Airservices Australia ADS-B program - another Seasprite Fiasco?
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Because Airservices is planning a different system, on a different frequency, that they can sell all around the world to make profits from!
I thought Era, Thales, Garmin, Micro et al were selling the "system".
Wouldn't that make Airservices the purchaser?
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Quokka
I think he is half right.
Airservices are certainly designing the concept of GBAS / GRAS and undoubtedly stand to make money.
What gets forgotten in such arguments is that several other nations are already using 'sort of' equivalents by different names.
And that GBAS is more precise for approaches than WAAS.
But, for GA, the argument is that there is no cheap receiver for GBAS - yet - until Airservices can get enough momentum to get the economy of scale receiver production.
I will argue strongly for 1090ES ADS-B, but I reserve my decision in the WAAS versus GBAS/GRAS debate because neither is an international flight level standard as is 1090ES.
Back to ADS-B - For those wanting to see ADS-B in operation, google something like OPEN ATC and you will get some idea of 1090ES penetration - INTERNATIONALLY.
I think he is half right.
Airservices are certainly designing the concept of GBAS / GRAS and undoubtedly stand to make money.
What gets forgotten in such arguments is that several other nations are already using 'sort of' equivalents by different names.
And that GBAS is more precise for approaches than WAAS.
But, for GA, the argument is that there is no cheap receiver for GBAS - yet - until Airservices can get enough momentum to get the economy of scale receiver production.
I will argue strongly for 1090ES ADS-B, but I reserve my decision in the WAAS versus GBAS/GRAS debate because neither is an international flight level standard as is 1090ES.
Back to ADS-B - For those wanting to see ADS-B in operation, google something like OPEN ATC and you will get some idea of 1090ES penetration - INTERNATIONALLY.
Have you served, Bob Murphie? If so to what rank, and if to officer status did you BUY a commission or earn it, you that speaks with authority on Lord Raglan?
Reduce your Dickmite intake and it will reduce the thread drift. Oh, I forgot did I not, the idea is to mangle the thread for a strategic advance to the rear.
Reduce your Dickmite intake and it will reduce the thread drift. Oh, I forgot did I not, the idea is to mangle the thread for a strategic advance to the rear.
Back to the thread,
james michael, you bought up the use of UAVs for civvy purposes here in Oz. If I understood your post correctly, ADS-B would be of major importance for civvy UAVs being able to be used around Oz, for example, mining and forestry purposes.
I'm wondering how many UAVs you invisage being used - 1,000; 5,000 ?
I,m thinking the UAV manufacturers would be pushing very hard for ADS-B... the sooner to make those profits.
Thinking a little further about civy UAVs - They will need to be insured.
I wonder how much it will cost to insure a UAV ? I'm thinking that the insurers will be pushing hard for immediate implimentation of ADS-B ... the sooner to make those profits
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OZBUSDRIVER; why are you, and your "hanratty's" pushing for something that may be redundant in the next 30 seconds?
Please don't let that other idiot answer on your behalf. I think he is "half left right out". But I'm sure he will answer first as is his custom.
Time check now.
Please don't let that other idiot answer on your behalf. I think he is "half left right out". But I'm sure he will answer first as is his custom.
Time check now.
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Bing
I love your ability to take things out of context.
Bob Murphie told me I was muddergoose - viz -
My response met his statement. Lord Raglan came through the ranks. Bob Murphie also claimed the COTLB involved officers who paid for their commission. The above quote was his 'arrogant bluster' in response to the facts.
As far as thread closure attempts is concerned, go review the weekends posts just gone if you need any assitance.
You seem to be very selective in whom you nominate for
my friend Bing - the Dickmite crew ran riot on the weekend yet I missed any criticism of them from your end of the ground 
Could we cut out that sort of point scoring as I prefer to be nice to you.
Bing, the number of UAV is a great unknown. Who would have forecast 300,000 Apple Iphones on release out here a decade ago?
