Pilots of Australia - time to unite - Meeting Aug 23
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If the unions are looking for some inspiration to get the public on side here is something I have found in regards to cadet ships and inexperience.
Maybe use the line:
"You wouldn't put a Learner Driver in charge of Road Train. J* wants to, but with aircraft and 300 people on board!"
Nothing like a scare campaign!
Maybe use the line:
"You wouldn't put a Learner Driver in charge of Road Train. J* wants to, but with aircraft and 300 people on board!"
Nothing like a scare campaign!
I really think you guys should take your discussions elsewhere ... such as a member's only forum.
The more you discuss here, the more intelligence (as in information, not nouse) your "opposition" gets.
The more you discuss here, the greater the potential for frustration and mis-interpretation of posts ... the more chance for antagonism and dis-unity.
Get your Unions to provide you with an appropriate private forum.
The more you discuss here, the more intelligence (as in information, not nouse) your "opposition" gets.
The more you discuss here, the greater the potential for frustration and mis-interpretation of posts ... the more chance for antagonism and dis-unity.
Get your Unions to provide you with an appropriate private forum.
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I'm new to this issue, and new to the thread...but the last couple of posts have it.
AIPA should be placing advertisements on TV and billboards around the country showing a Jetstar airplane with an L on it, just like the piccy above. Liability? Jetstar would have to prove slander. Hard to do when HISTORY shows otherwise.
But none of this is happening. Instead, ratpoison asks what the hell's going on, and Keg et al rip into him. Right. I got it. Don't question the Holy authority that is AIPA. Don't dare ask if the top knobs have got it right....
One thing the internet's done is educate people to inadequacies or, often, downright incompetence of those in power. Witness blogs vs. Fox News, blogs vs. Greenpeace, blogs vs. any false reporting (IPCC anyone?).
Unless AIPA scoop the good oil from people like ratpoison, this game is lost. Hold onto the old way of doing things - whereby the assets and minds of mere plebs are not utilized, polled or tapped into, and the over-educated mongrel accountant running Crapstar will have his way.
Bring on the scare campaign. Back it up with statistics. Back it up with what ratpoison posted at 02.03 today....or don't. Stick to the old way of believing your masters, and eat the crow dished out by the bald eagle Buchanan.
AIPA should be placing advertisements on TV and billboards around the country showing a Jetstar airplane with an L on it, just like the piccy above. Liability? Jetstar would have to prove slander. Hard to do when HISTORY shows otherwise.
But none of this is happening. Instead, ratpoison asks what the hell's going on, and Keg et al rip into him. Right. I got it. Don't question the Holy authority that is AIPA. Don't dare ask if the top knobs have got it right....
One thing the internet's done is educate people to inadequacies or, often, downright incompetence of those in power. Witness blogs vs. Fox News, blogs vs. Greenpeace, blogs vs. any false reporting (IPCC anyone?).
Unless AIPA scoop the good oil from people like ratpoison, this game is lost. Hold onto the old way of doing things - whereby the assets and minds of mere plebs are not utilized, polled or tapped into, and the over-educated mongrel accountant running Crapstar will have his way.
Bring on the scare campaign. Back it up with statistics. Back it up with what ratpoison posted at 02.03 today....or don't. Stick to the old way of believing your masters, and eat the crow dished out by the bald eagle Buchanan.
ratpoison and mustman, you guys have hit the nail on the head.
The only way to stop the offshoring of Australian jobs, the only way to bring the profession back to where it belongs, and the only way to put the power and therefore unity back into our hands, is to remove the fangs from the snake!
By that I mean remove the tool with which Jetstar management, and all others who will follow suit, are using to drive a wedge between us. Cheap Labour! For years the lowering of Pilots conditions has been the product of oversupply. When the natural order of things finally swung the pendulum back, these (too clever for their own good) airline bosses and bean counters have turned to the young, impressionable, but most disturbing of all, the inexperienced, to continue the trend!
The only body that can stop this rot is CASA, and more to the point their political masters. Use the events of 18 months ago in the U.S. and the subsequent actions of the American Senate with the banning of all non ATPL holders from the flightdeck, and ask why aren't we doing the same?
