Qf LAME EBA Negotiations Begin
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Very sad if that is true, however I still don't see how industrial action will improve the situation. 
Anyway now someone has moved this new thread to an old one I have lost interest.
Anyway now someone has moved this new thread to an old one I have lost interest.
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It staggers me how our "management" can blatantly lie to the media without even blinking. Can you tell that I have zero respect for our current "management"? Bring it on!!
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Just liars
In yesterday's media release this was written.
"Mr Strambi said the union leaders had shown their true colours by calling industrial action over the school holidays and then making a blatantly cynical offer for Qantas licensed engineers who are on strike to return to work for four times their normal pay."
Sure we are having an industrial fight but straight off the bat they start lying (again).
So far we've had 26% = 3% x 3yrs
$300 - $400 million claim
Free Qantas Club membership
Now 300% penalty rates
Some media has written the correct information in that it is overtime at double rates.
SP - What is the reply when you raise questions about statements like these? Why do they bother with ethic units in university degrees?
"Mr Strambi said the union leaders had shown their true colours by calling industrial action over the school holidays and then making a blatantly cynical offer for Qantas licensed engineers who are on strike to return to work for four times their normal pay."
Sure we are having an industrial fight but straight off the bat they start lying (again).
So far we've had 26% = 3% x 3yrs
$300 - $400 million claim
Free Qantas Club membership
Now 300% penalty rates
Some media has written the correct information in that it is overtime at double rates.
SP - What is the reply when you raise questions about statements like these? Why do they bother with ethic units in university degrees?
There will always be a caveat to 'striking'
School holidays
Ash clouds
Public holidays
Friday afternoons
Monday mornings
Little Johnny wants to watch his football team play
Regardless they are going to make a press release stating how;
I mean, why tell the truth when the media is just a repeater of PR spin.
Media =/= truth.
"Journalism" = dead.
School holidays
Ash clouds
Public holidays
Friday afternoons
Monday mornings
Little Johnny wants to watch his football team play
Regardless they are going to make a press release stating how;
..irresponsible it is to strike now and showing their true colours due to <insert imminent event here> and disrupting <100s/1000s/10000s/100000s/billions> and causing untold damage to <country/airline/industry/football>. Qantas refuses to negotiate with <terrorists/kamikazes/union thugs/Steve Purvinas>. Their total wage claim is <10%/free Qantas club access/40%/free Chairman's club access/180%> over <6months/1year/3years>. We've negotiated in <insert faith level here> for <minimum EBA negotiation time here (usually 2 years)>. We have no choice but to set up a base in <Malaysia/Singapore/Bali>. Qantas has lost <100million/200million/500million/6billion> this <month/year>.
Media =/= truth.
"Journalism" = dead.
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Notification number
3
Date of commencement of action
Tuesday 5th July 2011.
Time of action
The first 2 hours of any regularly rostered shift that commences between 0100 and midday of that day.
Participants
All ALAEA LAME members who are rostered to commence work in Perth Line Maintenance.
Nature of action
A 2 hour work stoppage.
3
Date of commencement of action
Tuesday 5th July 2011.
Time of action
The first 2 hours of any regularly rostered shift that commences between 0100 and midday of that day.
Participants
All ALAEA LAME members who are rostered to commence work in Perth Line Maintenance.
Nature of action
A 2 hour work stoppage.
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airsupport, who suggested having 2 hour stop work meetings were designed to save the company? Purely an instrument to assist in gaining their attention. May or may not work but if you don't fight , you lose. Yes things need to change but on whose terms? 
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As I tried to point out earlier, this makes NO sense now as someone has merged the thread I replied to into this one.
The original was...............
This infered there were to be rolling strikes to save the Company.
The original was...............
Ok, its game on for Engineers v QF
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The rolling strikes start next week as just announced in the Australian. THIS is the time for the public to be made aware of what is actually happening. Perhaps its also time for the pilots to join them. "We cannot continue to see the company go downhill under this board and management we the pilots and engineers are determined to save the company blah de dah de dah." Over to you fellas, time to unite?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The rolling strikes start next week as just announced in the Australian. THIS is the time for the public to be made aware of what is actually happening. Perhaps its also time for the pilots to join them. "We cannot continue to see the company go downhill under this board and management we the pilots and engineers are determined to save the company blah de dah de dah." Over to you fellas, time to unite?
