AIPA V QF Jetconnect
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wideglider - whilst i can appreciate your concern - please replace yourself in a position that Qantas or some other Airline were to come in and undercut your position with a) less experience b) not having to jump the same recruitment hurdles and c) undercut the **** out of you, take your jobs and work for half the price.
So whilst i can sympathise with your plea for professionalism, please understand the position of the people that you are daily shafting!
So whilst i can sympathise with your plea for professionalism, please understand the position of the people that you are daily shafting!
wideglider, have another read of my post #25. This legal action is against QF management not against JetConnect pilots. The economic advantages of flying the Tasman from NZ bases means that even if JetConnect pilots are paid QF pilots T & C's, they will still do the flying.
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Wideglider,
You are flying a Qantas B737 for terms and conditions that are less favorable than those pilots in mainline Qantas.
This is a mechanism setup by Qantas to lower wages and conditions.
It has nothing to do with the individual.
That is a problem. It has set a precedent.
Surely you can see that.
You are flying a Qantas B737 for terms and conditions that are less favorable than those pilots in mainline Qantas.
This is a mechanism setup by Qantas to lower wages and conditions.
It has nothing to do with the individual.
That is a problem. It has set a precedent.
Surely you can see that.
It has nothing to do with the individual.
That is a problem. It has set a precedent.
Surely you can see that.
That is a problem. It has set a precedent.
Surely you can see that.
I think most, if not all, are quitely supportive of your cause!
Some may think that the Jetconnect guys should have stayed flying their Dash 8s and B1900's on 55k a year instead of joining the domestic and Tasman QF branded operation on 100k PA 8, 9 or 10 years ago. Fair enough, that is your opinion and if you personally would have had the foresite back then (from your position in a Kiwi turbo prop job, not from a comfy QF 2nd officers position ) to turn the job down because guys in a different country get paid more, and even though it was industry standard pay for your country on offer, then good on you. You would have been railing against basic human nature to get ahead and it would have been difficult to turn down the opportunity to double the income, security etc of your family, so good on you for having that conviction.
Others, most, just took the job if they were offered it and enjoyed flying New Zealand domestic routes in QF branded aircraft while getting paid what they obviously thought was fair. If they were getting paid the same rates as QF mainline they would have been on a much nicer wicket than AirNZ domestic 73 pilots.
Sometimes when I am sitting in my hotel in Japan or Honalulu I wish I had joined them when I had the chance. Everyone makes their own choices, and in NZ Jetconnect is a good one. Not much makes me madder than when people talk about their right to a job. You won't here people say that they have a right to a job unless they were born into very fortunate circumstances. Where you are born is happenstance, I was lucky enough to be born in Australia and I'm making the most of all the opportunities that afforded me, but I know that I don't really have a right to anything.
PS I know nobody mentioned having a right to the flying on this thread, I just felt like having a rant
Join Date: May 2007
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Funny how a little ash cloud free's up one time so turning to the computer I end up on Prune!!
standard, I had typed quite a long reply to you but flicking between web pages I inadvertaintly closed Prune losing everything. In reflection probably for the best, so here's my short reply!
I do understand, Jetstar NZ did this too us and indoing so closed the CHC base causing significant problems for many! I hold no grudge to the Jetstar NZ pilots, indeed some are friends!
Also 15 years ago, at a company I worked for, we were in contract negotiations. The inevitable stalemate ocurred! Strike action resulted!
The company replied by placing full page adds in the national papers say what overpaid [ yes they quoted highest paid rated, not the average, sound familiar.] underworked primma donna's we all were! Being in the top 5% of income earners, the public believed the company line. [again sound familiar.] This really p.ss.d many of us off!!! Unfortunately for the company there were jobs available in Europe, the desert and Hong Kong as well as others, so many of us, including myself, left!
This left the company with a critical manning shortage that took quite a while to sort out but they did get through it.
