V-australia...Tell me it isnt so?
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VONKLUFFEN,
Sorry mate you have lost me?
Was just a general query.
I dont even know if V-Oz are going to have a seniority system.
Why dont you enlighten me Yoda.
MAX
Sorry mate you have lost me?
Was just a general query.
I dont even know if V-Oz are going to have a seniority system.
Why dont you enlighten me Yoda.
MAX
Last edited by MAX; 7th May 2008 at 04:44. Reason: Having read through Vonkluffen's posts I can see he is hardly omniscient.
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MAx,
Do you feel that the cruise FOs should be promoted to Captain instantly that the dataly 'junior' Captains and Senior FOs start with the company? Beacuse by implication, that appears to be what you are saying.
I somehow doubt that datal seniority for promotion will feature at VOz. That concept is on it way to extinction.
Do you feel that the cruise FOs should be promoted to Captain instantly that the dataly 'junior' Captains and Senior FOs start with the company? Beacuse by implication, that appears to be what you are saying.
I somehow doubt that datal seniority for promotion will feature at VOz. That concept is on it way to extinction.
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Do you feel that the cruise FOs should be promoted to Captain instantly that the dataly 'junior' Captains and Senior FOs start with the company? Beacuse by implication, that appears to be what you are saying.
I was just curious as to whether V-Oz , was going to have seniority by date of joining?
Many experienced Senior FO's and Captains would like this cleared up before they join, as it has an impact on many aspects of your lifestyle over a career in a company eg: leave bidding, trip bids etc and not just command upgrades.
If the cruise FO's have only the bare minimum requirements for employment I guess they will be making the bunk for a very long time before they are anywhere near a left hand seat.
I wasn't stirring the pot, only looking for an answer to a question which perhaps V-Oz dont even know themselves.
If I was a gambling man I would say they will have a seniority list, with command upgrades based on merit.
Open to debate of course as I have no idea really.
MAX
"That concept (seniority) is on it way to extinction."....
Ralph, you may be right, but one might also live to regret the day seniority is completely lost; it's not always bad.
In my experience "merit" is an interesting concept in the context of airline pilots. "Merit" is great when one feels reasonably secure that you're better than those around you; ie more deserving of promotion. But what happens when:
- someone who plays golf with a manager is promoted ahead of you? or
- someone who goes to the office to do admin on days off (no wife or kids?) gets a shot ahead of you? or
- a pilot feels that refusing to extend when fatigued might have career and promotional implications? or
- a family crisis forces a delay in your ability to accept the first available opportunity? or
- through poor planning your company temporarily can't release you off one type to promote onto another?
And I could go on...
Seniority has many variations. Consider:
- Absolute datal, where "time in" gets you everthing.
- Seniority in rank, which encourages earliest promotion because one will be junior for a while in every new rank.
- Seniority on type, great until the other fleet types get a better life.
- Seniority by hours/age/eye colour... don't laugh.
And none of these address peripherals like equality in days worked per month, leave allocation, sharing of overtime etc.
Seniority might not seem fair always, but its greatest strength is that it can minimise nepotism and allow a better-educated guess at where you can/will be in your future career. If one keeps meeting the required standard (which hopefully demands high competency of every pilot) then the choice is yours and yours alone. No one can take that away from you under a seniority system.
Cheers.
ps For the record, I'm middle-aged and junior.
In my experience "merit" is an interesting concept in the context of airline pilots. "Merit" is great when one feels reasonably secure that you're better than those around you; ie more deserving of promotion. But what happens when:
- someone who plays golf with a manager is promoted ahead of you? or
- someone who goes to the office to do admin on days off (no wife or kids?) gets a shot ahead of you? or
- a pilot feels that refusing to extend when fatigued might have career and promotional implications? or
- a family crisis forces a delay in your ability to accept the first available opportunity? or
- through poor planning your company temporarily can't release you off one type to promote onto another?
And I could go on...