They are already being trialled for coastal surveillance and have been launched in various States. Kingfisher, I think it is, is being trialled to flight levels.
UAV manufacturers would hardly be pushing for ADS-B. That's extra non-payload weight and extra cost.
Insurers will hardly be pushing an unknown either.
I admire your ability to look beyond the narrow limits constraining many in thinking of the future but I think you may be too pessimistic in your considerations. What would the insurer rather insure - a cropduster with a pilot life insured or a large lump of pilotless metal?
I love your ability to take things out of context.
Bob Murphie told me I was muddergoose - viz -
And I am open to an education even from a braggard. First I ever heard of a Lord coming up through the Ranks. But you would know obviously.
As far as thread closure attempts is concerned, go review the weekends posts just gone if you need any assitance.
You seem to be very selective in whom you nominate for
arrogant bluster
Could we cut out that sort of point scoring as I prefer to be nice to you.Bing, the number of UAV is a great unknown. Who would have forecast 300,000 Apple Iphones on release out here a decade ago?
They are already being trialled for coastal surveillance and have been launched in various States. Kingfisher, I think it is, is being trialled to flight levels.
UAV manufacturers would hardly be pushing for ADS-B. That's extra non-payload weight and extra cost.
Insurers will hardly be pushing an unknown either.
I admire your ability to look beyond the narrow limits constraining many in thinking of the future but I think you may be too pessimistic in your considerations. What would the insurer rather insure - a cropduster with a pilot life insured or a large lump of pilotless metal?
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I especially liked Creampuff's analogy about VHS vs Beta. Why? - because neither is the standard now.
So yes, Creampuff, we could delay and wait to see who will win out of VHS or Beta (ADS-B vs whatever else is on the table). Only to find that ten years from now DVD is the go, and we missed out on years of having ADS-B available, with it's obvious, current improvements- and any add-ons that haven't arrived yet. Would it have been better to not have received a FREE video recorder, of whatever flavour, waited for the winner, and after years and years of no video only to have your purchased video superseded by dvd?
I have an analogy of my own. It's raining. You are wondering how you are going to get home without getting wet. You are thinking of purchasing either a coat or an umbrella. A man walks up you and offers you a free coat. Do you turn him down because in 3 months time you might decide an umbrella would've been a more useful item?
So yes, Creampuff, we could delay and wait to see who will win out of VHS or Beta (ADS-B vs whatever else is on the table). Only to find that ten years from now DVD is the go, and we missed out on years of having ADS-B available, with it's obvious, current improvements- and any add-ons that haven't arrived yet. Would it have been better to not have received a FREE video recorder, of whatever flavour, waited for the winner, and after years and years of no video only to have your purchased video superseded by dvd?
I have an analogy of my own. It's raining. You are wondering how you are going to get home without getting wet. You are thinking of purchasing either a coat or an umbrella. A man walks up you and offers you a free coat. Do you turn him down because in 3 months time you might decide an umbrella would've been a more useful item?
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Mr Smith
Uhhmm, and who pays to outfit the (large) existing fleet that doesn't currently have such gear ?
True.., except that I don't currently have a TSO'd GPS panel/engine or a mode-S transponder fitted., meaning that it would cost me a lot of $$$$ to install such gear.
So, I want a large subsidy or a total reimbursment.
I believe that if we go to the standard system which will eventually be harmonised around the world, newly purchased aviation equipment will come fitted with the ADS-B ‘out’ (and possibly ‘in’) at no charge.
Why won’t the same thing happen with ADS-B? To fit a Mode S transponder (which are now pretty standard everywhere in the world) with a GPS engine, and squit the required code, could have no more of a hardware cost than about $80. The huge cost is getting the unit to be reliable and having it certified. This can be tens of millions of dollars.
So, I want a large subsidy or a total reimbursment.