In saying this I am not recommending this to any Mainline pilots as I think you would possibly be playing right into mangement's hands and save them a fortune in redundancy
With regard to your points,
a, You are "Qantas", so you must be better, more experienced, than me as an individual or group for group! Whow, big call fellow! The whole world would be interested in that one!
b, When I joined Jetconnect the Qantas HR lady over from Syd told me during my interview that the assessment criteria I and the others went through was the same as that used for Mainline. Having never applied to Mainline or Air NZ for that matter due to my aversion to back of the clock and long haul flying after doing many years of night freight, I have no idea if this was true. All I can say is I have never, not got a job, I have applied for!
c, I know this is simplified but mangement set the rates, I just "fly's me aeroplane" where they tell me!
Tempo, Yes, This is the situation we have found ourselves in and we are all facing the problem to different degree's.
Going Boeing, I have re-read your post but I am a realist.
Chances are in several months, I may be paid more money, I may continue as I am today, I may have an Orange Star on my tail or I may be applying for a new job, hoping that my previous good luck with job hunting still holds true.
To summarise I DO understand, I DO sympathise, I WILL support in any way I can!
May I also say that in many posts there are pilots blaming other pilots for their problems when in many instances it is the manouvering of the mangement, present and past, that have created these situations!
Perhaps the time for understanding and forgiveness is upon us, so that mutual support and unity might just help everyone prevail!
Or perhaps Sunfish is right!
Back to my original posts theme, can we not be civil to each other?
framer, I would go fishing with you! Those that know me will understand this statement!
Wideglider.
standard, I had typed quite a long reply to you but flicking between web pages I inadvertaintly closed Prune losing everything. In reflection probably for the best, so here's my short reply!
I do understand, Jetstar NZ did this too us and indoing so closed the CHC base causing significant problems for many! I hold no grudge to the Jetstar NZ pilots, indeed some are friends!
Also 15 years ago, at a company I worked for, we were in contract negotiations. The inevitable stalemate ocurred! Strike action resulted!
The company replied by placing full page adds in the national papers say what overpaid [ yes they quoted highest paid rated, not the average, sound familiar.] underworked primma donna's we all were! Being in the top 5% of income earners, the public believed the company line. [again sound familiar.] This really p.ss.d many of us off!!! Unfortunately for the company there were jobs available in Europe, the desert and Hong Kong as well as others, so many of us, including myself, left!
This left the company with a critical manning shortage that took quite a while to sort out but they did get through it.
In saying this I am not recommending this to any Mainline pilots as I think you would possibly be playing right into mangement's hands and save them a fortune in redundancy
With regard to your points,
a, You are "Qantas", so you must be better, more experienced, than me as an individual or group for group! Whow, big call fellow! The whole world would be interested in that one!
b, When I joined Jetconnect the Qantas HR lady over from Syd told me during my interview that the assessment criteria I and the others went through was the same as that used for Mainline. Having never applied to Mainline or Air NZ for that matter due to my aversion to back of the clock and long haul flying after doing many years of night freight, I have no idea if this was true. All I can say is I have never, not got a job, I have applied for!
c, I know this is simplified but mangement set the rates, I just "fly's me aeroplane" where they tell me!
Tempo, Yes, This is the situation we have found ourselves in and we are all facing the problem to different degree's.
Going Boeing, I have re-read your post but I am a realist.
Chances are in several months, I may be paid more money, I may continue as I am today, I may have an Orange Star on my tail or I may be applying for a new job, hoping that my previous good luck with job hunting still holds true.
To summarise I DO understand, I DO sympathise, I WILL support in any way I can!
May I also say that in many posts there are pilots blaming other pilots for their problems when in many instances it is the manouvering of the mangement, present and past, that have created these situations!
Perhaps the time for understanding and forgiveness is upon us, so that mutual support and unity might just help everyone prevail!
Or perhaps Sunfish is right!
Back to my original posts theme, can we not be civil to each other?
framer, I would go fishing with you! Those that know me will understand this statement!
Wideglider.
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The fact of the matter is Qantas management have found a loophole in the current cabotage, IR and sales act legislation and are exploiting it to maximize their profits (read management bonuses not company profits). I don't agree with it on the grounds it is sold as a Qantas flight, not a codeshare or jetconnect flight. But then again we get the same thing with Jetstar, cobham, alliance. This is nothing against the actual pilots who are trying to make a living. It's the slimy management and marketing tactics on a march to degrade conditions by pitting us against each other. Jetconnect pilots are here to stay, as are Jetstar, cobham and alliance. Management need to acknowledge however that is they want to sell a Qantas flight then they either pay a Qantas fair wage OR they let the public know it is in fact a subsidiary they will be flying with at time of booking... I'm sure others don't see it that way it's simply my over simplified opinion on the current situation.
