Merged: ASA Staff Shortage
"Howabout",
I would imagine so..............
They - the 'journos' - write what they are being 'fed'.
The only real cure, I would imagine, is a change of 'diet'.
Or, for the ATC Union to gain the help of a better quality investigative journalist.
i.e. They - the 'journos' - need to be given, in no uncertain manner, the full FACTS of the situation.
And be shown hard evidence - copies of rosters with spaces due insufficient staff to run an 'ordinary' roster period SANS O/T - would probably do it..
Plus evidence of lack of refresher training and all the other issues revolving around lack of management.
AND lack of STAFF.
But really - Shouldn't your question be directed to Civilair ??
I would imagine so..............
They - the 'journos' - write what they are being 'fed'.
The only real cure, I would imagine, is a change of 'diet'.
Or, for the ATC Union to gain the help of a better quality investigative journalist.
i.e. They - the 'journos' - need to be given, in no uncertain manner, the full FACTS of the situation.
And be shown hard evidence - copies of rosters with spaces due insufficient staff to run an 'ordinary' roster period SANS O/T - would probably do it..
Plus evidence of lack of refresher training and all the other issues revolving around lack of management.
AND lack of STAFF.
But really - Shouldn't your question be directed to Civilair ??
Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 25th Jan 2009 at 02:07.
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Hey Jaba
I'm a pilot, and not an ATC.
I was just posting a link to an article that wasn't as biased as the article in "The Age".
FWIW, every pilot I know is behind you guys.
Good Luck!
DIVOSH!
I was just posting a link to an article that wasn't as biased as the article in "The Age".
FWIW, every pilot I know is behind you guys.
Good Luck!
DIVOSH!
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Moving overseas was the best decision I have ever made, there is obviously a very long road ahead for those still stuck in Oz.
I would encourage anyone with the chance to go overseas to take the chance and let ASA reap what they have sown.
I would encourage anyone with the chance to go overseas to take the chance and let ASA reap what they have sown.
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Tony Wright if you are reading please educate yourself about why there are 144 endorsements. Over time ASA and its predecessors created these endorsements. There are 26 controlled aerodromes in Australia. None have the same taxiway/runway/apron set up. All have different topography. Some of these aerodromes are in close proximity to each other and some aren't.
Each enroute, arrivals,App/Dep endorsement has been predicated on the amount of knowledge i.e. STARs,SIDs, topography, routes, restricted areas, frequencies, etc that a controller can SAFELY be expected to remember and retain.
To apply to the newspaper industry. You have music reviewers, movie reviewers, finance, political, court, horseracing, football, social pages,aviation?(bwahaha), etc reporters. You are all journalists, why not send Lillian Frank out to cover the boxing and Kevin Sheedy do finance?
It is obvious to those in Aviation that you your Aviation writers on the whole have bugger all idea about Aviation and just fudge it. In Aviation safety areas we don't have the same leeway to stuff things up.
Each enroute, arrivals,App/Dep endorsement has been predicated on the amount of knowledge i.e. STARs,SIDs, topography, routes, restricted areas, frequencies, etc that a controller can SAFELY be expected to remember and retain.
To apply to the newspaper industry. You have music reviewers, movie reviewers, finance, political, court, horseracing, football, social pages,aviation?(bwahaha), etc reporters. You are all journalists, why not send Lillian Frank out to cover the boxing and Kevin Sheedy do finance?
It is obvious to those in Aviation that you your Aviation writers on the whole have bugger all idea about Aviation and just fudge it. In Aviation safety areas we don't have the same leeway to stuff things up.
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max1 - interesting comparison with The Age vs ASA ATC:
ASA has 144 endorsements (we'll take them at their word) and less than 800 operational ATCs. ASA want to compress them into 7.
The Age (The Age - Corporate Information) has 225 separate job titles for 402 staff (not including any admin/support roles). Let's compress The Age staff roles into 7....