Australian airline managers are hurtling down the same self destructive path as their American cousins, without fear or concept of the end consequenses. I tell you, it's like watching a baby with a machinegun!
The only way to stop the offshoring of Australian jobs, the only way to bring the profession back to where it belongs, and the only way to put the power and therefore unity back into our hands, is to remove the fangs from the snake!
By that I mean remove the tool with which Jetstar management, and all others who will follow suit, are using to drive a wedge between us. Cheap Labour! For years the lowering of Pilots conditions has been the product of oversupply. When the natural order of things finally swung the pendulum back, these (too clever for their own good) airline bosses and bean counters have turned to the young, impressionable, but most disturbing of all, the inexperienced, to continue the trend!
The only body that can stop this rot is CASA, and more to the point their political masters. Use the events of 18 months ago in the U.S. and the subsequent actions of the American Senate with the banning of all non ATPL holders from the flightdeck, and ask why aren't we doing the same?
Australian airline managers are hurtling down the same self destructive path as their American cousins, without fear or concept of the end consequenses. I tell you, it's like watching a baby with a machinegun!
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AFAP have done nothing for anyone in the Jet* group
Did the TWU turn up? If not they're not worth their salt.
Mustman - PERFECT. Know just the spot. Just outside Syd domestic.
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PERFECT. Know just the spot. Just outside Syd domestic.
Was thinking about those in airport billboards you see as you walk around. Also the approaches to the airport as you drive in. Can't imagine paying for some advertising space would cost a huge amount in comparison to the fees paid to lawyers for every court case.
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Billboards
Very expensive indeed. I'd put my money where my mouth is if called upon. Of course I'd have to change union first as my bunch aren't interested in the cause.
I reckon the billboards would have more momentum than lawyers and gee it'd be a close call which one costs more.
In the meantime the best you can do is let your cab driver hair dresser and relatives know the score. Word of mouth my friend - its free advertising.
I reckon the billboards would have more momentum than lawyers and gee it'd be a close call which one costs more.
In the meantime the best you can do is let your cab driver hair dresser and relatives know the score. Word of mouth my friend - its free advertising.
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As an unemployed jet captain, I’m disgusted at how low these greedy ceos can go to earn their bonuses.
I looked at applying for a job in SIN a while back. I decided against it.
Look very carefully before signing the dotted line and realise in Asia the contract you sign can and will be changed if they wish, you have very little rights over there unless you pay large lawyer fees. However you still may not win.
Rent is expensive, as mentioned i'd expect around $3500-$6000 a month.
I doubt you will buy a car. The certificate to buy a small car is about $34000 on top of the price of the car (around $70000-80000 for a compact car). So around $110,000 for a compact car.
Try getting a taxi there when it’s raining, or busy times of day, almost impossible.
If your married, think seriously, will your partner be happy living in a small apartment with no car to get around.
If you’ve got kids, forget about it. High school fees, long waiting lists, large deposit to register your Childs interest in that school. Transport without a car.
Medical insurance.
I assume the $200,000SGD mentioned was for a Captain. (Is that a 1st year Captain). does that include allowances, if any.
What are the FOs going to be paid?
Singapore is not a cheap place to live.
So from a Captains $200,000SGD salary subtract $42,000-$72000SGD for rent.
Now do they same for the FOs salary.
Then consider the exchange rate. Hmmm.
Has this ceo really looked at what the cost of living will be for pilots based there? As if he really cares. You sign up, its your problem.
I’m sure they won’t be paying your rent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_Entitlement
I get irate at these greedy arrogant ceos on multimillion dollar salaries, whose only skill (or lack of) is to degrade the staffs pay and conditions to increase profits. Without the staff they are constantly screwing, you dont have an airline, all you have is several 170 million dollar jets parked up on the tarmac accruing parking fees.
When they fail, they leave, or are removed and paid out large bonuses, as written into their contracts
If they were starting a new Singapore registered airline, no problem, but to out base/outsource an Australian airline is obscene.