Australia has a unique relationship with our trans Tasman friends. The problem is now that this strategy has worked it will be the normal management pursuit to divide and conquer through loopholes, offshoring and cost cuttig. Instead of competing fairly and ethically on a superior product. Not everyone drives a scooter in Australia... This isn't Asia where cheapest is best. Pay a fair rate, engage your best assets, providing the best customer experience for a FAIR FARE. $29 fares and pissed of customers will not return dividends, will not increase wages, productivity, or efficiencies. A Qantas pilot on a Qantas plane flying a Qantas passenger... Pretty easy!!
Australia has a unique relationship with our trans Tasman friends. The problem is now that this strategy has worked it will be the normal management pursuit to divide and conquer through loopholes, offshoring and cost cuttig. Instead of competing fairly and ethically on a superior product. Not everyone drives a scooter in Australia... This isn't Asia where cheapest is best. Pay a fair rate, engage your best assets, providing the best customer experience for a FAIR FARE. $29 fares and pissed of customers will not return dividends, will not increase wages, productivity, or efficiencies. A Qantas pilot on a Qantas plane flying a Qantas passenger... Pretty easy!!
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Firsty thank you to our Oz kuzzys!! ALPA have no political teeth in NZ we have no EBA we need this help! thanks guys for taking a stand for which 99% of JC PB JQ pilots are all very much behind.
Hoping to come in with the big win and get the NZ and OZ industry back were it should be and a stop the race to the bottom
The small amout of people that are against this the bunch old farts dont care about the rest of us and want to protect themselfs.
Dare I say it alot of these OZ, NZ based companys are made up of rot.. our 89 friends who cant get back home and are not in the unions dont care about anyone but themselfs, ruining it for whole industry (history repeats?) and as it was back then these peoples attitude is still the same... just a shamefull existance in the airline industry
Big thanks from many "Kiwi" pilots looking forward to a great result
Hoping to come in with the big win and get the NZ and OZ industry back were it should be and a stop the race to the bottom
The small amout of people that are against this the bunch old farts dont care about the rest of us and want to protect themselfs.
Dare I say it alot of these OZ, NZ based companys are made up of rot.. our 89 friends who cant get back home and are not in the unions dont care about anyone but themselfs, ruining it for whole industry (history repeats?) and as it was back then these peoples attitude is still the same... just a shamefull existance in the airline industry
Big thanks from many "Kiwi" pilots looking forward to a great result
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Jetconnect was formed by Qantas in July 2001 by Geoffrey James Dixon from Mascot in Sydney. Well that was the chap that signed the legal documentation from the Qantas legal team in Mascot Sydney.
As per the NZ companies register online. Check it out, quite interesting reading. Sorry to burst your bubble.
As per the NZ companies register online. Check it out, quite interesting reading. Sorry to burst your bubble.
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Groaner is well aware that Qantas started JetConnect as discussed in the thread Qantas Earnings (Jetconnect). (27 May 2011)When shown the proof / Proof he just ignores it and carries on with the fantasy.
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OK, I'll bite.
Jetconnect (the operation, I assume people are more interested in that than the shell company registrations?) was originally an AWAS wet-lease operation for Qantas (in other words, an AWAS AOC, AWAS tech crew, AWAS maintenance oversight etc, with Qantas as a customer).
Despite the first "A" in "AWAS" standing originally for "Ansett", it at that time had virtually nothing to do with the airline Ansett (especially as at that time - late 2001) was then collapsing/collapsed. Wholly-owned by Morgan Stanley, was an operating-lease lessor to perhaps a few dozen airlines with a fleet of maybe 200-odd aircraft.
The Jetconnect operation was initially 3-4 737-300s. There was also an AWAS 767-300 wet-lease operation at roughly the same time (post-Ansett collapse) domestic-Oz. I think they may have had another wet-lease somewhere in the world as well.