1. Editors
2. Writers
3. Reporters
4. Correspondents
5. Photographers
6. Cartoonists
7. Coordinators/Directors
Any writer can do any other writer's job. Any reporter can cover any other reporter's job. Sounds good doesn't it!?
ASA has 144 endorsements (we'll take them at their word) and less than 800 operational ATCs. ASA want to compress them into 7.
The Age (The Age - Corporate Information) has 225 separate job titles for 402 staff (not including any admin/support roles). Let's compress The Age staff roles into 7....
1. Editors
2. Writers
3. Reporters
4. Correspondents
5. Photographers
6. Cartoonists
7. Coordinators/Directors
Any writer can do any other writer's job. Any reporter can cover any other reporter's job. Sounds good doesn't it!?
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Any writer can do any other writer's job. Any reporter can cover any other reporter's job. Sounds good doesn't it!?
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Actually, it's probably easier to restructure The Age as above than ASA. This is what I understand the 7 endorsements quoted in that article to be:
1. J Curve Approach
2. J Curve Enroute
3. J Curve Arrivals
4. High level controlled airspace
5. Oceanic
6. Regional (non radar/ADSB)
7. Regional (in radar/ADSB coverage)
Yes, that's right, your approach endorsement allows you to work on Canberra Approach one day and Sydney Departures the next, then Cairns Approach after you come back from your break. It might even be possible as a pilot to talk to the very same controller who cancelled your SID in Melbourne who issued your approach in Brisbane on the same flight.
Your Regional endorsement allows you to work traffic in the Newcastle-Port Macquarie area, coordinating those low level nav flights with Williamtown, then after a toilet break coordinate with Albury tower and monitor traffic in the Benalla area, then manage weather diversions/broadcasts for traffic around Rockhampton when you are asked to do some overtime to finish your shift.
Your shiny new Arrivals endorsement will allow you to be fluent in all the STARS (with transitions) and coordination procedures into Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne, Adelaide, Cairns etc without skipping a beat. At night time you can actually run all arrivals positions combined!
If you think that this is ridiculous then you are probably correct. If you thinking that this really all makes sense and don't know what all the fuss is about, then you should really bother to do some research into what ATC is all about, and what Air Traffic Controllers actually do.
1. J Curve Approach
2. J Curve Enroute
3. J Curve Arrivals
4. High level controlled airspace
5. Oceanic
6. Regional (non radar/ADSB)
7. Regional (in radar/ADSB coverage)
Yes, that's right, your approach endorsement allows you to work on Canberra Approach one day and Sydney Departures the next, then Cairns Approach after you come back from your break. It might even be possible as a pilot to talk to the very same controller who cancelled your SID in Melbourne who issued your approach in Brisbane on the same flight.
Your Regional endorsement allows you to work traffic in the Newcastle-Port Macquarie area, coordinating those low level nav flights with Williamtown, then after a toilet break coordinate with Albury tower and monitor traffic in the Benalla area, then manage weather diversions/broadcasts for traffic around Rockhampton when you are asked to do some overtime to finish your shift.
Your shiny new Arrivals endorsement will allow you to be fluent in all the STARS (with transitions) and coordination procedures into Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne, Adelaide, Cairns etc without skipping a beat. At night time you can actually run all arrivals positions combined!
If you think that this is ridiculous then you are probably correct. If you thinking that this really all makes sense and don't know what all the fuss is about, then you should really bother to do some research into what ATC is all about, and what Air Traffic Controllers actually do.
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Here To Help.
How did we get where we are?
Dont let the wheel of progress run you over as it passes you by. Just because we aren't doing it doesn't mean we can't do it (which is not the same as change for changes sake).
ATC over the years in Australia has changed greatly since I have been involved some for the better some for the worse.
I have to put my hand up and say if the system can support it - generic ratings would work. I too am quite happy to yearn back to the yesteryear of control when the sky was dark with Dc9s and Sydney only had 2 (is it 4?) runways (well it will again but that is another thread) but as the technology becomes more advanced and the tools and aids that we use become better suited to the application required I fail to see why generic ratings - within reason - cannot work.
