Merged: ASA Staff Shortage
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Adamastor and Baileys; you talk about wallpapreing over the cracks and, by inference, apply blame to the controllers - I think that's a bit unfair. I'd give you the analogy of the nursing profession dealing with a broken health system in every state. They feel morally obliged to prop up the system because they are concerned about people's health - the parallel with ATC is that the concern is peoples' safety and not piking out and dumping extra pressure and extra demands on their mates.
There may be a few who do it for the money. I'd bet my house that the vast majority do it because they still have pride in their profession. I'd also like to believe that there's a determined, and bloody-minded streak, that's not going to give the pricks an inch. From the way that their management appears to have played this, they are praying for disruptive industrial action - it's the only thing that will save their necks and "prove" that they are dealing with recalcitrants. As I've said before, my impression of their union is that they are not that stupid. I'd go as far as to say that "management" will have a totally crappy XMAS and new year if Santa doesn't deliver the hoped for industrial action.
The truth will eventually out.
There may be a few who do it for the money. I'd bet my house that the vast majority do it because they still have pride in their profession. I'd also like to believe that there's a determined, and bloody-minded streak, that's not going to give the pricks an inch. From the way that their management appears to have played this, they are praying for disruptive industrial action - it's the only thing that will save their necks and "prove" that they are dealing with recalcitrants. As I've said before, my impression of their union is that they are not that stupid. I'd go as far as to say that "management" will have a totally crappy XMAS and new year if Santa doesn't deliver the hoped for industrial action.
The truth will eventually out.
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Howabout ...Bit of a long stretch to compare yourself to nurses. If you don't go to work flights are delayed or diverted if nurses or doctors don't go to work people die.
Make a choice; choose life or continue to bitch about AsA whilst on endless overtime.
Make a choice; choose life or continue to bitch about AsA whilst on endless overtime.
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Industrial action?
Does it count as industrial action if we refuse to work any non-rostered hours for a week?
Possibly with the exception of someone going sick and someone being called in to replace - which would only be replacing a previously rostered shift and therefore something that we would normally be called in for and consider "reasonable" overtime.
Then the public and the parliament (and management) would see how understaffed the organisation really is on a standard week.
Yes it would be inconvenient, but it would prove a point without being too aggressive.
Just a thought.
Possibly with the exception of someone going sick and someone being called in to replace - which would only be replacing a previously rostered shift and therefore something that we would normally be called in for and consider "reasonable" overtime.
Then the public and the parliament (and management) would see how understaffed the organisation really is on a standard week.
Yes it would be inconvenient, but it would prove a point without being too aggressive.
Just a thought.
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Owen Stanley,
I'm sure you are aware that comments from this board and other forums, similar to yours, have been used as "evidence" by Airservices to (desperately) prove industrial action on the part of controllers. They have also been quoted by lazy journalists in sensationalistic media stories.
The association has been brought before the IRC partly as a result which has wasted it time and money that could have been spent on other things.
Don't think for a moment that you won't be quoted somewhere as more "evidence" of "covert industrial action".
I'm sure you are aware that comments from this board and other forums, similar to yours, have been used as "evidence" by Airservices to (desperately) prove industrial action on the part of controllers. They have also been quoted by lazy journalists in sensationalistic media stories.
The association has been brought before the IRC partly as a result which has wasted it time and money that could have been spent on other things.
Don't think for a moment that you won't be quoted somewhere as more "evidence" of "covert industrial action".
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Folks,
A cricket analogy comes to mind here.
We are about to face the second new ball (in the form of the Christmas/NY break).
We have seen off the opening attack and seen that the opposition are somewhat lacking in firepower.
We have seen off the spin attack.
We have resisted the temptation to go the tonk at the weakass **** that has been served up lately.
The last thing we want to do now is to have a slash at the short quick stuff that is bound to come with the second newey.
Lets just take guard again, and settle in for the long haul - they are running out of puff. If we "take the light" or go off for rain, the patrons wont be happy.
The best ammo we can have is to be able to say that given the shortages, given the overtime, given the interuptions to our lives, we still kept airspace open, no patron was inconvenienced and the industrial action is a furphy.
A cricket analogy comes to mind here.
We are about to face the second new ball (in the form of the Christmas/NY break).
We have seen off the opening attack and seen that the opposition are somewhat lacking in firepower.
We have seen off the spin attack.
We have resisted the temptation to go the tonk at the weakass **** that has been served up lately.
