RAAF ATC Staffing Levels
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they treated runway 01 and 07 changed because of an incident, they now have to be treated as crossing runways.
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Cleared for a visual approach via a 9 nm final and the LLZ. Only other traffic was a PC9 some distance behind us. No helicopter traffic. More than adequate separation from PRD areas on the terminal chart. Restriction on decent below 2,000 till 6 DME. Asked why and was told "it's in the Notams".
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really? The last thing a busy ATC needs is to be explaining procedures to pilots over A/G when the information has already been disseminated, it's not like Notams are hard to find.
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Last year enroute from Mackay to Townsville we were cleared to 7000' (VFR conditions). We were told that traffic was another aircraft on a reciprocal track at 6000'. Sure enough the TCAS confirmed this. The other aircraft traced down the TCAS screen towards us. There was no other aircraft within a 15 mile radius of us. The other pilot remarked at the time "fcuk, don't these clowns know what a vector is". Consequently we ended up over the top of the airfield at 7000' and had to do a spiral descent onto 01
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TC -
The flight strips of 01 and 07 cross, the actual marked runway 07 (the short one, used by BE20s and below from memory) stops just short of 01. The type of acft using 07 were able to land and hold short of 01 until cleared to cross.
As I've said before, I haven't worked TVL since the mid 90s, but back then we were able to use 01 and 07 concurrently without requiring actual LAHSO agreements. Made things easier for sequencing, but you always had to be mindful that a go 'round on 07 could conflict with 01 if the acft was unable to turn early enough. Sounds like this may have occured - hence the change on ops?
Virgin Driver, your specific comments/questions were appreciated, I passed them on to a mate in TL and I see "Goaround121" addressed them yesterday.
As to the "no more than 3 instructions", I confess I gained a newfound respect for cockpit workload during various "famil" flights (F18, DH4, S70, C130 plus C208, C152, B737, B777 and A330 - civvie rides being much easier to get pre- 9/11 of course, but the nice boys at Virgin let me in the jumpseat in 2005 into DN in a thunder storm - very impressive!)
All of the civvie flights and all but the C130 ride were done in my own time (pre-9/11 whenever I flew anywhere, I would always show my ID and ask to talk to the crew during the flight - usually ended up with an invite to stay in the jumpseat for landing, which was always interesting and took the opportunity to discuss local procedures - the DN TMP provided fodder for many a holiday flight!)
Anyway, I tend to structure the detail of my instructions depending on the cockpit (eg - multicrew vs single pilot, IFR vs VFR, local operator vs visiting lightie pilot from the bush) and stage of flight. For instance, to a multicrew acft on vectors for ILS, I have no problem issuing:
"ABC turn right heading xxx to intercept the LLZ, descend to A030 cleared ILS 01 report established" (which is technically 4 - heading, descent, cleared for final and report) because all of this is what you are expecting to hear, so shouldn't pose a problem.
To a student I would separate the instructions (intercept and report, descend and cleared) or to an acft subject to abnormal ops, visiting acft etc.
Please let me know if you disagree with this. Otherwise, I train my trainees to consider cockpit workload (ie give freq change instructions with take off clearance if possible, rather than when first airborne, or at least wait until the acft is clean; provide a "pause" if changing the acft's app intentions and do so as early as possible to give them time to find the new plate and brief appropriately (eg. ILS NA, expect TAC arrival via xxxxx)
One advantage that RAAF ATC may have is that many of our guys scrubbed out of pilots' course (some very late in the training - I know one guy who was 2 weeks off grad when he pulled the pin) before entering the glorious world of ATC. While their experience flying PC9s may not equate to driving an airbus, in all the cases I know, they show not only an awareness of what's going on in the cockpit, but also an interest in aviation generally (me, I don't read Aviation Weekly in my spare time)
they treated runway 01 and 07 changed because of an incident, they now have to be treated as crossing runways.
Good work on the explanations. Care to explain the above...Runways cross or they don't.
Good work on the explanations. Care to explain the above...Runways cross or they don't.
As I've said before, I haven't worked TVL since the mid 90s, but back then we were able to use 01 and 07 concurrently without requiring actual LAHSO agreements. Made things easier for sequencing, but you always had to be mindful that a go 'round on 07 could conflict with 01 if the acft was unable to turn early enough. Sounds like this may have occured - hence the change on ops?