A pilot who left my old company for SQ cargo lasted about 18 months before moving to EK. I believe SQ cargo did not pay rent, whereas SQ mainline does. (dont quote me on that).
So I very much doubt J* pilots will stick it out there on the money they intend to pay.
IMHO it would only suit young single Captains and FOs and they are likely to move to other airlines in Asia or the ME once they get the opportunity. Expect a high turnover of pilots once the market moves again.
If you are going to live the expat lifestyle, do it for a major national airline on better pay and conditions than a budget airline.
I looked at applying for a job in SIN a while back. I decided against it.
Look very carefully before signing the dotted line and realise in Asia the contract you sign can and will be changed if they wish, you have very little rights over there unless you pay large lawyer fees. However you still may not win.
Rent is expensive, as mentioned i'd expect around $3500-$6000 a month.
I doubt you will buy a car. The certificate to buy a small car is about $34000 on top of the price of the car (around $70000-80000 for a compact car). So around $110,000 for a compact car.
Try getting a taxi there when it’s raining, or busy times of day, almost impossible.
If your married, think seriously, will your partner be happy living in a small apartment with no car to get around.
If you’ve got kids, forget about it. High school fees, long waiting lists, large deposit to register your Childs interest in that school. Transport without a car.
Medical insurance.
I assume the $200,000SGD mentioned was for a Captain. (Is that a 1st year Captain). does that include allowances, if any.
What are the FOs going to be paid?
Singapore is not a cheap place to live.
So from a Captains $200,000SGD salary subtract $42,000-$72000SGD for rent.
Now do they same for the FOs salary.
Then consider the exchange rate. Hmmm.
Has this ceo really looked at what the cost of living will be for pilots based there? As if he really cares. You sign up, its your problem.
I’m sure they won’t be paying your rent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_Entitlement
I get irate at these greedy arrogant ceos on multimillion dollar salaries, whose only skill (or lack of) is to degrade the staffs pay and conditions to increase profits. Without the staff they are constantly screwing, you dont have an airline, all you have is several 170 million dollar jets parked up on the tarmac accruing parking fees.
When they fail, they leave, or are removed and paid out large bonuses, as written into their contracts
If they were starting a new Singapore registered airline, no problem, but to out base/outsource an Australian airline is obscene.
A pilot who left my old company for SQ cargo lasted about 18 months before moving to EK. I believe SQ cargo did not pay rent, whereas SQ mainline does. (dont quote me on that).
So I very much doubt J* pilots will stick it out there on the money they intend to pay.
IMHO it would only suit young single Captains and FOs and they are likely to move to other airlines in Asia or the ME once they get the opportunity. Expect a high turnover of pilots once the market moves again.
If you are going to live the expat lifestyle, do it for a major national airline on better pay and conditions than a budget airline.
Last edited by Mr Pilot 2007; 31st Aug 2010 at 08:20.
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Mr Pilot:
Yes you've nailed it really. If the pilots are not married to Singaporean spouses and/or do not have Singapore PR, they will not be eligible for all sorts of grants and healthcare subsidises that locals have access to. The low tax then becomes immaterial.
Do the Jetstar pilots who signed for the SIN base know what they are getting themselves into? I am assuming that some would be Singapore residents, but with SIA Group, Tiger, Jetstar, Emirates etc all actively recruiting pilots, the number of Singapore residents who would be available in the pilot pool out of SIN would be close to zero.
Secondly, while technically Jetstar Asia is a Singaporean airline with a Singapore AOC, it is for all purposes and intents an Australian airline masquerading as a Singaporean airline, taking the air rights which SIA has painstakingly built up over the past 2-3 decades.
I am surprised SIA has not challenged Jetstar Asia's Singapore AOC, because Although it is 51% owned by some Singapore resident, that guy is in effect a Qantas proxy, and the entire 51% stake was funded by Qantas. As such, Jetstar Asia cannot really be thought of as a Singapore-controlled airline. The CEO of Jetstar Asia reports directly to Bruce Buchanan.
Malaysia tried to challenge Jetstar Asia's AOC when they first started KUL flights. That was in the end sorted out when lobbying to the Malaysian govt resulted in them accepting that 3K was a designated Singaporean carrier.