Upper Airspace and Arrivals are two that would be ideal for it. I agree it is not for everywhere, hard to have a generic tower rating at say Cooly and Hamilton Island (although I would be prepared to commute!).
I suggest you do some research on what ATC is.
Start here....
Don Charlwood
TT
How did we get where we are?
Dont let the wheel of progress run you over as it passes you by. Just because we aren't doing it doesn't mean we can't do it (which is not the same as change for changes sake).
ATC over the years in Australia has changed greatly since I have been involved some for the better some for the worse.
I have to put my hand up and say if the system can support it - generic ratings would work. I too am quite happy to yearn back to the yesteryear of control when the sky was dark with Dc9s and Sydney only had 2 (is it 4?) runways (well it will again but that is another thread) but as the technology becomes more advanced and the tools and aids that we use become better suited to the application required I fail to see why generic ratings - within reason - cannot work.
Upper Airspace and Arrivals are two that would be ideal for it. I agree it is not for everywhere, hard to have a generic tower rating at say Cooly and Hamilton Island (although I would be prepared to commute!).
I suggest you do some research on what ATC is.
Start here....
Don Charlwood
TT
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My 2 cents worth!
Most old farts have trouble remembering adjacent frequencies! They split sectors at various levels so we now need a laminated 'cheat sheet' for the first time ever. To do arrivals/en-route in various geographic areas is a guarantee for a mess up if ever i saw one. Where the flamin hell are the 'efficiencies' management continually talk about in the brave new world? All i see is more and more delays, traffic management etc. due no staff!
How will things be when we have no Ocean arrivals on a night shift into Sydney? Make sure you call in when you get out of bed youse early starters to tell `em your on your way!
Most old farts have trouble remembering adjacent frequencies! They split sectors at various levels so we now need a laminated 'cheat sheet' for the first time ever. To do arrivals/en-route in various geographic areas is a guarantee for a mess up if ever i saw one. Where the flamin hell are the 'efficiencies' management continually talk about in the brave new world? All i see is more and more delays, traffic management etc. due no staff!
How will things be when we have no Ocean arrivals on a night shift into Sydney? Make sure you call in when you get out of bed youse early starters to tell `em your on your way!
ATC Endorsements
Of course if we are looking for best practice if as ATC management claims how many endorsements does a comparable geographical space like Europe have for all ENR, APP and TWRs.
Probably more like 1440 or 14400 than 144.
Now this makes Australia look positively efficient.
Funny that Australia's world worst practice journos didn't bother to ask.
And I suppose he didn't ask why Europe wasn't following Australia's lead.....
Still I guess that's what happens when the journo must do national politics one day and the births/deaths/marriages the next....
Wot's that.....even Rupert's journos don't multi skill even in reportage....
Hmmm what a bunch of hypocrites!!
Probably more like 1440 or 14400 than 144.
Now this makes Australia look positively efficient.
Funny that Australia's world worst practice journos didn't bother to ask.
And I suppose he didn't ask why Europe wasn't following Australia's lead.....
Still I guess that's what happens when the journo must do national politics one day and the births/deaths/marriages the next....
Wot's that.....even Rupert's journos don't multi skill even in reportage....
Hmmm what a bunch of hypocrites!!
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I would just like to point out that as much as Mr. Wright's piece is offensive garbage, it is not "reporting". It is an editorial opinion piece, and should be treated as such. The Australian article is a more balanced "report".
It would be of more use to expose why Wright is being given inches to expound his opinions, as well as show his opinions up to be ignorant, political, drivel.
Traffic traffic: I think there is one extremely good reason why the AsA experiment in generic ratings cannot work. They decrease efficiency for the customer, whose operating costs far exceed those of the service providers', in order to make a small gain for the provider. Working toward inefficiency will never work. That is not to say that AsA couldn't get it all to work eventually, but I think they are only getting away with even trying because their customers dont understand ATC or the fact that AsA is cost shifting onto them.