Virgin Driver, your specific comments/questions were appreciated, I passed them on to a mate in TL and I see "Goaround121" addressed them yesterday.
As to the "no more than 3 instructions", I confess I gained a newfound respect for cockpit workload during various "famil" flights (F18, DH4, S70, C130 plus C208, C152, B737, B777 and A330 - civvie rides being much easier to get pre- 9/11 of course, but the nice boys at Virgin let me in the jumpseat in 2005 into DN in a thunder storm - very impressive!)
All of the civvie flights and all but the C130 ride were done in my own time (pre-9/11 whenever I flew anywhere, I would always show my ID and ask to talk to the crew during the flight - usually ended up with an invite to stay in the jumpseat for landing, which was always interesting and took the opportunity to discuss local procedures - the DN TMP provided fodder for many a holiday flight!)
Anyway, I tend to structure the detail of my instructions depending on the cockpit (eg - multicrew vs single pilot, IFR vs VFR, local operator vs visiting lightie pilot from the bush) and stage of flight. For instance, to a multicrew acft on vectors for ILS, I have no problem issuing:
"ABC turn right heading xxx to intercept the LLZ, descend to A030 cleared ILS 01 report established" (which is technically 4 - heading, descent, cleared for final and report) because all of this is what you are expecting to hear, so shouldn't pose a problem.
To a student I would separate the instructions (intercept and report, descend and cleared) or to an acft subject to abnormal ops, visiting acft etc.
Please let me know if you disagree with this. Otherwise, I train my trainees to consider cockpit workload (ie give freq change instructions with take off clearance if possible, rather than when first airborne, or at least wait until the acft is clean; provide a "pause" if changing the acft's app intentions and do so as early as possible to give them time to find the new plate and brief appropriately (eg. ILS NA, expect TAC arrival via xxxxx)
One advantage that RAAF ATC may have is that many of our guys scrubbed out of pilots' course (some very late in the training - I know one guy who was 2 weeks off grad when he pulled the pin) before entering the glorious world of ATC. While their experience flying PC9s may not equate to driving an airbus, in all the cases I know, they show not only an awareness of what's going on in the cockpit, but also an interest in aviation generally (me, I don't read Aviation Weekly in my spare time)
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One advantage that RAAF ATC may have is that many of our guys scrubbed out of pilots' course (some very late in the training - I know one guy who was 2 weeks off grad when he pulled the pin) before entering the glorious world of ATC. While their experience flying PC9s may not equate to driving an airbus, in all the cases I know, they show not only an awareness of what's going on in the cockpit,
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You get what you pay for.
(Per Tonne >5700kg) CS $10.95; MK and RK $12.69; TL $2.94
Doc here: http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...006_3_july.pdf
don't shoot the messenger
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Well done Grumpy - you must be the ONLY pilot ever to not f**k up.....
We all fcuk up on occasion , it's just that I try really hard not to do it consistently
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To the pilots that have engaged in a positive way, thanks.
Capt. Grumpy, you need an enema. You seem to be so pissed off at the world and all things Military ATC that you are incapable of reading other posts on this thread. I am not attempting to justify the service you receive, just trying to shed some light on why the RAAF are so inexperienced but you don't seem to get it. Other than complain on forums such as these, what have you done to improve the knowledge of the TL ATC's or others ? Have you written to your management, Dept of Defence or your Federal MP ? Have you been over to TL ATC at all? Organised for an ATC famil in a jump seat or is it your intention to pass on your crap attitude to other crew members that you fly and associate with ?
ATC can also quote many examples of Pilot F&%$ ups if thats where you want the thread to go.
If your fishin for a bite, you got me HL & S. This one really pissed me off.
You are a dead set ******. The people that went OS came from all bases around Aust. and rotated fairly regularly. They did there job whilst being shot at, mortared and putting up with all kinds of crap without complaining. I'm wondering if the DHL 767 that took a SAM to the port wing agrees with you.
Those that stayed at home (tell us how you really feel) kept things going without any change to ERSA hrs, NO CTAF/MBZ or TIBA and did all kinds of extra crap as well as helping out the families of those deployed.
Some of those controllers left the RAAF after Iraq and now work at some of the places you have previously mentioned.
But you wouldn't understand this at your nice little base in cairns ! Coffee perhaps to hot, whingy kid in the back, you poor thing, maybe its the humidity.