Wet-lease operation was effectively converted to dry-lease at the time AWAS was sold (2003?) - then Qantas became the operator (AOC etc).
Jetconnect (the operation, I assume people are more interested in that than the shell company registrations?) was originally an AWAS wet-lease operation for Qantas (in other words, an AWAS AOC, AWAS tech crew, AWAS maintenance oversight etc, with Qantas as a customer).
Despite the first "A" in "AWAS" standing originally for "Ansett", it at that time had virtually nothing to do with the airline Ansett (especially as at that time - late 2001) was then collapsing/collapsed. Wholly-owned by Morgan Stanley, was an operating-lease lessor to perhaps a few dozen airlines with a fleet of maybe 200-odd aircraft.
The Jetconnect operation was initially 3-4 737-300s. There was also an AWAS 767-300 wet-lease operation at roughly the same time (post-Ansett collapse) domestic-Oz. I think they may have had another wet-lease somewhere in the world as well.
Wet-lease operation was effectively converted to dry-lease at the time AWAS was sold (2003?) - then Qantas became the operator (AOC etc).
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AWAS or Ansett NZ?
Wikipedia says in part...
The problem is, you just can't deal with the facts, and I doubt you ever will.
Wikipedia says in part...
In 2000, News Corporation sold Ansett New Zealand to a company called Tasman Pacific Airlines, formed by a group of New Zealand investors. Shortly afterwards, the company became a franchise of Qantas, operating under the Qantas New Zealand brand.
The following year, however, the airline went into liquidation.
Qantas's later involvement in the New Zealand domestic market was unrelated and not through a franchise agreement.
The following year, however, the airline went into liquidation.
Qantas's later involvement in the New Zealand domestic market was unrelated and not through a franchise agreement.
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Ansett NZ had to get divested by Ansett Airlines because Ansett was being taken over by AirNZ, which would therefore have had a domestic monopoly. TPA bought it and ran it as an Ansett-Airlines franchised operation (i.e. it used the Ansett logo/colour scheme etc). Running 146s and Dash-8s if I recall correctly.
TPA then rebranded as a Qantas franchise (maybe they saw the Ansett writing on the wall, more likely they felt that the Ansett brand would be associated with AirNZ).
TPA then collapsed soon after at around the time Ansett Airlines collapsed (there was a lot going on, so I don't recall the exact timing). It was a completely different airline to Jetconnect and nothing to do with it.
Air NZ was looking a bit shaky at the time (you might recall it soon needed a nationalisation/bailout). Qantas wanted to maintain an operation domestic-NZ routes, but was trying to make hay by claiming market share off the ruins of the Ansett collapse in Oz. They therefore had a capacity shortage (one of the few airlines needing aircraft at that post-Sept-11 time), and little inclination to go through the AOC hoops etc as they were well and truly distracted.
AWAS had plenty of aircraft (I recall 2 of the initial 3 and maybe the fourth 737CG came from Brazil). And they had a wet-lease capability. AWAS set up the Jetconnect operation (via a wholly-owned subsidiary company - name similar to "Australian Wet-Leasing Operations Pty Ltd" or thereabouts - I'm sure you can search for it). I recall cabin-crew were provided by QF (possibly contract), maybe some tech crew seconded, but it was an AWAS operation from the start. Try and find the AOC and track the aircraft regos/serial numbers and you'll verify this.
Fast-forward a year or so and AWAS wanted to shut down their wet-leasing operation (the 2 x 767 operation had finished its contract by then), the wet-leases were converted to dry and extended, AWAS packed its bags and went home. I think the AOC holding company was sold (possibly to the Jetconnect shelf company) for a few dollars.
I was sort-of involved with a fair bit of this, so I think I know. Were you Trent 972? I'm not trying to pick a fight, just give a little background.
Of course, Qantas then saw other opportunities for Jetconnect, taking advantage of the more-flexible NZ regs to start trans-Tasman routes etc.
TPA then rebranded as a Qantas franchise (maybe they saw the Ansett writing on the wall, more likely they felt that the Ansett brand would be associated with AirNZ).
TPA then collapsed soon after at around the time Ansett Airlines collapsed (there was a lot going on, so I don't recall the exact timing). It was a completely different airline to Jetconnect and nothing to do with it.