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OZBUSDRIVER;
I assume you mean Luddite, Collins English Dictonary,~ any of the textile workers opposed to mechanisation who rioted and organised machine breaking between 1811 and 1816; any opponent of industrial change or innovation.
I'm not sure if this is a compliment or an insult?
I'll take it as a compliment. Thanks.
I am very pissed at the contemptuous efforts put to denigrate my Military Career as the peons stated previously on different forums, and with evil intent, to attempt to disgrace me, and I say again I am proud of my Commission, my leadership, and awards and decorations. I came up through the ranks. I am no hero, so don't go there again. I fail to see what COTLB? and Lord Raglan have to do with ADSB, CASA, or Mrs McCredy's pet poodle or indeed mr michael's pet dog.
I take notice of some recruit with a bend toward ham wireless who has achieved nothing and now, hit the bottom of the trench, continues to dig hoping he will disgrace Dick Smith, or anybody who dares to put their hand up to say, WHY?
Hanratty's mob at the crease.
Time check now to await john/ james brown, (or whoever he is moulding in the grave), a witty and mastabatortial response.
I assume you mean Luddite, Collins English Dictonary,~ any of the textile workers opposed to mechanisation who rioted and organised machine breaking between 1811 and 1816; any opponent of industrial change or innovation.
I'm not sure if this is a compliment or an insult?
I'll take it as a compliment. Thanks.
I am very pissed at the contemptuous efforts put to denigrate my Military Career as the peons stated previously on different forums, and with evil intent, to attempt to disgrace me, and I say again I am proud of my Commission, my leadership, and awards and decorations. I came up through the ranks. I am no hero, so don't go there again. I fail to see what COTLB? and Lord Raglan have to do with ADSB, CASA, or Mrs McCredy's pet poodle or indeed mr michael's pet dog.
I take notice of some recruit with a bend toward ham wireless who has achieved nothing and now, hit the bottom of the trench, continues to dig hoping he will disgrace Dick Smith, or anybody who dares to put their hand up to say, WHY?
Hanratty's mob at the crease.
Time check now to await john/ james brown, (or whoever he is moulding in the grave), a witty and mastabatortial response.
I'm in one of those moods
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You have had the WHY answered that many times it really is not funny anymore Bob, how about telling us all (in technical evidence based facts) the WHY NOT!
.
Without the 'bitters' if you would be so kind!
.
Hanrahan's (we'll all be rooned) mob to the crease
.
P.S. Whats with all this 'time check' stuff??
.
Without the 'bitters' if you would be so kind!
.
Hanrahan's (we'll all be rooned) mob to the crease
.
P.S. Whats with all this 'time check' stuff??
Thanks for the spelling correction. That's what you are, Bob. Give not a rats about your service, it has nought to do with technology at hand. I have a good idea what is at stake. Do you remember what Mr Hamilton said to me at Temora? That is why you do not want it. You are scared you can get roped back in to "The System" oooooooooohh dear me
Everything Mr Dunstone said and you guys are worried about "Big Brother"
You had a small win last time around, Bob. This time the end game is going to lock you out of even your own town field if it is a CTAF(R). I really hope you guys know what you are doing. If you lot win, we all have to pay for it, one way or another!
Everything Mr Dunstone said and you guys are worried about "Big Brother" You had a small win last time around, Bob. This time the end game is going to lock you out of even your own town field if it is a CTAF(R). I really hope you guys know what you are doing. If you lot win, we all have to pay for it, one way or another!
I'm in one of those moods
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... I know, Creamie will take it in the context intended! .
..... as for the other bloke, tis clearly 'deliberate dumb waiter' stuff, either that, or we are conversing with the clinically brain dead
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Mr Dog
I think you are spot on.
Bob Murphie
Perhaps, albeit accidentally, you have just kicked another goal for ADS-B.
