Merged: Qantas Engineers Set to Strike
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GD
"GD on the ABC radio this morning said that shareholders were more important than the QF employees and derserved the money as dividends before the workers got 1 cent more than 3% offered".
Delta 4, I also commend your post. May I add one possible solution to GD's problem. He take a 50% pay cut down to a miserly $3.35M, yet still remain the highest paid Airline CEO in the World, then invest the relinquished $3.35M to an engineers fund. Unbelievably, his sacrifice would cover the 1600 LAMES pay request. Now that's an investment in Qantas' future.
GD, did you have any idea how repulsive this level of greed could be to the rank and file. Let alone your grab for $60M with APA. You do now!
Delta 4, I also commend your post. May I add one possible solution to GD's problem. He take a 50% pay cut down to a miserly $3.35M, yet still remain the highest paid Airline CEO in the World, then invest the relinquished $3.35M to an engineers fund. Unbelievably, his sacrifice would cover the 1600 LAMES pay request. Now that's an investment in Qantas' future.
GD, did you have any idea how repulsive this level of greed could be to the rank and file. Let alone your grab for $60M with APA. You do now!
Last edited by Acute Instinct; 15th May 2008 at 10:39. Reason: Point of phrase
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Good Luck to the ginger beers, hopefully this can play out without the forecast doom and gloom from the usual suspects and you people get what is FAIR in todays CPI. Anything less when the profits are soaring, there is a shortage of your skills and fuel is "surcharged" is just plain rude. As PAF would be hesitant to point out supply and demand means you are now worth more coz there's less of you, even with the "trained strikebreakers". Interesting to see how that would play out with the right media spin.
The most interesting thing in all this is the continued angst from a range of big Q employees from across the board. I have a conehead mate who left to go to the Q recently and gets paid a bit more, staff travel, had all the ratings and is a very good LAME. After 6 months he wants back on less money with more work. He's well fed up with the culture in management. I have another couple of mates who are pilots with Q, who again enjoy their workmates, but hate the management and without getting too specific aren't exactly keen on the classics.Same with the MAM's they aren't exactly happy campers (no pun intended) from what I'm told.
It's sad to see what was once considered the pinnacle of aviation jobs in Australia turn into a bit of a curse. Good luck to the LAME's and well done with the PIA, good way to get them to listen without putting others out too much.
The most interesting thing in all this is the continued angst from a range of big Q employees from across the board. I have a conehead mate who left to go to the Q recently and gets paid a bit more, staff travel, had all the ratings and is a very good LAME. After 6 months he wants back on less money with more work. He's well fed up with the culture in management. I have another couple of mates who are pilots with Q, who again enjoy their workmates, but hate the management and without getting too specific aren't exactly keen on the classics.Same with the MAM's they aren't exactly happy campers (no pun intended) from what I'm told.
It's sad to see what was once considered the pinnacle of aviation jobs in Australia turn into a bit of a curse. Good luck to the LAME's and well done with the PIA, good way to get them to listen without putting others out too much.
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contractors
i believe from a very good source that there are about 24 engineers on contract on a similar deal of $10000 per month ( 38 to 44 hrs per week ) with no end clause!!! and were recruited from QF's own ranks over the last 10 months.
so be aware of your own!!!!!
so be aware of your own!!!!!
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Stay cool people,
the reasonable demand of 5% (ref ACTU sect) in line with cost of living is indeed a reasonable demand, when wages have grown at 4.8%
Given the past bragging of GD of record profits in the climate of harsh times etc, etc, surely this is what the public will hang him on especially when the general public are hurting too from interest rates, cost of living fuel costs etc.
All those record profits, no trickle down effect to the troops, and the fat cats getting fatter is real BAD for GD's case for 3%.
now consider the private equity bid, I cannot remember how many of the Qf management team were going to own a part of Qf, but it was around 1% of 11 billion when the deal was to be done (say 30 managers owning $110 million) it was to grow to 4.5% and Qf worth 40% more after 5 yrs.............soooooo
11 billion becomes 15.4 billion and the 30 odd managers worth 4.5% of that is worth 693 million, how much did GD miss out on? Is he pissed?
what do you reckon, guess he wants to kick heads
It's like a game of chess, be 3-5 steps ahead, make sure your back door is covered and every step is well thought out.