Air NZ was looking a bit shaky at the time (you might recall it soon needed a nationalisation/bailout). Qantas wanted to maintain an operation domestic-NZ routes, but was trying to make hay by claiming market share off the ruins of the Ansett collapse in Oz. They therefore had a capacity shortage (one of the few airlines needing aircraft at that post-Sept-11 time), and little inclination to go through the AOC hoops etc as they were well and truly distracted.
AWAS had plenty of aircraft (I recall 2 of the initial 3 and maybe the fourth 737CG came from Brazil). And they had a wet-lease capability. AWAS set up the Jetconnect operation (via a wholly-owned subsidiary company - name similar to "Australian Wet-Leasing Operations Pty Ltd" or thereabouts - I'm sure you can search for it). I recall cabin-crew were provided by QF (possibly contract), maybe some tech crew seconded, but it was an AWAS operation from the start. Try and find the AOC and track the aircraft regos/serial numbers and you'll verify this.
Fast-forward a year or so and AWAS wanted to shut down their wet-leasing operation (the 2 x 767 operation had finished its contract by then), the wet-leases were converted to dry and extended, AWAS packed its bags and went home. I think the AOC holding company was sold (possibly to the Jetconnect shelf company) for a few dollars.
I was sort-of involved with a fair bit of this, so I think I know. Were you Trent 972? I'm not trying to pick a fight, just give a little background.
Of course, Qantas then saw other opportunities for Jetconnect, taking advantage of the more-flexible NZ regs to start trans-Tasman routes etc.
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Decision handed down
Link here - [2011] FWAFB 3706
Many interesting observations made by FWA in their 2-1 decision.
The final 4 paragraphs from SDP Drake, are of note:
[130] I have concluded that Qantas Airways Limited (Qantas) does not exercise “a very high degree of control” or “a considerable degree of control” in relation to Jetconnect. I have concluded that Qantas’ control over Jetconnect is total.
[131] There were a number of discretionary factors relied on by Jetconnect which Jetconnect submitted weighed against any amendment of the award. The certified agreement between Jetconnect and its pilots expired on 26 May 2011. Now is perhaps a good time to consider these issues. I do not believe it is this Tribunal’s role to consider such matters in an application such as this. The application of the award is not a matter which should be set aside for discretionary commercial considerations. Qantas has entered into commercial agency arrangements with Jetconnect. It may have to reconsider them.
[132] I am persuaded by AIPA’s submission that Jetconnect is a fully owned subsidiary of Qantas which is acting as the agent of Qantas for the operation of Qantas’ short haul operations and the employment of staff, including pilots.
[133] The award is binding upon Qantas, and on Jetconnect as its agent, in respect of pilots employed by Qantas and by Jetconnect, in Qantas short haul operations, which operations include trans Tasman flights operated by Jetconnect. There is no ambiguity. The award does not require amendment.
Link here - [2011] FWAFB 3706
Many interesting observations made by FWA in their 2-1 decision.
The final 4 paragraphs from SDP Drake, are of note:
[130] I have concluded that Qantas Airways Limited (Qantas) does not exercise “a very high degree of control” or “a considerable degree of control” in relation to Jetconnect. I have concluded that Qantas’ control over Jetconnect is total.
[131] There were a number of discretionary factors relied on by Jetconnect which Jetconnect submitted weighed against any amendment of the award. The certified agreement between Jetconnect and its pilots expired on 26 May 2011. Now is perhaps a good time to consider these issues. I do not believe it is this Tribunal’s role to consider such matters in an application such as this. The application of the award is not a matter which should be set aside for discretionary commercial considerations. Qantas has entered into commercial agency arrangements with Jetconnect. It may have to reconsider them.
[132] I am persuaded by AIPA’s submission that Jetconnect is a fully owned subsidiary of Qantas which is acting as the agent of Qantas for the operation of Qantas’ short haul operations and the employment of staff, including pilots.
[133] The award is binding upon Qantas, and on Jetconnect as its agent, in respect of pilots employed by Qantas and by Jetconnect, in Qantas short haul operations, which operations include trans Tasman flights operated by Jetconnect. There is no ambiguity. The award does not require amendment.