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Ben sandilands piece in Crikey today
Qantas ‘strike’ theatrics need closer examination
June 29, 2011 – 12:34 pm, by Ben Sandilands
In a news environment in which the public generally wants the story in 30 seconds, the risk of ‘strikes’ at Qantas during the mid year school holidays being reported in emotive rather than factual terms is high.
Consider the headlines this morning about the licensed engineers taking strike action next Monday and Tuesday.
The ALAEA (Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association) is in fact taking protected industrial action with the approval of Fair Work Australia, under legislation which required it to overcome a series of legal hurdles designed specifically to prevent strikes of a scale and duration across all industries which historically severely damaged the national economy and public interest for much of the second half of the last century.
The ALAEA is also doing this as a consequence of no settlement of its dispute with Qantas over a new EBA having been reached despite the fact that both sides are dealing with an agreement of finite duration during which there was ample time to resolve differences.
This doesn’t necessarily mean the union side is completely right, or the management side completely wrong. It isn’t necessary for the public or Qantas investors to agree unreservedly with either side to work out that something is going badly wrong at Qantas. But it is necessary for far more details to be offered, and for questions to be asked about the elephant-in-the-room, which is the disclosure by Qantas that on August 24 it will announce a significant restructuring of what it claims are unsustainable international full service brand operations that threaten the very existence of the airline if it is not turned into an airline for the times, meaning the global competitive environment in which its competitors are thriving, and it is failing.
It may be that the only decent and reasonable thing for the ALAEA to do is work for nothing, and that its central claim, which is about job security rather than money, is totally absurd, and all Qantas maintenance work should be carried out in cheap workshops like those of Lufthansa Technik in Manila, which has recently been unfavorably reviewed by US authorities.
Sarcasm aside, Qantas deserves an opportunity to explain more lucidly than it has so far, why it handed control over something as central to its brand reputation for safety excellence as engine overhauls to an external third party, or even the manufacturer, as it did in the case of those nice but somewhat secretive people at Rolls-Royce, who didn’t see any need to keep it informed about certain minor issues with the Trent 900 engines on its A380s for example.
That’s one of the powerful arguments for virtual airlines, where you sell the brand but no longer take any responsibility for what supports the brand with third party total care contracts. You get to save money, remove a whole tier of experienced and knowledgeable people with their pesky traditions of standards, and all is well, until something blows up, as it did on QF32 last November.
That said, Qantas does confront some very serious disadvantages from its foreign competitors. They are not only smarter when it comes to scheduling and route structures and fleet choices, all areas where Qantas has been severely disadvantaged by better offerings, but advantaged by lower costs.
Those cost advantages are real, but they vary in nature. Emirates and Etihad don’t pay tax, and their workers don’t pay tax, which is a huge advantage. However Singapore Airlines, which does pay tax at the corporate and personal level, and does pay even more in the form of superannuation contributions, does have something that neither Emirates nor Qantas enjoy, which is aggressive depreciation allowances.
If it chooses, Singapore Airlines can use depreciation to make the Singaporean economy pay for its fleet investments over a short period of time. There is a good case to be made for Qantas (and Virgin Australia) to have access to aggressive depreciation schedules for fleet investments however there are other ways to minimise that problem through the use of lease deals and other structures.
It is reasonable to assume that a factor in Qantas pursuing off-shore arrangements or entities like Jetstar Asia is reducing its exposure to the lesser depreciation benefits of Australian fleet, as well as avoiding Australian labor terms and conditions.
To fully understand what Qantas has in store for its customers, its investors and its employees on August 24, it needs to reveal the true performance of its full service brands taking into account the gifting or transfer of aircraft and critical costs from them to its Jetstar franchise.