I reckon the ALAEA is doing a great job.....but it's early days, just stay cool and we'll win with logic, reason and the moral high ground
Just my thoughts
D4
the reasonable demand of 5% (ref ACTU sect) in line with cost of living is indeed a reasonable demand, when wages have grown at 4.8%
Given the past bragging of GD of record profits in the climate of harsh times etc, etc, surely this is what the public will hang him on especially when the general public are hurting too from interest rates, cost of living fuel costs etc.
All those record profits, no trickle down effect to the troops, and the fat cats getting fatter is real BAD for GD's case for 3%.
now consider the private equity bid, I cannot remember how many of the Qf management team were going to own a part of Qf, but it was around 1% of 11 billion when the deal was to be done (say 30 managers owning $110 million) it was to grow to 4.5% and Qf worth 40% more after 5 yrs.............soooooo
11 billion becomes 15.4 billion and the 30 odd managers worth 4.5% of that is worth 693 million, how much did GD miss out on? Is he pissed?
what do you reckon, guess he wants to kick heads
It's like a game of chess, be 3-5 steps ahead, make sure your back door is covered and every step is well thought out.
I reckon the ALAEA is doing a great job.....but it's early days, just stay cool and we'll win with logic, reason and the moral high ground
Just my thoughts
D4
When in comes to industrials, the Lames' union has never demonstrated anything other than Knumb Knuts. 
The Lames have backed down every time.
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You can't tell a bully you're about to punch him in the nose and think you will get away with it. Better to kick him in the nuts and run like .... If this keeps happening, eventually he will get the message. 
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When in comes to industrials, the Lames' union has never demonstrated anything other than Knumb Knuts. The Lames have backed down every time.
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Yup! That will win you "public" support.
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I wanted to highlight this again..............At the end of the day GD is older than most wishing him gone. He can't last 4ever, he can't take his ill gotten wealth with him, he can't ever hurt anyone like he is now after he is gone & he leaves a bitter taste in a lot of peoples mouths that will haunt his family & friends long after he has gone. I don't wish this upon his family nobody would am sure but it would be nice if nothing else if his close friends(if he has any!)/family could take him aside & simply say, is it or was all that money/power really worth the legacy you have shamefully left us?
CW
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PAF I was refering to the ones GD is acting against (the workers) rather than acting for. Their the 'true' share holders of QF just not in money terms, which is the root of all QF's eveil!
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Righto PAF,
I'm a shareholder in the company that employs you (as we all are), aren't you lucky you don't have to rely on your "union" to get a pay rise every couple of years! Just a bit of out-sourcing (CSP), productivity increases (sqn name changes), yup, that'll do it, another pay rise thanks!
Spanner (cynically)
I'm a shareholder in the company that employs you (as we all are), aren't you lucky you don't have to rely on your "union" to get a pay rise every couple of years! Just a bit of out-sourcing (CSP), productivity increases (sqn name changes), yup, that'll do it, another pay rise thanks!
Spanner (cynically)
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I'd suggest the shareholders, who's interests he is legally obliged to act in, would
Are you talking about the same shareholders (of which I am one) who were almost sold down the river with the takeover deal. The deal endorsed by Dixon and the board giving themselves millions of dollars in shares. ???
Are you talking about the shareholders that would have seen the company debt/equity ratio go from 25:75 to 75:25 ???
When a board blinded by greed fails to carry out checks on a consortium that is attempting the takeover to see if they are adequately and properly financed in a manner that is in the interests of the company, then that's failure of their fiduciary duty.
ASIC is legally obliged to step in, charge, convict and jail these morally bankrupt persons.
Are you talking about the shareholders that would have seen the company debt/equity ratio go from 25:75 to 75:25 ???
When a board blinded by greed fails to carry out checks on a consortium that is attempting the takeover to see if they are adequately and properly financed in a manner that is in the interests of the company, then that's failure of their fiduciary duty.
ASIC is legally obliged to step in, charge, convict and jail these morally bankrupt persons.
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No thanks, I did that gig for over 20 years.
I have a job that I enjoy every day. I earn a fair salary (less than when I wore spotty uniforms). I am not a member of a union (don't even know if one would have me?). I live in the same house as my family (finally), and can even take them with me when I go away for work.
I think engineers have been suffering from a little too much BOHICA recently!