Seniority has many variations. Consider:
- Absolute datal, where "time in" gets you everthing.
- Seniority in rank, which encourages earliest promotion because one will be junior for a while in every new rank.
- Seniority on type, great until the other fleet types get a better life.
- Seniority by hours/age/eye colour... don't laugh.
And none of these address peripherals like equality in days worked per month, leave allocation, sharing of overtime etc.
Seniority might not seem fair always, but its greatest strength is that it can minimise nepotism and allow a better-educated guess at where you can/will be in your future career. If one keeps meeting the required standard (which hopefully demands high competency of every pilot) then the choice is yours and yours alone. No one can take that away from you under a seniority system.
Cheers.
ps For the record, I'm middle-aged and junior.
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Jetsbest,
A lot of what ifs there but what baffles me is how can someone be better suited to a command simply because they joined one week earlier??
The rest of the business world seems to run well enough on a merit basis so why can't aviation??
A lot of what ifs there but what baffles me is how can someone be better suited to a command simply because they joined one week earlier??
The rest of the business world seems to run well enough on a merit basis so why can't aviation??
Ralph has gone off on this tangent before. And it has been pointed out to him on past ocassions that seniority is simply an opportunity to qualify. If you don't make the cut, you don't get the gig.
FullySickbro, did you actually read Jetsbest's post?
Unless you have actually seen the evils of nepotism, cronyism and generally suckupism, I guess you may not understand.
That is of course untill one day when it happens to you!
FullySickbro, did you actually read Jetsbest's post?
Unless you have actually seen the evils of nepotism, cronyism and generally suckupism, I guess you may not understand.
That is of course untill one day when it happens to you!
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Cheers Krust, I did indeed read the post and perhaps Jetsbest post deserved a longer and more thought out response- but hey I was tired.
I'm am neither here nor there with seniority based (i.e. number given based on date of joining) vs any other system, however the debate has as many valid points against (of which I do not time to list) as there are for...
An 'opportunity' you say? Well yes to a degree but when push comes to shove its the date of joining which has the final say... Why not a system whereby seniority counts for a majority of ones promotion but also included is an element of past training/ check history and perhaps even a small dose of personal development as judged by a designated mentor?? Just a thought...
With relevance to todays environment, I think that in its day seniority systems may have made sense for a group of aviators with largely the same experience base (well seasoned GA, regional, military etc.) and a very stagnated progression towards upgrades. However in todays environment it appears (to me anyway) that for a given S/O or F/O position there is a great splay of experience (on my course the experience ranged from 1500hrs piston through to 8000hr jet time and everything in between). Now in an fluid environment where upgrades could perhaps occur fairly quickly within this varied experience base then perhaps the 'opportunity' for promotion would be better based on more than just seniority number so as to find the best candidate?
Perhaps for a startup airline such as Voz which I am guessing will have a widely varied experience base, this could be a good opportunity to try a different approach?
As a funny aside, VOz gave me a call and when asked how much I'd expect to be paid I said I would need to gross at least 100k in the first year. Never heard back after that...
Let the debate continue...
I'm am neither here nor there with seniority based (i.e. number given based on date of joining) vs any other system, however the debate has as many valid points against (of which I do not time to list) as there are for...
An 'opportunity' you say? Well yes to a degree but when push comes to shove its the date of joining which has the final say... Why not a system whereby seniority counts for a majority of ones promotion but also included is an element of past training/ check history and perhaps even a small dose of personal development as judged by a designated mentor?? Just a thought...
With relevance to todays environment, I think that in its day seniority systems may have made sense for a group of aviators with largely the same experience base (well seasoned GA, regional, military etc.) and a very stagnated progression towards upgrades. However in todays environment it appears (to me anyway) that for a given S/O or F/O position there is a great splay of experience (on my course the experience ranged from 1500hrs piston through to 8000hr jet time and everything in between). Now in an fluid environment where upgrades could perhaps occur fairly quickly within this varied experience base then perhaps the 'opportunity' for promotion would be better based on more than just seniority number so as to find the best candidate?
