Airservices Australia ADS-B program - another Seasprite Fiasco?
Q:
What if the crop-duster's 1090ES ADS-B Transponder had been unserviceable at start up?
What if the near miss had been with an ultralight?
Is every aircraft that could operate at any 'country strip' going to be paid to fit a 1090ES ADS-B transponder?
What if the crop-duster's 1090ES ADS-B Transponder had been unserviceable at start up?
What if the near miss had been with an ultralight?
Is every aircraft that could operate at any 'country strip' going to be paid to fit a 1090ES ADS-B transponder?
Creampuff, I'd probably add - what if the near-miss had been with a civvy UAV ? Apparently james michael believes that civvy UAVs will not have any ADS-B ?
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uhhhmm Flying Binghi,
you do realise that those buzzbombs and V2s' travelled quite a distance without the benefit of any form of GPS.
Whilst your terror scenario is plausible, I refuse to live in a state of fear simply because it is plausible.
eg. thousands of Oz citizens die on our roads every year, but I don't see millions of people walking everywhere just because motor vehicles can be used to kill people.
Similarly with car-bombs., (a long-time favourite with zealots), have they banned cars and trucks in Baghdad ????
Life is not guaranteed to be happy or pleasant. (irrespective of what a lot of yanks think)
Build a bridge and get over it.
Hmmm... statistical probability...... perhaps somebody should have told Hitler that ... you do recall that the scenario has already happened ???
Whilst your terror scenario is plausible, I refuse to live in a state of fear simply because it is plausible.
eg. thousands of Oz citizens die on our roads every year, but I don't see millions of people walking everywhere just because motor vehicles can be used to kill people.
Similarly with car-bombs., (a long-time favourite with zealots), have they banned cars and trucks in Baghdad ????
Life is not guaranteed to be happy or pleasant. (irrespective of what a lot of yanks think)
Build a bridge and get over it.
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Mr Bing,
With respect, what would the effect have been on the condition of the patient.... MED1 priority... of the G-forces pulled by an RFDS aircraft avoiding the crop-duster in response to a TCAS RA?
I already know the RFDS's opinion on this one.
Why do ambulances, lights and sirens blazing, slow down to an absolute crawl at an intersection before executing a 90 degree turn?
Ask an Accident & Emergency nurse or doctor and they will tell you why.
With respect, what would the effect have been on the condition of the patient.... MED1 priority... of the G-forces pulled by an RFDS aircraft avoiding the crop-duster in response to a TCAS RA?
I already know the RFDS's opinion on this one.
Why do ambulances, lights and sirens blazing, slow down to an absolute crawl at an intersection before executing a 90 degree turn?
Ask an Accident & Emergency nurse or doctor and they will tell you why.
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Quokka
Of course he will deny it. Egos and agendas are superior matters to safety.
Several recent events of note.
"Line up" call at a major airport - try last night - only it came from a handheld not the tower, while an aircraft was on final. (Bing, take note, $700 Icom overrules buzz bomb).
False callsigns given by VCA aircraft.
Bring on ADS-B.
Quok, the mistake we are all making is trying to debate with a blancmange - every time you prod it, it bounces back ignoring the laws of reality. Hopefully the many readers of this thread are realising that Dickmite squared equals codswallop cubed
Bing
But, in Class G, until the lockout GA rule occurs (shortly) the cropduster did not REQUIRE a transponder. That's $ off his bottom line. Are you suggesting one for him should be mandated?
Whoops, (OK it's provocative but fair payback) soon Bob Murphie will clock on here with his stopwatch - I'd best stop responding and let him have the last word and the last word and the last word while he claims that's the province of others. What time does the Manly Ferry dock?
In the meantime, OZBUS, as Indonesia et al move to 1090ES, one agrees entirely with your last post.
Of course he will deny it. Egos and agendas are superior matters to safety.
Several recent events of note.
"Line up" call at a major airport - try last night - only it came from a handheld not the tower, while an aircraft was on final. (Bing, take note, $700 Icom overrules buzz bomb).