The last thing we want to do now is to have a slash at the short quick stuff that is bound to come with the second newey.
Lets just take guard again, and settle in for the long haul - they are running out of puff. If we "take the light" or go off for rain, the patrons wont be happy.
The best ammo we can have is to be able to say that given the shortages, given the overtime, given the interuptions to our lives, we still kept airspace open, no patron was inconvenienced and the industrial action is a furphy.
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Funk,
I'm not "one of them" on "endless overtime". However, I do know a few and have over many years.
I accept the bit about my analogy being a bit of a stretch, but it didn't concern the fundamental difference about life vs flight delays. It concerned the sense of obligation that both professions feel that a cynical management is all too willing to exploit.
OS; some angry words two posts back, although last one was a little more level-headed. I agree that people will do it for the money, but believe that the money is a by-product of the obligation for the majority. Call me naive, but I also think (having read some of your other posts) that you are not that cynical either!
I'm not "one of them" on "endless overtime". However, I do know a few and have over many years.
I accept the bit about my analogy being a bit of a stretch, but it didn't concern the fundamental difference about life vs flight delays. It concerned the sense of obligation that both professions feel that a cynical management is all too willing to exploit.
OS; some angry words two posts back, although last one was a little more level-headed. I agree that people will do it for the money, but believe that the money is a by-product of the obligation for the majority. Call me naive, but I also think (having read some of your other posts) that you are not that cynical either!
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Have a good, long, think about what Somniferous posted (replace sick only- not blanks).
If you could get the overtime junkies to play along (there would still be OT available), for even one complete month, you would totally castrate management's argument about industrial action. They would truly be stuffed having to explain that those TIBAs were ALL DUE TO LACK OF STAFF, and nothing to do with industrial action. They will try to spin it, but you would really be in a commanding position to run full page ads showing overtime was being worked to replace unplanned abscence, and TIBAs and delays were 100% down to them. You could even run ads, get press etc along the way, pointing out that you were soon going to commence industrial action after "x" date, as allowed under PIA. In the mean time, what the public is seeing is the delays inherintly due to AsA lies and the bonus-driven management culture (soooooo popular atm).
Seems to me like everyone (by that I mean all differently motivated 'types')would be willing to support something like that.
If you could get the overtime junkies to play along (there would still be OT available), for even one complete month, you would totally castrate management's argument about industrial action. They would truly be stuffed having to explain that those TIBAs were ALL DUE TO LACK OF STAFF, and nothing to do with industrial action. They will try to spin it, but you would really be in a commanding position to run full page ads showing overtime was being worked to replace unplanned abscence, and TIBAs and delays were 100% down to them. You could even run ads, get press etc along the way, pointing out that you were soon going to commence industrial action after "x" date, as allowed under PIA. In the mean time, what the public is seeing is the delays inherintly due to AsA lies and the bonus-driven management culture (soooooo popular atm).
Seems to me like everyone (by that I mean all differently motivated 'types')would be willing to support something like that.
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I disagree, Ferris. Don't fall into the Airservices trap of thinking that sick leave is YOUR fault. Sick leave occurs in EVERY SINGLE industry around Australia and the rest of the world including air traffic management. Air traffic controllers' sick leave has remained ostensibly unchanged for over a decade. If anything it has dropped a little in the last year. Almost every company has strategies in place to allow for unplanned absence. Generally they employ surplus staff to cover it. Earlier in the year Brett Godfrey stated publicly that that is what airlines including Virgin Blue do and criticised Airservices for not doing precisely this. As long as Airservices have you believing that their own planning shortcomings are your fault, you cannot win.
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Ferris the only problem is that management would not disclose if we are replacing a sick controller or filling a vacant shift. We are just asked if we would like to do an additional duty.
The last minute call outs are filled over the phone and there is no way to check until we get there.
The last minute call outs are filled over the phone and there is no way to check until we get there.
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I disagree, Ferris. Don't fall into the Airservices trap of thinking that sick leave is YOUR fault. Sick leave occurs in EVERY SINGLE industry around Australia and the rest of the world including air traffic management. Air traffic controllers' sick leave has remained ostensibly unchanged for over a decade. If anything it has dropped a little in the last year. Almost every company has strategies in place to allow for unplanned absence. Generally they employ surplus staff to cover it. Earlier in the year Brett Godfrey stated publicly that that is what airlines including Virgin Blue do and criticised Airservices for not doing precisely this. As long as Airservices have you believing that their own planning shortcomings are your fault, you cannot win.