Perhaps for a startup airline such as Voz which I am guessing will have a widely varied experience base, this could be a good opportunity to try a different approach?
As a funny aside, VOz gave me a call and when asked how much I'd expect to be paid I said I would need to gross at least 100k in the first year. Never heard back after that...
Let the debate continue...
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............average t&c's initially with the promise of better things once the airline got up and running.
The Virgin group seem to make a habit of this. However, as someone has already pointed out, it's not the management at fault here, it's the gullible crew whom actually believe the spin and fall for it time and time again.
hongkongfooey,
Yeah that's great but where do you have to buy that house? Oh, Honkers, that's right, what a shame. Thanks but no thanks, I'd rather just go there for a few nights each month, stay in a nice hotel, sink beers in LKF and come home to sunny Sydney.
FullySickBro,
Whilst seniority does seem daunting and unfair at the bottom of a huge list like QF (as we both are), it IS the fairest system an airline can have. To me, merit isn't an issue as we all pass regular cyclics and an endorsement when you upgrade. If you don't meet the requirements to upgrade to F/O or Captain then the next most junior (and willing) person on the list can put their hand up.
What's not fair about that? You pass your sims, you perform to the standard, you get a chance when your number comes up. If you don't, you won't upgrade and the next person on the list gets a go - that IS merit....isn't it?
TL
P.S. Bro, when we catching up for a hit/beer? I'm sure you can fit me into your busy schedule
Yeah that's great but where do you have to buy that house? Oh, Honkers, that's right, what a shame. Thanks but no thanks, I'd rather just go there for a few nights each month, stay in a nice hotel, sink beers in LKF and come home to sunny Sydney.
FullySickBro,
Whilst seniority does seem daunting and unfair at the bottom of a huge list like QF (as we both are), it IS the fairest system an airline can have. To me, merit isn't an issue as we all pass regular cyclics and an endorsement when you upgrade. If you don't meet the requirements to upgrade to F/O or Captain then the next most junior (and willing) person on the list can put their hand up.
What's not fair about that? You pass your sims, you perform to the standard, you get a chance when your number comes up. If you don't, you won't upgrade and the next person on the list gets a go - that IS merit....isn't it?
TL
P.S. Bro, when we catching up for a hit/beer? I'm sure you can fit me into your busy schedule
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Yeah that's great but where do you have to buy that house? Oh, Honkers, that's right, what a shame. Thanks but no thanks, I'd rather just go there for a few nights each month, stay in a nice hotel, sink beers in LKF and come home to sunny Sydney.
But hey, however you roll is cool, just don't try and make it sound like we're doin' it tuff up here On the upside my outfit will have paid 2/3 of a 1.4milAUD property in 10 years, how about yours ?
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They will also have paid my childrens private school and university education expenses up until they turn 21. Not to mention all of our medical expenses and my tax. And I can enjoy a beer in sunny "anywhere" having been paid to get there with my lump sum staff travel fund, during my 10 weeks annual leave. And did I mention that my 13th month pay will cover the beer costs? 
But as I have said earlier, it is our own private reasons and belief systems that lead to where we are. No wrong or wright, it's just the way it is.
But as I have said earlier, it is our own private reasons and belief systems that lead to where we are. No wrong or wright, it's just the way it is.
Absolutely guys, each to their own...everyone has their own price on what it's worth to live somewhere.
Definitely wasn't trying to make it sound like you were "doin' it tuff" hongkongfooey just expressing an opinion that HKG isn't my idea of a great place to live. Money isn't everything...
Definitely wasn't trying to make it sound like you were "doin' it tuff" hongkongfooey just expressing an opinion that HKG isn't my idea of a great place to live. Money isn't everything...
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Gee Fergus, that would be diminishing my annonymity by giving you that information, but hey, what the?.................In the "Fragrant Harbour" or Honkers as it is probably better known.