To date the guidance from Qantas seems more like an excuse for a poor performance, and a demonisation of its employees as renegades or kamikaze pilots when they have done nothing more than avail themselves of the industrial law of the land.
It also seem reasonable for the unions to consider ceasing all protected industrial action until August 24, when Qantas reveals how many of their members will lose their jobs and how quickly it will rebrand its jets as something other than the ‘Spirit of Australia.’
June 29, 2011 – 12:34 pm, by Ben Sandilands
In a news environment in which the public generally wants the story in 30 seconds, the risk of ‘strikes’ at Qantas during the mid year school holidays being reported in emotive rather than factual terms is high.
Consider the headlines this morning about the licensed engineers taking strike action next Monday and Tuesday.
The ALAEA (Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association) is in fact taking protected industrial action with the approval of Fair Work Australia, under legislation which required it to overcome a series of legal hurdles designed specifically to prevent strikes of a scale and duration across all industries which historically severely damaged the national economy and public interest for much of the second half of the last century.
The ALAEA is also doing this as a consequence of no settlement of its dispute with Qantas over a new EBA having been reached despite the fact that both sides are dealing with an agreement of finite duration during which there was ample time to resolve differences.
This doesn’t necessarily mean the union side is completely right, or the management side completely wrong. It isn’t necessary for the public or Qantas investors to agree unreservedly with either side to work out that something is going badly wrong at Qantas. But it is necessary for far more details to be offered, and for questions to be asked about the elephant-in-the-room, which is the disclosure by Qantas that on August 24 it will announce a significant restructuring of what it claims are unsustainable international full service brand operations that threaten the very existence of the airline if it is not turned into an airline for the times, meaning the global competitive environment in which its competitors are thriving, and it is failing.
It may be that the only decent and reasonable thing for the ALAEA to do is work for nothing, and that its central claim, which is about job security rather than money, is totally absurd, and all Qantas maintenance work should be carried out in cheap workshops like those of Lufthansa Technik in Manila, which has recently been unfavorably reviewed by US authorities.
Sarcasm aside, Qantas deserves an opportunity to explain more lucidly than it has so far, why it handed control over something as central to its brand reputation for safety excellence as engine overhauls to an external third party, or even the manufacturer, as it did in the case of those nice but somewhat secretive people at Rolls-Royce, who didn’t see any need to keep it informed about certain minor issues with the Trent 900 engines on its A380s for example.
That’s one of the powerful arguments for virtual airlines, where you sell the brand but no longer take any responsibility for what supports the brand with third party total care contracts. You get to save money, remove a whole tier of experienced and knowledgeable people with their pesky traditions of standards, and all is well, until something blows up, as it did on QF32 last November.
That said, Qantas does confront some very serious disadvantages from its foreign competitors. They are not only smarter when it comes to scheduling and route structures and fleet choices, all areas where Qantas has been severely disadvantaged by better offerings, but advantaged by lower costs.
Those cost advantages are real, but they vary in nature. Emirates and Etihad don’t pay tax, and their workers don’t pay tax, which is a huge advantage. However Singapore Airlines, which does pay tax at the corporate and personal level, and does pay even more in the form of superannuation contributions, does have something that neither Emirates nor Qantas enjoy, which is aggressive depreciation allowances.
If it chooses, Singapore Airlines can use depreciation to make the Singaporean economy pay for its fleet investments over a short period of time. There is a good case to be made for Qantas (and Virgin Australia) to have access to aggressive depreciation schedules for fleet investments however there are other ways to minimise that problem through the use of lease deals and other structures.
It is reasonable to assume that a factor in Qantas pursuing off-shore arrangements or entities like Jetstar Asia is reducing its exposure to the lesser depreciation benefits of Australian fleet, as well as avoiding Australian labor terms and conditions.
To fully understand what Qantas has in store for its customers, its investors and its employees on August 24, it needs to reveal the true performance of its full service brands taking into account the gifting or transfer of aircraft and critical costs from them to its Jetstar franchise.