As an example; if AsA don't provide a service in an airspace, and airlines divert around it, look at the cost involved. I recently read where a Cathay flight had 34 mins added to the flight time due TIBA diversion. That would cost (in fuel alone) in the order of $5000. Im sure that wasnt the only flight inconvenienced. So a single TIBA could cost tens of thousands of dollars (without looking at crew costs, engine running hours, onward delay and schedule impact etc. etc.). The cost to AsA? NOTHING. If the financial costs were sheeted home to AsA, they might be more interested in NEVER allowing TIBA. In my view, this is the big philosphical problem with allowing a monopoly service provider to be run as a business. It's interests arent aligned with either it's customer's, or even the national interest.
It would be of more use to expose why Wright is being given inches to expound his opinions, as well as show his opinions up to be ignorant, political, drivel.
Traffic traffic: I think there is one extremely good reason why the AsA experiment in generic ratings cannot work. They decrease efficiency for the customer, whose operating costs far exceed those of the service providers', in order to make a small gain for the provider. Working toward inefficiency will never work. That is not to say that AsA couldn't get it all to work eventually, but I think they are only getting away with even trying because their customers dont understand ATC or the fact that AsA is cost shifting onto them.
As an example; if AsA don't provide a service in an airspace, and airlines divert around it, look at the cost involved. I recently read where a Cathay flight had 34 mins added to the flight time due TIBA diversion. That would cost (in fuel alone) in the order of $5000. Im sure that wasnt the only flight inconvenienced. So a single TIBA could cost tens of thousands of dollars (without looking at crew costs, engine running hours, onward delay and schedule impact etc. etc.). The cost to AsA? NOTHING. If the financial costs were sheeted home to AsA, they might be more interested in NEVER allowing TIBA. In my view, this is the big philosphical problem with allowing a monopoly service provider to be run as a business. It's interests arent aligned with either it's customer's, or even the national interest.
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Yes, that's right, your approach endorsement allows you to work on Canberra Approach one day and Sydney Departures the next, then Cairns Approach after you come back from your break. It might even be possible as a pilot to talk to the very same controller who cancelled your SID in Melbourne who issued your approach in Brisbane on the same flight.
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144 endorsements?
Have you had a look in CAOs 40.1.0, 40.3.0, 40.4.0, 40.7 & 40.8.3 recently? Surely they could all be compressed into 7?
1. Things with wings and whirly bits out the front.
2. Things without wings and whirly bits up the top.
3. Things that pump up.
4. Things that go 'whoosh'.
5-7. You get the idea.
Anyway, you lot haven't been paying close enough attention. In the brave new world there may be only 7 ATC endorsements, but you still won't actually be allowed to do the job without training and being 'signed off'.
Now, I'm off to Management School where I can think up some more great ideas...
Have you had a look in CAOs 40.1.0, 40.3.0, 40.4.0, 40.7 & 40.8.3 recently? Surely they could all be compressed into 7?
1. Things with wings and whirly bits out the front.
2. Things without wings and whirly bits up the top.
3. Things that pump up.
4. Things that go 'whoosh'.
5-7. You get the idea.
Anyway, you lot haven't been paying close enough attention. In the brave new world there may be only 7 ATC endorsements, but you still won't actually be allowed to do the job without training and being 'signed off'.
Now, I'm off to Management School where I can think up some more great ideas...
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I have taken a very keen interest in Generic Ratings. Yes we do not actually get on here and bleat without actually trying to make a difference.
I have had a meeting with the Level3 manager who is in charge of the Endorsement Stream (Generic Ratings) and agree that there are efficiencies to be made in the Upper Airspace (UAS) areas. These areas are in Oceanic and the NorthWest Areas of Australia where aircraft are flying in upper levels on long haul flights.