Spanner
I have a job that I enjoy every day. I earn a fair salary (less than when I wore spotty uniforms). I am not a member of a union (don't even know if one would have me?). I live in the same house as my family (finally), and can even take them with me when I go away for work.
I think engineers have been suffering from a little too much BOHICA recently!
Spanner
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Quote from PAF
"What I do point out is that striking should be illegal, and those that do strike are morally bankrupt. Willing to deliberately harm others to achieve their aim."
This is a VERY immature statement Mr Frozo. The primary intention to take industrial action is to improve ones working conditions when ALL other avenues have been exhausted. To gain a fair increase on the standards of living as prescribed by the CPI is not that extreme an idea. It is not to harm others and if it does it will illustrate the importance of any worker group in an organisation and hopefully gain that fair and equitable CPI rise. Don't spruik your idealistic, perfect world scenarios to people who just want a fair deal and have asked for that reasonably by an intransient management group. You always seem to blame the workers. Why is that?
Your comments about leaving for other jobs is just plain offensive. Some people want to work for companies and in certain cities, they like their jobs and unlike you, money might not be their primary motivating factor in staying somewhere, maybe they are proud of the company and it's history. I get well fed up with short term managers who say "if you don't like it leave" Guess what econ 101 MBA master managers are emloyees too and if they don't like it they can leave too and generally do when their short sighted policies fall apart in the real world. It's arrogant to the extreme to treat employees this way and this attitude goes some way in explaining some of the main problems in previous industrial relations in Australia.
If you treat your employees well you'll get more out of them. If you did your MBA you may have done the management course that outlines the very specific differences between Australian employees as opposed to other cultures. In Australia micro managing doesn't work, we like to be left alone to do our work. Aussies work best when empowered and independent, trust them and treat them well and production will show this. Your style of yelling and take what you get is old thinking and hopefully Q and others will discover this before it implodes and if you want the examples of companies that succeed by using my model just do a couple of searches on these pages. If not go back to your books or maybe a current working successful company.
Sorry for the rant punters but the old industrial action doom and gloom scenario gets boring and anyone who's put in the position that means they even have to consider it has to put up with the PAFs of this world who assume they are the red raggers, want to destroy the company and are not intelligent which in this case is certainly not true. Ahhh, cliches are the domain of the unimaginative.
Game on
"What I do point out is that striking should be illegal, and those that do strike are morally bankrupt. Willing to deliberately harm others to achieve their aim."
This is a VERY immature statement Mr Frozo. The primary intention to take industrial action is to improve ones working conditions when ALL other avenues have been exhausted. To gain a fair increase on the standards of living as prescribed by the CPI is not that extreme an idea. It is not to harm others and if it does it will illustrate the importance of any worker group in an organisation and hopefully gain that fair and equitable CPI rise. Don't spruik your idealistic, perfect world scenarios to people who just want a fair deal and have asked for that reasonably by an intransient management group. You always seem to blame the workers. Why is that?
Your comments about leaving for other jobs is just plain offensive. Some people want to work for companies and in certain cities, they like their jobs and unlike you, money might not be their primary motivating factor in staying somewhere, maybe they are proud of the company and it's history. I get well fed up with short term managers who say "if you don't like it leave" Guess what econ 101 MBA master managers are emloyees too and if they don't like it they can leave too and generally do when their short sighted policies fall apart in the real world. It's arrogant to the extreme to treat employees this way and this attitude goes some way in explaining some of the main problems in previous industrial relations in Australia.
If you treat your employees well you'll get more out of them. If you did your MBA you may have done the management course that outlines the very specific differences between Australian employees as opposed to other cultures. In Australia micro managing doesn't work, we like to be left alone to do our work. Aussies work best when empowered and independent, trust them and treat them well and production will show this. Your style of yelling and take what you get is old thinking and hopefully Q and others will discover this before it implodes and if you want the examples of companies that succeed by using my model just do a couple of searches on these pages. If not go back to your books or maybe a current working successful company.
Sorry for the rant punters but the old industrial action doom and gloom scenario gets boring and anyone who's put in the position that means they even have to consider it has to put up with the PAFs of this world who assume they are the red raggers, want to destroy the company and are not intelligent which in this case is certainly not true. Ahhh, cliches are the domain of the unimaginative.