To date the guidance from Qantas seems more like an excuse for a poor performance, and a demonisation of its employees as renegades or kamikaze pilots when they have done nothing more than avail themselves of the industrial law of the land.
It also seem reasonable for the unions to consider ceasing all protected industrial action until August 24, when Qantas reveals how many of their members will lose their jobs and how quickly it will rebrand its jets as something other than the ‘Spirit of Australia.’
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Have a good think on how this will affect you.
Guys, if nothing else when you go into this action, consider how it may affect you and your family life from here on in. Believe me, I've been there.
Can you afford no income for a period, or worse, no job. If it's no job, what can you do to support your family, home, lifestyle etc? Who will employ you knowing you took action againt Qantas. Give it very serious thought!!!!!
Can you afford no income for a period, or worse, no job. If it's no job, what can you do to support your family, home, lifestyle etc? Who will employ you knowing you took action againt Qantas. Give it very serious thought!!!!!
Last edited by Deck Zone; 29th Jun 2011 at 10:45.
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Can you afford no income for a period, or worse, no job. If it's no job, what can you do to support your family, home, lifestyle etc? Who will employ you knowing you took action againt Qantas. Give it very serious thought!!!!!
Deck Zone,
You seem very concerned about our action this time aruond.
You also seemed very concerned with our action last time around.
And interestingly, on a search of your username's previous posts, of which a lot of them have since been deleted, however the summary of your posts all are of a similar cautious tale.
Thanks for your concern
You seem very concerned about our action this time aruond.
You also seemed very concerned with our action last time around.
I think all LAME's should take a very deep breath, open your eyes and make a rational decision. If the decision is to fight this, you need to be prepared to fight to the death of your employment. That is a real possibility and you must accept this at the start.
If QF decides to take us on this time around, you know they've made a decision to go all the way. There will be no half measures like allowing LAME's to have 4 hour stoppages and bans. They have the advantage because they know how well the members have stuck together in the past. Solidarity has not been one of our strong points.
Consider how you'll survive with no income for an undetermined period of time. Are you or can you place yourself into this position and survive?
Prepare for the worst before leaping and we may come out the other side.
Good luck to all.
If QF decides to take us on this time around, you know they've made a decision to go all the way. There will be no half measures like allowing LAME's to have 4 hour stoppages and bans. They have the advantage because they know how well the members have stuck together in the past. Solidarity has not been one of our strong points.
Consider how you'll survive with no income for an undetermined period of time. Are you or can you place yourself into this position and survive?
Prepare for the worst before leaping and we may come out the other side.
Good luck to all.
And interestingly, on a search of your username's previous posts, of which a lot of them have since been deleted, however the summary of your posts all are of a similar cautious tale.
Thanks for your concern
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Do you know what happened to the Patrick guys that were locked out a month or two ago??
Maritime Union had bans on certain jobs going that as I understand rendered the ports inoperative. That's the attractiveness of the bans I guess. Patricks don't have to accept the bans and didn't and some workers weren't paid according to the press.
ALAEA have stop work going, not limitations on certain roles. If LAMEs work 8 hours then they'll get paid for 6. Simple as that.
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Notification number
4
Date of commencement of action
Wednesday 6th July 2011.
Time of action
The first 2 hours of any regularly rostered shift that commences between 0100 and midday of that day.
Participants
All ALAEA LAME members who are rostered to commence work in Brisbane Line Maintenance.
Nature of action
A 2 hour work stoppage.
4
Date of commencement of action
Wednesday 6th July 2011.
Time of action
The first 2 hours of any regularly rostered shift that commences between 0100 and midday of that day.
Participants
All ALAEA LAME members who are rostered to commence work in Brisbane Line Maintenance.
Nature of action
A 2 hour work stoppage.
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Can you afford no income for a period, or worse, no job.
Most of our jobs are gone, we just haven't been told yet. Reading this thread should make that obvious. We all have concerns about this, QF knows this and will not address it. Why?????
This is our only chance and they know it, which is why they will fight tooth and nail, and so will we.
Last edited by Ngineer; 30th Jun 2011 at 05:18.