Earlier I noted
To which you noted just above here
There are many instances of deaths in aviation due to lack of INFORMATION due to a COMMUNICATION PROBLEM. The provision of subsidised ADS-B and GPS - when one considers the extra information then available to the pilot and ATC - is most meritorious.
Ferris
I love analogies; that's a ripper.
Creampuff
I should have spelled it out that the proposed subsidy is $10K VFR and $15K IFR and we are still researching the availability of the backup navaids as to where NVFR fits.
But, my understanding of the probable mechanism is that the trigger for the subsidy is not turning up with an itemised equipment list to be audited, rather it may be as simple as a certified copy of the aircraft MR to verify VFR (txpdr), NVFR, or IFR category.
My reason for noting this is that this obviously gives the VFR owner the ability to add the extra $5K and go for a TSO146 navigator rather than just the VFR pack (that does not get you one with radios/VORs though).
Therefore, providing the subsidy goes ahead, the opportunity exists to upgrade most of the GA fleet avionics.
Ignoring the purist legal arguments, I really have difficulty believing the Government could re-issue the JCP, signed by the 4 heads and agreed by all parties, then expect to pull the subsidy and get away with it.
Do we go now or not? The UK and USA experiences will be no subsidy - do we punt on a subsidy now or enter a guaranteed 'no subsidy' later.
Marketing tells us that equipment may reduce in cost (that's why the subsidy reduces to 90% later, so the early adopters have that 10% buffer) but labour will increase.
What we need to see is Airservices, as I have earlier suggested, publicly outfit say 10 GA aircraft of varying avionics types, and show us the bill.
You also asked about maintenance and that is topical. Fitting new IC based equipment and RS232 encoders alt should reduce unscheduled maintenance. If the current RAD process is continued - you know, the one where everything works OK until the RAD is conducted - there will be slight extra expense due to the ADS-B component. My argument is that the RAD process reflects valves and crystals and should be extended to say 5 years.
For my research, I will value your thoughts on the above plus yesterday's response to you.
I think you are spot on.
Bob Murphie
Perhaps, albeit accidentally, you have just kicked another goal for ADS-B.
Earlier I noted
The deaths in the Charge of the Light Brigade were due to lack of information due to a communication problem.
I fail to see what COTLB? and Lord Raglan have to do with ADSB
Ferris
I love analogies; that's a ripper.
Creampuff
I should have spelled it out that the proposed subsidy is $10K VFR and $15K IFR and we are still researching the availability of the backup navaids as to where NVFR fits.
But, my understanding of the probable mechanism is that the trigger for the subsidy is not turning up with an itemised equipment list to be audited, rather it may be as simple as a certified copy of the aircraft MR to verify VFR (txpdr), NVFR, or IFR category.
My reason for noting this is that this obviously gives the VFR owner the ability to add the extra $5K and go for a TSO146 navigator rather than just the VFR pack (that does not get you one with radios/VORs though).
Therefore, providing the subsidy goes ahead, the opportunity exists to upgrade most of the GA fleet avionics.
Ignoring the purist legal arguments, I really have difficulty believing the Government could re-issue the JCP, signed by the 4 heads and agreed by all parties, then expect to pull the subsidy and get away with it.
Do we go now or not? The UK and USA experiences will be no subsidy - do we punt on a subsidy now or enter a guaranteed 'no subsidy' later.
Marketing tells us that equipment may reduce in cost (that's why the subsidy reduces to 90% later, so the early adopters have that 10% buffer) but labour will increase.
What we need to see is Airservices, as I have earlier suggested, publicly outfit say 10 GA aircraft of varying avionics types, and show us the bill.
You also asked about maintenance and that is topical. Fitting new IC based equipment and RS232 encoders alt should reduce unscheduled maintenance. If the current RAD process is continued - you know, the one where everything works OK until the RAD is conducted - there will be slight extra expense due to the ADS-B component. My argument is that the RAD process reflects valves and crystals and should be extended to say 5 years.
For my research, I will value your thoughts on the above plus yesterday's response to you.