We have been promising the industry for years that we can provide and support 'free flight', we have not facillitated this as we have not put the resources towards the Flight Plan Conflict Tool (FPCT). NZ have had it for 10+ years!!!
We have had very dedicated and smart individual(s) who have been working on this for many years. I have had many conversations with these people and they have been very frustrated that management have not budgeted for this. Basically upper management have no grasp of the operational side of ATC. These individuals have continued to develop and refine this piece of software in spite of a lack of committment from management. To those at the coalface it seemed a 'no-brainer'. We need this piece of kit to provide 'free flight' and open up generic ratings in this airspace. It is slowly coming, and would have been here a damn sight quicker if SDE hadn't interrupted it.
As far as Generic Arrivals go it is a completely different kettle of fish.
When I queried the Level 3 as to how controllers would be able to remember all the STARs,routes, frequencies, restricted areas for aerodromes from Darwin, then Cairns and down the whole East Coast from Sydney he advised that the computer could tell you which STARs,etc to assign at a predetermined point.
Likewise, frequencies would be advised by the computer at given points. This would not take into account Wx diversions,runway changes, diversions into restricted areas, direct tracking, etc, after the advisory point has been passed. Also don't worry about Restricted Areas as we are moving towards Flexible Usage of Airspace (FUA).
Given that pilots like to be given the STAR arrival as far out as possible so they can study the plate (about 180-200 nm) what happens when we have adverse weather and/or a runway change? The computer cannot know the actual weather or the wind.
ASA have a love affair in believing that technology can overcome ALL obstacles. You would think that each storm season and Wednesdays system melt -down would get them thinking along the lines of 'hope for the best but plan for the worst'.
ASAs ATC Nirvana can work, provided we never have inclement weather or system dramas. If (when) we have these issues their Worlds Best Practice procedures go out the window. It is then the failings of their brave new world will be laid bare, and it will be the travelling public who are asked to count the cost and an ATC ends up in Coroners Court.
TrafficTraffic it doesn't take too much of a leap to work out that you are not actually an ATC. Upper Airspace is definitely an area where generic ratings would work and we have been waiting for 8 years for it. Arrivals is doable during the night(doggo) but definitely out when STARs, military flying, busy traffic,etc is occurring.
I suggest you might like to plug-in and see how the real world works. Last Wednesday in Brisbane would have been an eye-opener.
I have had a meeting with the Level3 manager who is in charge of the Endorsement Stream (Generic Ratings) and agree that there are efficiencies to be made in the Upper Airspace (UAS) areas. These areas are in Oceanic and the NorthWest Areas of Australia where aircraft are flying in upper levels on long haul flights.
We have been promising the industry for years that we can provide and support 'free flight', we have not facillitated this as we have not put the resources towards the Flight Plan Conflict Tool (FPCT). NZ have had it for 10+ years!!!
We have had very dedicated and smart individual(s) who have been working on this for many years. I have had many conversations with these people and they have been very frustrated that management have not budgeted for this. Basically upper management have no grasp of the operational side of ATC. These individuals have continued to develop and refine this piece of software in spite of a lack of committment from management. To those at the coalface it seemed a 'no-brainer'. We need this piece of kit to provide 'free flight' and open up generic ratings in this airspace. It is slowly coming, and would have been here a damn sight quicker if SDE hadn't interrupted it.
As far as Generic Arrivals go it is a completely different kettle of fish.
When I queried the Level 3 as to how controllers would be able to remember all the STARs,routes, frequencies, restricted areas for aerodromes from Darwin, then Cairns and down the whole East Coast from Sydney he advised that the computer could tell you which STARs,etc to assign at a predetermined point.
Likewise, frequencies would be advised by the computer at given points. This would not take into account Wx diversions,runway changes, diversions into restricted areas, direct tracking, etc, after the advisory point has been passed. Also don't worry about Restricted Areas as we are moving towards Flexible Usage of Airspace (FUA).