I don't like flying with grumpy pissed pilots up front so can you tell us who you fly for, that way, I can utilise Queensland Rail next time I head into TL.
Capt. Grumpy, you need an enema. You seem to be so pissed off at the world and all things Military ATC that you are incapable of reading other posts on this thread. I am not attempting to justify the service you receive, just trying to shed some light on why the RAAF are so inexperienced but you don't seem to get it. Other than complain on forums such as these, what have you done to improve the knowledge of the TL ATC's or others ? Have you written to your management, Dept of Defence or your Federal MP ? Have you been over to TL ATC at all? Organised for an ATC famil in a jump seat or is it your intention to pass on your crap attitude to other crew members that you fly and associate with ?
All the other blokes in my company are of the same opinion as myself. I have canvassed the opinions of mates with Virgin and Sunnies and they all agree, Townsville is not good. The other pilot remarked at the time "fcuk, don't these clowns know what a vector is". Fcuking pathetic.
If your fishin for a bite, you got me HL & S. This one really pissed me off.
When a few years ago it was announced that TL controllers were going to Iraq to train the controllers at Baghdad airport, this created much mirth at my workplace about the poor bloody Iraqi's. This turned to some dread when we realized that it probably meant the B team was being left in charge at TL.
Those that stayed at home (tell us how you really feel) kept things going without any change to ERSA hrs, NO CTAF/MBZ or TIBA and did all kinds of extra crap as well as helping out the families of those deployed.
Some of those controllers left the RAAF after Iraq and now work at some of the places you have previously mentioned.
But you wouldn't understand this at your nice little base in cairns ! Coffee perhaps to hot, whingy kid in the back, you poor thing, maybe its the humidity.
I don't like flying with grumpy pissed pilots up front so can you tell us who you fly for, that way, I can utilise Queensland Rail next time I head into TL.
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geez people!!
Ok - more than once have I had to ring up a pilot and apologise for something that ATC did/didn't do. If something didn't happen they way you want it to, stop whinging and pick up the phone and speak to the supervisor. I don't know just how busy you are after a flight, what with debriefing and bars to get to, but surely you can have a reasonable discussion on a phone. If you aren't happy with the supervisor, ring the Flight Commander or SATCO. For those that can't be bothered doing that, submit paperwork to your management and they will chase it up for you. Personally I think that in most instances that is the pissy way to do it, but its up to you. If you really want to find out whats going on, instead of racing to the hotel, go and visit the section.
Rant over
Rant over
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Capt Grumpy
Capt Grumpy
Mate... you need to get yourself a visit up to the TWR at Townsville and speak to the contollers first hand and let them know what "problems" you have with their controlling.
After that get yourself a invite to the Officers Mess Bar and chill out with few glasses of wine and really get down to the nitty gritty - I know you would enjoy it..
Mate... you need to get yourself a visit up to the TWR at Townsville and speak to the contollers first hand and let them know what "problems" you have with their controlling.
After that get yourself a invite to the Officers Mess Bar and chill out with few glasses of wine and really get down to the nitty gritty - I know you would enjoy it..
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Fed up and moving to Lipservices Australia???? 
I am afraid that they will be wishing to be back in the Blue suit before the 1st week is out. Morale is at an all time low in ASA right now. TFN and his sycophants could not manage their way out a wet paper bag.
Tragic
I am afraid that they will be wishing to be back in the Blue suit before the 1st week is out. Morale is at an all time low in ASA right now. TFN and his sycophants could not manage their way out a wet paper bag.
Tragic
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I'm hearing you flight focus, I lasted 12 mths. One common factor I did notice about both orgs is that ATC's generally make really, really, crap managers.
I heard on the good old RAAF grapevine that a few of the resignations are utilising their ADFA degrees and heading into other industries.
About 22 heading to ASA, Bn and ML centre as well as Syd twr and App.
Good luck to them all.
Also heard rumours this week the RAAF is trying to quickly raise another retention benefit. Too late me thinks.
BTW I'm going fishing in the morning, just thought I'd throw that in.
I heard on the good old RAAF grapevine that a few of the resignations are utilising their ADFA degrees and heading into other industries.
About 22 heading to ASA, Bn and ML centre as well as Syd twr and App.
Good luck to them all.
Also heard rumours this week the RAAF is trying to quickly raise another retention benefit. Too late me thinks.
BTW I'm going fishing in the morning, just thought I'd throw that in.