False callsigns given by VCA aircraft.
Bring on ADS-B.
Quok, the mistake we are all making is trying to debate with a blancmange - every time you prod it, it bounces back ignoring the laws of reality. Hopefully the many readers of this thread are realising that Dickmite squared equals codswallop cubed
Bing
But, in Class G, until the lockout GA rule occurs (shortly) the cropduster did not REQUIRE a transponder. That's $ off his bottom line. Are you suggesting one for him should be mandated?
Whoops, (OK it's provocative but fair payback) soon Bob Murphie will clock on here with his stopwatch - I'd best stop responding and let him have the last word and the last word and the last word while he claims that's the province of others. What time does the Manly Ferry dock?
In the meantime, OZBUS, as Indonesia et al move to 1090ES, one agrees entirely with your last post.
you do realise that those buzzbombs and V2s' travelled quite a distance without the benefit of any form of GPS.
Whilst your terror scenario is plausible, I refuse to live in a state of fear simply because it is plausible.
Whilst your terror scenario is plausible, I refuse to live in a state of fear simply because it is plausible.
(hav'nt we covered this before?
)
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Bing
Must be a queue to post, I think four of us at once.
Your post 561.
Buzz bombs have me flustered?
I rate your scenario on the credibility factor of 'Big Brother' - oh, that's it, that's about to be OVER! (and thank deity the great unwashed will have to watch their socks washing fortnightly for equivalent quality).
Now, you are a farmer - superphosphate and the big bang means we need to look at you next, eh? Nitric acid, super-phosphate, and a pinch of dickmite and we can blow away the CWA meeting at Goondiwindi?
Bing, you lighten our lives
Must be a queue to post, I think four of us at once.
Your post 561.
Buzz bombs have me flustered?
I rate your scenario on the credibility factor of 'Big Brother' - oh, that's it, that's about to be OVER! (and thank deity the great unwashed will have to watch their socks washing fortnightly for equivalent quality).
Now, you are a farmer - superphosphate and the big bang means we need to look at you next, eh? Nitric acid, super-phosphate, and a pinch of dickmite and we can blow away the CWA meeting at Goondiwindi?
Bing, you lighten our lives
Mr Bing,
With respect, what would the effect have been on the condition of the patient.... MED1 priority... of the G-forces pulled by an RFDS aircraft avoiding the crop-duster in response to a TCAS RA?
I already know the RFDS's opinion on this one.
Why do ambulances, lights and sirens blazing, slow down to an absolute crawl at an intersection before executing a 90 degree turn?
Ask an Accident & Emergency nurse or doctor and they will tell you why.
With respect, what would the effect have been on the condition of the patient.... MED1 priority... of the G-forces pulled by an RFDS aircraft avoiding the crop-duster in response to a TCAS RA?
I already know the RFDS's opinion on this one.
Why do ambulances, lights and sirens blazing, slow down to an absolute crawl at an intersection before executing a 90 degree turn?
Ask an Accident & Emergency nurse or doctor and they will tell you why.
The basic TAS in my aircraft can 'see' to seven plus miles - higher spec ones of my brand/type can 'see' to 24+ miles (if I recall correctly) I would imagine the RFD TCAS would have a fair range and thus, alert time - I see no reason for any steep turns.
Dick Smith has already commented on reliability of TCAS in Europe.
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creampuff
Well..., the JCP proposal was to subsidise approx 11000 GA aircraft below 5700kg MTOW, which is a very high percentage of the total aviation fleet in Oz.
So., yeah.., it'll improve safety..., perhaps not as much as was claimed in the JCP, but an improvement non the less.
Is every aircraft that could operate at any 'country strip' going to be paid to fit a 1090ES ADS-B transponder?
So., yeah.., it'll improve safety..., perhaps not as much as was claimed in the JCP, but an improvement non the less.