Game on
Last edited by Whiskey Oscar Golf; 15th May 2008 at 13:38. Reason: spilling
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Go easy on old PAF..... it takes him a lot of time to type out his messages with only one hand on the keyboard.
I gather he sees it not unfit for the workers of this country to be returned to the dark old days of no rights?
Look at is this way PAF, Dixon and co are on top. We are down below, the pillars holding him up. If we are not taken care of, we crumble and what we hold up, will come crashing down.
Let Dixon destroy the pillars of Qantas if he wishes..... he will deserve the fall that follows.
I gather he sees it not unfit for the workers of this country to be returned to the dark old days of no rights?
Look at is this way PAF, Dixon and co are on top. We are down below, the pillars holding him up. If we are not taken care of, we crumble and what we hold up, will come crashing down.
Let Dixon destroy the pillars of Qantas if he wishes..... he will deserve the fall that follows.
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Lets face it you ALAEAs members are not Union members.
The expectation the Federal Executive have for a starwart group that agrees with the Federal Executive is sadly misplayed.
Have a look at the first ideal against the man how long did it take to falter.
The expectation the Federal Executive have for a starwart group that agrees with the Federal Executive is sadly misplayed.
Have a look at the first ideal against the man how long did it take to falter.
PAF you are the kind of person that other people make moneY from. The perfect prolotariat. Well done.
For other LAME's who realise that their preferred profession is underpaid I say FIGH FOR WHAT YOU ARE WORTH.
ONCE YOU REALISE THAT FIGHT IS NOT WORTH THE EFFORT, TAKE YOUR SKILLS TO ANOTER PLACE WHERE YOU WILL BE BETTER REWARDED. IN SO DOING YOU JUST WON THE FIGH AND ALSO MOVED TO GREANER PASTURES.
WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOUR BOSS TOOK YOU AND YOUR FAMILY OUT TO A FINE DINING MEAL? MOVE ON AND GO TO BETTER PLACES.
IT IS AN EMPLOYEES MARKET RIGHT NOW, AND ANY COMPANY MANAGER WHO DOESN'T REALISE THIS IS A LOOSER, AND THEY ARE SIMPLY NOT LOOKING AFTER THEIR SHAREHOLDERS INTERESTS BY NOT SECURING THE QUALITY OF THEIR LABOUR FORCE.
GEOFF YOU HAVE STAYED TOO LONG AND HAVE AN OLD TIMERS VISION. IT'S TIME TO MOVE WITH THE TIMES OR MOVE ON.
BY THE WAY PAF -- AS A CLIENT ONLY I WHOLLY SUPPORT THE ENGINEERS STRIKE. ANY PERSONAL INCONVENIENCE IS MINOR COMPARED TO HAVING A BETTER PRODUCT AVAILABLE TO ME IN THE FUTURE.
For other LAME's who realise that their preferred profession is underpaid I say FIGH FOR WHAT YOU ARE WORTH.
ONCE YOU REALISE THAT FIGHT IS NOT WORTH THE EFFORT, TAKE YOUR SKILLS TO ANOTER PLACE WHERE YOU WILL BE BETTER REWARDED. IN SO DOING YOU JUST WON THE FIGH AND ALSO MOVED TO GREANER PASTURES.
WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOUR BOSS TOOK YOU AND YOUR FAMILY OUT TO A FINE DINING MEAL? MOVE ON AND GO TO BETTER PLACES.
IT IS AN EMPLOYEES MARKET RIGHT NOW, AND ANY COMPANY MANAGER WHO DOESN'T REALISE THIS IS A LOOSER, AND THEY ARE SIMPLY NOT LOOKING AFTER THEIR SHAREHOLDERS INTERESTS BY NOT SECURING THE QUALITY OF THEIR LABOUR FORCE.
GEOFF YOU HAVE STAYED TOO LONG AND HAVE AN OLD TIMERS VISION. IT'S TIME TO MOVE WITH THE TIMES OR MOVE ON.
BY THE WAY PAF -- AS A CLIENT ONLY I WHOLLY SUPPORT THE ENGINEERS STRIKE. ANY PERSONAL INCONVENIENCE IS MINOR COMPARED TO HAVING A BETTER PRODUCT AVAILABLE TO ME IN THE FUTURE.