I agree partly with your comments, in that yes, every industry has unplanned staff abscences due to illness. However, I think in this instance it is important to play the "nice guy/girl" and show that we will be willing to do overtime to cover "unplanned" roster issues. It shows that we are willing to do "reasonable" overtime.
If AsA were fully staffed then the OT that we did to cover illnesses would in fact be of a "reasonable" nature.
I think this way it would show that as a collective group of controllers we are happy to be reasonable whilst showing the Australian public just how short we are.
Maybe some sectors would cope better than others but I think it would prove a point. If it were over a key period such as when parliament resumes next year, not only would it prove a point but it would do so to the people that make TFN accountable (apparently).
Again, just a thought.
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Folks,
A cricket analogy comes to mind here.
A cricket analogy comes to mind here.
#1) It sounds way too much like what it going on in America.
#2) I'm reminded that we sent you a guy from the FAA, long ago -- Pollard. Sorry about that.
#3) If Marion Blakey ever sets foot in Oz, break out the torches and pitchforks.
There's much I don't know about your situation but I do know this; working overtime won't solve anything. It will just make you old before your time and delay the implementation of whatever is the solution.
American controllers could only wish they had your labor laws. They had to wait for a new election. They're still waiting.
Don Brown
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somniferous
You're being naive.
However, I think in this instance it is important to play the "nice guy/girl" and show that we will be willing to do overtime to cover "unplanned" roster issues. It shows that we are willing to do "reasonable" overtime.
If AsA were fully staffed then the OT that we did to cover illnesses would in fact be of a "reasonable" nature.
If AsA were fully staffed then the OT that we did to cover illnesses would in fact be of a "reasonable" nature.
Last edited by dabelstein; 22nd Apr 2009 at 01:40.
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I understand the point you are trying to make, som, but rest assured you WILL be vilified and harangued in the press no matter how reasonable you are or try to appear. You just have to tell the truth to your friends and family and cop Joe Public's wrath on the chin I'm afraid.
Thanks, Don. That is precisely the point I was trying to make. Rest assured, there's plenty of people over here following your debacle with interest, and hope that you're about to get a long-deserved change.
.....working overtime won't solve anything. It will just.....delay the implementation of whatever is the solution.
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Thanks, Don. That is precisely the point I was trying to make. Rest assured, there's plenty of people over here following your debacle with interest, and hope that you're about to get a long-deserved change.
I hope he names a Democrat as FAA Administrator. Otherwise, the troops will go bonkers.That will be the big problem over here -- controllers aren't known for their patience. (I suspect that is universal
) Anyway, cooler heads know that Obama has the wieght of the world on his shoulders and taking out the trash at the FAA can't be a priority at the moment. The controllers need to hang on, but I'm not sure they will. As it is, we're already facing a rebuilding effort on par with the PATCO strike in 1981. We know the "damned if you do -- damned if you don't" situation Oz's controllers are in, all to well.Me ? I'm of the "I'd rather die standing on my feet than live on my knees" mindset. That's a lot easier to say when you're retired like I am. Best wishes on whatever course of action y'all have to take.
Don Brown
Just a thought ....
Do you really think Joe Public knows or cares whether you are propping up the system with overtime ?
Do you really think Joe Public knows ATCs exist?
Do you really think Joe Public, who is on $30,000 pa and is about to get retrenched, really gives a toss about your EBA?
If I book a ticket, hop on a plane and it takes me to Sydney ... I'm fine!
Do you really think Joe Public knows or cares whether you are propping up the system with overtime ?
Do you really think Joe Public knows ATCs exist?
Do you really think Joe Public, who is on $30,000 pa and is about to get retrenched, really gives a toss about your EBA?
If I book a ticket, hop on a plane and it takes me to Sydney ... I'm fine!
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Just a thought ....
Do you really think Joe Public knows or cares whether you are propping up the system with overtime ?
Do you really think Joe Public knows ATCs exist?
Do you really think Joe Public, who is on $30,000 pa and is about to get retrenched, really gives a toss about your EBA?
If I book a ticket, hop on a plane and it takes me to Sydney ... I'm fine!
Do you really think Joe Public knows or cares whether you are propping up the system with overtime ?
Do you really think Joe Public knows ATCs exist?
Do you really think Joe Public, who is on $30,000 pa and is about to get retrenched, really gives a toss about your EBA?
If I book a ticket, hop on a plane and it takes me to Sydney ... I'm fine!