If you think this is a leg pull - you opened the bidding. Goodnight mate
I think I know who you are now
... a sciolist (read the warning written in red at the bottom of the thread)
Quokka, I'll add to my previous post to you, that my understanding of the ADS-B sytem proposed, is that it will not 'see' every bit of low level Oz airspace (low level Oz -thats where Ag planes live - below 1,000 feet)
The ADS-B system proposed will also not supply the Ag pilot any way to 'see' the RFD aircraft.
The ADS-B system proposed will also not supply the Ag pilot any way to 'see' the RFD aircraft.
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Flying Binghi
that's not absolutely true.
If, one, of the aircraft has ADSB-IN (most likely the RFDS in this case), then that aircraft could independantly manouver out of harms way., even when out of range of an ADSB base-station, and all without ATS even knowing what is happening.
The ADS-B system proposed will also not supply the Ag pilot any way to 'see' the RFD aircraft.
If, one, of the aircraft has ADSB-IN (most likely the RFDS in this case), then that aircraft could independantly manouver out of harms way., even when out of range of an ADSB base-station, and all without ATS even knowing what is happening.
Well..., the JCP proposal was to subsidise approx 11000 GA aircraft below 5700kg MTOW, which is a very high percentage of the total aviation fleet in Oz.
So., yeah.., it'll improve safety..., perhaps not as much as was claimed in the JCP, but an improvement non the less.
So., yeah.., it'll improve safety..., perhaps not as much as was claimed in the JCP, but an improvement non the less.
Remember we will still need the current transponders as a back up to the inevitable GPS failures - and if you doubt a terrorism event; think sunspots ... we are currently between major sun 'storms' so there is no current GPS interference from the sun (probably why the worlds cooling at the moment) though wait untill the sun turns on again
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it will not 'see' every bit of low level Oz airspace (low level Oz -thats where Ag planes live - below 1,000 feet)
The ADS-B coverage at low-level will be much better than the RADAR coverage that currently exists overhead that airstrip for two reasons:
The RADAR beam points up and has a large shadow beneath the beam. Anyone who has called ATC and received the response... "not yet identified" would understand that they are in VHF coverage, but not in RADAR coverage. You can be in VHF coverage but not in RADAR coverage.
VHF coverage is a good example of the proposed ADS-B coverage. The VHF coverage at low level is superior to the RADAR coverage where the VHF site and RADAR site are co-located... or sited relatively close together. The additional sites planned for WA, not including Kalamunda, will provide good ADS-B coverage over the airstrip in question.
I could talk with the pilot of the RFDS aircraft on VHF, therefore, in all likelihood, both aircraft would have been in ADS-B coverage and displayed on my screen.
Therefore, ADS-B would have prevented this Close Proximity whereas SSR RADAR interrogating the Mode C equipped crop-duster would not have prevented it.
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Flying Binghi
You, for your own (safety) reasons, chose to install that TAS system.
I, am quite happy to utilize the JCP subsidy to replace, repeat, replace my ancient mode-C transponder with a more modern one.
Ok., I'll have to fit (as an absolute minimum) a small TSO'd GPS engine, but WTF can go wrong with that ?, it either feeds the ADSB transponder with valid data or it doesn't, and testing that functionality would not be excessively hard to do in the field.,
I mean, it'd be basically something along the lines of ;
(a) if the GPS antenna can 'see the sky', does the GPS report a lat/long/altitude that is consistant with the current location of that antenna and of another external (reference) GPS unit.
(b) if the GPS antenna is electrically shaded, does it then produce an indication that the lan/lon/altitude data is now invalid or suspect.
The extra testing/maintenance is not onerous., it is just different.
My IFR aircraft also has a TAS fitted. Can you please explain to me how fitting yet another device to my aircraft will improve my safety in any way what-so-ever ? as Dick Smith wrote earlier, there is no quantifiable safety increase - just an extra system to maintain.
I, am quite happy to utilize the JCP subsidy to replace, repeat, replace my ancient mode-C transponder with a more modern one.