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bl**dy typical
The development of this thread reflects that of the ADS-B process as a whole: Lots of very specialised interests discussing the to** out of an issue that at heart is quite simple: Agree the proposal is a good one in principle (even if it has a few rough edges), go ahead and let the market sort out the rest, like avionics development, pricing, and availability.
You can debate any issue to death, and the way it's going here that seems to be exactly where this proposal is headed, sadly.
Australia has a minor percentage of the global aviation market. The only way we will get affordable avionics here is to adopt the solution of the largest player in the market.
In the words of the King: "A little less conversation, a little more action please!"
You can debate any issue to death, and the way it's going here that seems to be exactly where this proposal is headed, sadly.
Australia has a minor percentage of the global aviation market. The only way we will get affordable avionics here is to adopt the solution of the largest player in the market.
In the words of the King: "A little less conversation, a little more action please!"
...a little more action please!
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I have been following this thread with great interest.
All points of view have been well presented.
Unfortunately the thread has now denegrated into an into-wind urinating distance contest between some very intelligent and entertaining people who appear to dislike each other with intense malice!
My suggestion is to encourage ASA to survey all owners of GA Aircraft to see what they want to do. I would bet most would accept the subsidy, if it was offered. I sure would.
The question I have is this. Would ADSB give a location to start looking if a VFR aircraft went down outside OCTA in the bush? ( Like a recordable radar trace). If so, this feature alone would be worth my while installing the equipment, subsidy or not.
Oh... Bhingi... tell me about those buzz bombs again. I reckon they'd be really handy to try and get those mongrel dingos that keep biting the tails and ears off my cows
All points of view have been well presented.
Unfortunately the thread has now denegrated into an into-wind urinating distance contest between some very intelligent and entertaining people who appear to dislike each other with intense malice!
My suggestion is to encourage ASA to survey all owners of GA Aircraft to see what they want to do. I would bet most would accept the subsidy, if it was offered. I sure would.
The question I have is this. Would ADSB give a location to start looking if a VFR aircraft went down outside OCTA in the bush? ( Like a recordable radar trace). If so, this feature alone would be worth my while installing the equipment, subsidy or not.
Oh... Bhingi... tell me about those buzz bombs again. I reckon they'd be really handy to try and get those mongrel dingos that keep biting the tails and ears off my cows
Thread Starter
Biggles in Oz, you ask:
I don’t see any need for this because there is no urgency in bringing in ADS-B, and if we introduce it in parallel with the existing SSRs and perhaps multilateration, there is no hurry.
For example, in the USA they were not planning to mandate ADS-B until 2020, and even then it is not for below 10,000 feet in Class E and G airspace. That means that 80% of aircraft in the USA would not require ADS-B at all.
Regarding your question about a Mode S transponder, in 20 years time Mode S transponders with ADS-B will be about the same price as a Mode C transponder today in my view. Are you going to be flying the same aeroplane with the same equipment in 20 years? I doubt it.
Also, as stated before, if we followed the US FAA line, you would not need ADS-B below 10,000 feet in Class E or G airspace.
Remember, no measurable safety issue is being addressed in mandating ADS-B for VFR aircraft.
who pays to outfit the (large) existing fleet that doesn't currently have such gear ?
For example, in the USA they were not planning to mandate ADS-B until 2020, and even then it is not for below 10,000 feet in Class E and G airspace. That means that 80% of aircraft in the USA would not require ADS-B at all.
Regarding your question about a Mode S transponder, in 20 years time Mode S transponders with ADS-B will be about the same price as a Mode C transponder today in my view. Are you going to be flying the same aeroplane with the same equipment in 20 years? I doubt it.
Also, as stated before, if we followed the US FAA line, you would not need ADS-B below 10,000 feet in Class E or G airspace.
Remember, no measurable safety issue is being addressed in mandating ADS-B for VFR aircraft.