From Singapore, Jetstar Asia can get very liberal access to the EU, much of Asia and virtually unlimited 3rd and 4th freedoms to India and China.
SIA probably does not challenge Jetstar Asia's SIN AOC because they don't want to come across as not welcoming competition. But I don't think it's very fair to SQ when QF can set up shop in its home base and slowly take the air rights SQ has negotiated for and built up over the years. I bet you once JQ starts SIN-ATH and SIN-FCO, SQ will withdraw from those markets.
(This is different from TR setting up shop in Australia, because it does not involve scarce and valuable international air rights, and I would hardly put Adelaide-Gold Coast in the same category as Singapore-Beijing or Singapore-Rome)
Yes you've nailed it really. If the pilots are not married to Singaporean spouses and/or do not have Singapore PR, they will not be eligible for all sorts of grants and healthcare subsidises that locals have access to. The low tax then becomes immaterial.
Do the Jetstar pilots who signed for the SIN base know what they are getting themselves into? I am assuming that some would be Singapore residents, but with SIA Group, Tiger, Jetstar, Emirates etc all actively recruiting pilots, the number of Singapore residents who would be available in the pilot pool out of SIN would be close to zero.
Secondly, while technically Jetstar Asia is a Singaporean airline with a Singapore AOC, it is for all purposes and intents an Australian airline masquerading as a Singaporean airline, taking the air rights which SIA has painstakingly built up over the past 2-3 decades.
I am surprised SIA has not challenged Jetstar Asia's Singapore AOC, because Although it is 51% owned by some Singapore resident, that guy is in effect a Qantas proxy, and the entire 51% stake was funded by Qantas. As such, Jetstar Asia cannot really be thought of as a Singapore-controlled airline. The CEO of Jetstar Asia reports directly to Bruce Buchanan.
Malaysia tried to challenge Jetstar Asia's AOC when they first started KUL flights. That was in the end sorted out when lobbying to the Malaysian govt resulted in them accepting that 3K was a designated Singaporean carrier.
From Singapore, Jetstar Asia can get very liberal access to the EU, much of Asia and virtually unlimited 3rd and 4th freedoms to India and China.
SIA probably does not challenge Jetstar Asia's SIN AOC because they don't want to come across as not welcoming competition. But I don't think it's very fair to SQ when QF can set up shop in its home base and slowly take the air rights SQ has negotiated for and built up over the years. I bet you once JQ starts SIN-ATH and SIN-FCO, SQ will withdraw from those markets.
(This is different from TR setting up shop in Australia, because it does not involve scarce and valuable international air rights, and I would hardly put Adelaide-Gold Coast in the same category as Singapore-Beijing or Singapore-Rome)
No billboards required
A clever viral marketing video would be more effective and cheaper! There are some links to youtube in the ME forum by the Emirates pilots.
Nunc est bibendum
ratpoison
Your original post alluded to inaction. You then followed it up with this little gem:
If you can't see that your statement here is ludicrous beyond belief, and gives comfort to management by appearing to pit pilot against pilot, then you're the one who needs a lesson in comprehension.
Wow, you're good. I don't think any of us would have thought to use a PR company without you being around. I don't think any of us would have thought to suggest that to AIPA via PPRUNE rather than talking to a COM member directly. I stand in awe at your obvious insight.
Big white bird. I don't jump on ratpoison for bagging AIPA. What I did do is to jump on ratpoison for making stupid comments that are quite obviously opposite to the reality. I've been known to take the odd shot at AIPA myself if I felt it was warranted and it's for that reason that your assertion about not questioning the 'holy authority of AIPA' fit into the same boat as ratpoison's. Ill informed and ignorant of the reality. As for the rest of the lecture, thanks for nothing. I already know how to engage with members on the AIPA COM and try and influence them. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
What I do know is that pontificating on PPRUNE achieves little. Pontificating about motivations which are demonstrably ignorant or false gives management a huge leg up.
Have a nice day lads.
... it's all about INACTION Keg.
Your original post alluded to inaction. You then followed it up with this little gem:
Oh that's right, the long haul EBA is up for negotiation and we don't want to piss off the QF board before this do we!!