Ok., I'll have to fit (as an absolute minimum) a small TSO'd GPS engine, but WTF can go wrong with that ?, it either feeds the ADSB transponder with valid data or it doesn't, and testing that functionality would not be excessively hard to do in the field.,
I mean, it'd be basically something along the lines of ;
(a) if the GPS antenna can 'see the sky', does the GPS report a lat/long/altitude that is consistant with the current location of that antenna and of another external (reference) GPS unit.
(b) if the GPS antenna is electrically shaded, does it then produce an indication that the lan/lon/altitude data is now invalid or suspect.
The extra testing/maintenance is not onerous., it is just different.
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Another small point to ponder on... The ag plane in the example above was bombing around with no mode c and no radio. Obviously anti-establishment. what makes you think he's going to fit ADS-B when its force on us? If anything it will just give pilots a false sense of security (much like out our funky new asic cards, thanks again for that). This is just a money making exercise. You guys say hey its subsidised so whats the problem? The problem is it's payed for by tax payers. US! Oh and makes no more need of Flightwatch staff. more money saved. You sell this like you're giving us all this extra safety for free.
Not Safe. Not Free!
Oh and makes no more need of Flightwatch staff. more money saved. You sell this like you're giving us all this extra safety for free. Not Safe. Not Free!
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antsx6r,
Go back and read this WHOLE thread, the answers to what you have complained about are in here.
The ag plane is not required to have Mode C, not keeping a listening watch is bad airmanship. He can't be forced to fit ADS-B, but if he was getting it for nix, why wouldn't he. If it is fitted, it powers up with the aircraft. It gives a surveillance capability in areas where there is currently none.
It is NOT paid for by the taxpayers, it is paid for by the airlines (who yes Dick funnily enough get their money from the passengers. The airlines also spend this money on first class tickets and Grange for the Board and management, I'm sure if they had the choice of an increase in safety and Grange for the Board meeting , I know which one they'd choose.).
You also state that 'You sell this like you're giving us all this extra safety for free. ' You are getting it for free.
I also think the gutting of Flightwatch is wrong, however, the demise of Flightwatch has nothing to do with ADS-B. Where did you get THIS idea from.
The people who are involved in this project probably think ASIC cards are as big a fraud as you do. Whats THIS got to do with ADS-B.
If you want to vent, go to Jet Blast. Read this whole thread with an open mind and you might learn something.
P.S. I don't think you're helping your 'side'
Go back and read this WHOLE thread, the answers to what you have complained about are in here.
The ag plane is not required to have Mode C, not keeping a listening watch is bad airmanship. He can't be forced to fit ADS-B, but if he was getting it for nix, why wouldn't he. If it is fitted, it powers up with the aircraft. It gives a surveillance capability in areas where there is currently none.
It is NOT paid for by the taxpayers, it is paid for by the airlines (who yes Dick funnily enough get their money from the passengers. The airlines also spend this money on first class tickets and Grange for the Board and management, I'm sure if they had the choice of an increase in safety and Grange for the Board meeting , I know which one they'd choose.).
You also state that 'You sell this like you're giving us all this extra safety for free. ' You are getting it for free.
I also think the gutting of Flightwatch is wrong, however, the demise of Flightwatch has nothing to do with ADS-B. Where did you get THIS idea from.
The people who are involved in this project probably think ASIC cards are as big a fraud as you do. Whats THIS got to do with ADS-B.
If you want to vent, go to Jet Blast. Read this whole thread with an open mind and you might learn something.
P.S. I don't think you're helping your 'side'
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Bing
I did go for the night as promised. Why did you think I had not?
Me a sciolist - freely admitted, that's why I keep researching to increase my meagre knowledge. The day I know it all, I'll petition to sit at Dick's feet, although realising that like all religions aviation can only have one true deity
But whoa there
1. We do not need the current transponders, the new (replacement) ones do the job.
2. Sunspots - I'm impressed, you farm lads must study New Scientist of an evening as well as the Weekly Times? The cycle is from memory about 7 to 9 years and how long has GPS been going?
But, overnight I have reflected on your GPS 'Big Bang' theory and I think I am moving toward your thinking.