Given that pilots like to be given the STAR arrival as far out as possible so they can study the plate (about 180-200 nm) what happens when we have adverse weather and/or a runway change? The computer cannot know the actual weather or the wind.
ASA have a love affair in believing that technology can overcome ALL obstacles. You would think that each storm season and Wednesdays system melt -down would get them thinking along the lines of 'hope for the best but plan for the worst'.
ASAs ATC Nirvana can work, provided we never have inclement weather or system dramas. If (when) we have these issues their Worlds Best Practice procedures go out the window. It is then the failings of their brave new world will be laid bare, and it will be the travelling public who are asked to count the cost and an ATC ends up in Coroners Court.
TrafficTraffic it doesn't take too much of a leap to work out that you are not actually an ATC. Upper Airspace is definitely an area where generic ratings would work and we have been waiting for 8 years for it. Arrivals is doable during the night(doggo) but definitely out when STARs, military flying, busy traffic,etc is occurring.
I suggest you might like to plug-in and see how the real world works. Last Wednesday in Brisbane would have been an eye-opener.
Last edited by max1; 26th Jan 2009 at 10:39.
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Has anyone seen any of the actual plans for grouping of endorsements?
Personally I wouldn't write it off altogether! There may be some groupings that may be able to work! As an outright solution maybe not! There are great efficiency gains made in very busy airspace by being unconsciously competent (ie know the airspace and it's problems intimately) thereby planning to avoid problems earlier than the more reactive approach any general endorsement may imply.
We need to deal with facts!
By the way lets not get stuck into the journalists! There is no point! If we upset them by criticising them personally we will only get further bad reports. It is better to correct the errors but keep it impersonal! I'm sure there are days where we as controllers have taken the easier option over the more efficient one, that's human nature. When there is repeated cases, I'm sure someone will have a quiet word to us to pick up our game. That quiet word achieves more than a public confrontation!
Ozi.
Personally I wouldn't write it off altogether! There may be some groupings that may be able to work! As an outright solution maybe not! There are great efficiency gains made in very busy airspace by being unconsciously competent (ie know the airspace and it's problems intimately) thereby planning to avoid problems earlier than the more reactive approach any general endorsement may imply.
We need to deal with facts!
By the way lets not get stuck into the journalists! There is no point! If we upset them by criticising them personally we will only get further bad reports. It is better to correct the errors but keep it impersonal! I'm sure there are days where we as controllers have taken the easier option over the more efficient one, that's human nature. When there is repeated cases, I'm sure someone will have a quiet word to us to pick up our game. That quiet word achieves more than a public confrontation!
Ozi.
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oziatc,
I suggest you read 'Endorsements' on the SDE topic on the ASA intranet, it has only been out for 6 months plus. It tells you which endorsements ASA believe can be streamed into which generic ratings.
Furthermore I suggest you read all the 10+ ideas they have come up with, it is only about 800+ pages and will affect how ASA position themselves for the 'future'.
You will find that SDE has grabbed some ideas that were going to happen anyway to make it look like SDE is delivering 'quick wins'. Some ideas are good, and some are absolute wet-dreams.
The stupid ideas will still require managers to project manage, meetings to be held, stakeholders to be consulted,safety cases to be done,etc and then will die a death. But they keep some oxygen thief in a job.
I suggest you read 'Endorsements' on the SDE topic on the ASA intranet, it has only been out for 6 months plus. It tells you which endorsements ASA believe can be streamed into which generic ratings.
Furthermore I suggest you read all the 10+ ideas they have come up with, it is only about 800+ pages and will affect how ASA position themselves for the 'future'.
You will find that SDE has grabbed some ideas that were going to happen anyway to make it look like SDE is delivering 'quick wins'. Some ideas are good, and some are absolute wet-dreams.
The stupid ideas will still require managers to project manage, meetings to be held, stakeholders to be consulted,safety cases to be done,etc and then will die a death. But they keep some oxygen thief in a job.