USE the media and get a PR company. I hope it does not get to the point where I have to spit it out on the garage floor for you to read and digest.
Big white bird. I don't jump on ratpoison for bagging AIPA. What I did do is to jump on ratpoison for making stupid comments that are quite obviously opposite to the reality. I've been known to take the odd shot at AIPA myself if I felt it was warranted and it's for that reason that your assertion about not questioning the 'holy authority of AIPA' fit into the same boat as ratpoison's. Ill informed and ignorant of the reality. As for the rest of the lecture, thanks for nothing. I already know how to engage with members on the AIPA COM and try and influence them. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
What I do know is that pontificating on PPRUNE achieves little. Pontificating about motivations which are demonstrably ignorant or false gives management a huge leg up.
Have a nice day lads.
I too find it interesting that AIPA are representing Jetstar Pilots when all their flying has come at the expence of mainline pilots. Its a pretty bitter pill to swallow and i was really pissed about it originally. But you know what....its happened, and we wont get it back. Its no use complaining about AIPA or even AFAP its already happened. Our conditions are being eroded to a point where we will have no basis to do any bargaining in new EBA's. And that is what management want. And it is exactly what is happening. At least the meeting showed that to a point we have a united front.
It is perplexing that all this rhetoric is aimed at BB. As was said previously he is just a puppet to AJ. I thought the Qantas board would be the place to be lobbying by the Unions. They get fed all this crap by upper management, why not bypass management and let the board really know what really is happenning within the airline. Would this work? dunno, but i think it would be more use than a letter to BB.
Oh and to all you young pilots panicking to do anything to get a quick command PLEASE think about your long term employement conditions and what you are doing to your fellow proffesionals. You may get those four bars at a young age, but you will pay for it for the rest of your career.
It is perplexing that all this rhetoric is aimed at BB. As was said previously he is just a puppet to AJ. I thought the Qantas board would be the place to be lobbying by the Unions. They get fed all this crap by upper management, why not bypass management and let the board really know what really is happenning within the airline. Would this work? dunno, but i think it would be more use than a letter to BB.
Oh and to all you young pilots panicking to do anything to get a quick command PLEASE think about your long term employement conditions and what you are doing to your fellow proffesionals. You may get those four bars at a young age, but you will pay for it for the rest of your career.
When you live....
PR war
The billboard of a 320 with 'L' is excellent. AIPA should also make use of the thread about Oxford ripping off Jetstar trainees by documenting and using the fact that Jetstar appear to be discriminating against more experienced pilots (i.e. ATPL = no start).
Difficult to argue they cant get pilots when they behave like that.
UTR
Difficult to argue they cant get pilots when they behave like that.
UTR
I too find it interesting that AIPA are representing Jetstar Pilots when all their flying has come at the expence of mainline pilots.
In the current industrial climate, it is important that as many pilots as possible in the Qantas group are members of AIPA. That is what this thread is all about - stand unified, or fall by the wayside. It's that simple. I have said before that those that are suspicious of AIPA's motivation or actions in the past are just making it easier for those pilots considering joining AIPA to waver and back off. This action just falls into management's hands and makes their job so much easier.
In targetting Jetstar initially, management are taking on a group of pilots that are not as heavily unionised as mainline. This is a test case for them and, I suspect, that if offshore shelf companies are allowed to go through to the keeper without a backlash from the pilot group, then there is nothing to stop a similar arrangement being put in place for the introduction of the "mainline Qantas" 787s.
I think that Qantas has been working to a carefully orchestrated industrial strategy for at least 10 years. Jetconnect and then Jetstar were the initial shots fired in breaking down mainline. Now the same tactics are being used to subvert Jetstar pilots' T&Cs. You should be more motivated than ever to join AIPA and make your voices heard. You should not be questioning AIPA's motivations because to do so just makes it easier for Qantas's industrial goals to be achieved.
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Here's a copy of the T&C's for Australian based crew -Air Pilots Award 2010.
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Here's a copy of the T&C's for Australian based crew -Air Pilots Award 2010.