That case of the false radio call indicates we have become too reliant on radio (which as you know is affected by sunspots, aurora, etc) and can be JAMMED. Oh, oh, a GPS guided Bing Whizzy UAV bomb with all the aviation radios jammed.
We must stop the reliance on radio; this scenario could happen.
OK, an alternative? Got it, light signals. Darn, cannot use them because the laser lights needed for clarity and range, have already been used against aircraft.
Looks like our only safe move is out with the tin snips, back to the open cockpit, on with the helmet and goggles, and back to the good old days, no?
If this scenario seems another leg pull - you got me. But, I'm just thinking of where we would have been had the "anti" ADS-B lobby been debating the introduction of radio. "No defined safety benefit", "Terrorist twistable", "Being introduced by people who won't take their daily dickmite", and so on. And what will they want to introduce next - radar - no way, "it'll make us sterile", "they'll use it to charge VFR in E and G", "it will increase global warming and make the sky fall in".
Removes Troglodyte Tin Top and returns to JM sciolist mode.
Others have covered the RFDS scenario but to reinforce it once the ADS-B IN interface to TCAS is operational the RFDS would get full TA/RA options.
Ants
Flightwatch - totally different matter. If you examine the hourly traffic on the FW VHF frequencies, very difficult to justify dedicated staff and more radio spectrum. Plus - think safety - FW on the en route frequencies means you do not have to leave the en route frequency to communicate.
You can still keep your radio situational awareness and get your mayday out if the fan stops, without having the extra step during crisis of having to change back to the en route (that's if you could even get FW on thrie discrete VHF frequencies, my success rate was about half).
I did go for the night as promised. Why did you think I had not?
Me a sciolist - freely admitted, that's why I keep researching to increase my meagre knowledge. The day I know it all, I'll petition to sit at Dick's feet, although realising that like all religions aviation can only have one true deity
But whoa there
Remember we will still need the current transponders as a back up to the inevitable GPS failures - and if you doubt a terrorism event; think sunspots ... we are currently between major sun 'storms' so there is no current GPS interference from the sun (probably why the worlds cooling at the moment) though wait untill the sun turns on again
2. Sunspots - I'm impressed, you farm lads must study New Scientist of an evening as well as the Weekly Times? The cycle is from memory about 7 to 9 years and how long has GPS been going?
But, overnight I have reflected on your GPS 'Big Bang' theory and I think I am moving toward your thinking.
That case of the false radio call indicates we have become too reliant on radio (which as you know is affected by sunspots, aurora, etc) and can be JAMMED. Oh, oh, a GPS guided Bing Whizzy UAV bomb with all the aviation radios jammed.
We must stop the reliance on radio; this scenario could happen.
OK, an alternative? Got it, light signals. Darn, cannot use them because the laser lights needed for clarity and range, have already been used against aircraft.
Looks like our only safe move is out with the tin snips, back to the open cockpit, on with the helmet and goggles, and back to the good old days, no?
If this scenario seems another leg pull - you got me. But, I'm just thinking of where we would have been had the "anti" ADS-B lobby been debating the introduction of radio. "No defined safety benefit", "Terrorist twistable", "Being introduced by people who won't take their daily dickmite", and so on. And what will they want to introduce next - radar - no way, "it'll make us sterile", "they'll use it to charge VFR in E and G", "it will increase global warming and make the sky fall in".
Removes Troglodyte Tin Top and returns to JM sciolist mode.
Others have covered the RFDS scenario but to reinforce it once the ADS-B IN interface to TCAS is operational the RFDS would get full TA/RA options.
Ants
Flightwatch - totally different matter. If you examine the hourly traffic on the FW VHF frequencies, very difficult to justify dedicated staff and more radio spectrum. Plus - think safety - FW on the en route frequencies means you do not have to leave the en route frequency to communicate.
You can still keep your radio situational awareness and get your mayday out if the fan stops, without having the extra step during crisis of having to change back to the en route (that's if you could even get FW on thrie discrete VHF frequencies, my success rate was about half).