Letter from AIPA to Jet* Pilots
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: BNE
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Letter from AIPA to Jet* Pilots
Got my letter from President Woods today. I reckon he's highlighted some very good reasons for the JPC to get together with AIPA ASAP!
The company only opened up the EBA early because of the looming pilot shortage and why would we want to lock ourselves in for 5 years
Labor is bringing in a new bill during Feb which will include a safety net provision of redundancy of 16 weeks! Our eba proposal only has 8
Collective agreements will be limited to a max of 4 years... again why the rush to lock in 5 years with our skills now so much in demand
If we vote this one up fellas we have a key component of our remuneration dependant on the sole discretion of Jet* management
Not happy Jan about that one!
WE NEED TO VOTE NO TO ROUND ONE and get AIPA in to make sure we cross all the T's and dot our I's. I also want some professionals looking after our interests when it comes time to fight against the ineviatable push by the company to use 457 visas to employ direct entry captains
Come on fellas... are you with me
The company only opened up the EBA early because of the looming pilot shortage and why would we want to lock ourselves in for 5 years
Labor is bringing in a new bill during Feb which will include a safety net provision of redundancy of 16 weeks! Our eba proposal only has 8
Collective agreements will be limited to a max of 4 years... again why the rush to lock in 5 years with our skills now so much in demand
If we vote this one up fellas we have a key component of our remuneration dependant on the sole discretion of Jet* management
Not happy Jan about that one!
WE NEED TO VOTE NO TO ROUND ONE and get AIPA in to make sure we cross all the T's and dot our I's. I also want some professionals looking after our interests when it comes time to fight against the ineviatable push by the company to use 457 visas to employ direct entry captains
Come on fellas... are you with me
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: In the CRC
Age: 49
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I heard a story yesterday saying that J* had been in South Africa recruiting pilots (Not Dec's, but offering six months to command)on 457 visas. Some are in for interviews soon.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,569
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Geeeez I wish you guys/gals well for the future 'battle'. It makes me feel sad to see/hear that being in charge of a craft that requires skill & daring to manipulate is a struggle even before you get off the ground!
The Co's are leaning on the fact that you/me/I/we love flying & therefore use that love to their advantage when it comes to T&C's by way of giving you the least for gaining the most.
Am rooting for you lot
Remember they may take away yr entitlements, they may take away yr stability & they may even take away yr basic rights given enough wearing down but they'll never take away yr freedom !!!
CW
The Co's are leaning on the fact that you/me/I/we love flying & therefore use that love to their advantage when it comes to T&C's by way of giving you the least for gaining the most.
Am rooting for you lot
Remember they may take away yr entitlements, they may take away yr stability & they may even take away yr basic rights given enough wearing down but they'll never take away yr freedom !!!
CW
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Been said before,but now is the time for ALL QF group pilots to band together,put aside past resentments and stand united against this most devisive of management teams.AIPA's push for a Group Opportunity List has the best chance of success in this current environment of pilot shortage.Only a very short sighted management would not be able to see the advantage to be gained in retaining it's key staff...it's pilots...and providing it's pilots with the ability to move from type to type, shorthaul to longhaul, LCC vs mainline, regional to mainline etc.
As a group, rather than sneering at each other and resenting the LCC guys...or sneering at the mainline "legacy carrier" doomed pilots, let the NEW AIPA help to acheive the best result for ALL QF Group pilots.
Here's hoping!!
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 477
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
why would we want to lock ourselves in for 5 years
Lock in the good stuff during high demand periods, rather than risk re-negotiating during an economic slump.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In a burrow
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't know if the offer has appeared on here yet, but a mate of a mate in J* (so may not be 100% accurate) told me it was very ordinary, and it's no wonder J* would want it locked in for 5 years, nearly a year before its due.
The guts of it was;
3% increase on signing - A320 145K and A330 165K,
6% retention bonus paid every 2 years,
A profit share plan for Capts initially, and FO's after 3 yrs,
a couple of more days off per month,
overtime above 75hrs at something like $200/hr for Capt's.
There is more likely more to it, one would hope so.
Its no wonder V Aust are only offering 180 - 210K for 777 Capts, when they look at what the opposition are accepting.
Vote it down and get proper representation. (if that's possible these days?)
The guts of it was;
3% increase on signing - A320 145K and A330 165K,
6% retention bonus paid every 2 years,
A profit share plan for Capts initially, and FO's after 3 yrs,
a couple of more days off per month,
overtime above 75hrs at something like $200/hr for Capt's.
There is more likely more to it, one would hope so.
Its no wonder V Aust are only offering 180 - 210K for 777 Capts, when they look at what the opposition are accepting.
Vote it down and get proper representation. (if that's possible these days?)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Roguesville, cloud cuckooland
Posts: 1,197
Likes: 0
Received 16 Likes
on
5 Posts
According to IFALPA in their latest mag, there are 350,000 airline pilots globally and they are retiring at a rate of 15000-20000 p.a.
Their replacements are coming through at a rate of 3500-5000 p.a.
IFALPA has done the figures on the pilots required to fly the aircraft currently on order from the major manufacturers for delivery in the next few years and they will require 108,000 pilot to fly them.
Some of those aircraft will be for replacements of current fleets, but IFALPA makes the point that most older fleets got shaken out in the aftermath of 2001. They estimate that 30% of these aircraft are replacements and the rest are expansion. That would generate a need for 75,000 pilots over and above the current population.
If 50% of these aircraft are replacements, then the new pilot requirements numbers are still 55,000, in a time of actual declining numbers.
Even the US going into recession will not be enough to lessen the impact of these numbers.
Jetstar pilots, it's time to take a small punt on your futures... say no to this offer and sign any counter-offer under the new workplace laws, not the current Workchoices insult.
You have nothing to lose. If the Group allocation list gets up then you still get your Jetstar commands before anyone else plus, as a bonus, a number on the mainline and Qantaslink lists.
As a by-product, the mainline FO's and SO's who eventually come across to fly with you will thank you. It is a no-brainer if you ask me.
Their replacements are coming through at a rate of 3500-5000 p.a.
IFALPA has done the figures on the pilots required to fly the aircraft currently on order from the major manufacturers for delivery in the next few years and they will require 108,000 pilot to fly them.
Some of those aircraft will be for replacements of current fleets, but IFALPA makes the point that most older fleets got shaken out in the aftermath of 2001. They estimate that 30% of these aircraft are replacements and the rest are expansion. That would generate a need for 75,000 pilots over and above the current population.
If 50% of these aircraft are replacements, then the new pilot requirements numbers are still 55,000, in a time of actual declining numbers.
Even the US going into recession will not be enough to lessen the impact of these numbers.
Jetstar pilots, it's time to take a small punt on your futures... say no to this offer and sign any counter-offer under the new workplace laws, not the current Workchoices insult.
You have nothing to lose. If the Group allocation list gets up then you still get your Jetstar commands before anyone else plus, as a bonus, a number on the mainline and Qantaslink lists.
As a by-product, the mainline FO's and SO's who eventually come across to fly with you will thank you. It is a no-brainer if you ask me.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wonder what it would take for the J* pilot group to transfer to AIPA in droves?
A loss of job security or potential growth perhaps?
How quick can the rug be pulled to potential expansion?
How often is the Qantas group flying plan reviewed?
Did someone say Australian Airlines.
A loss of job security or potential growth perhaps?
How quick can the rug be pulled to potential expansion?
How often is the Qantas group flying plan reviewed?
Did someone say Australian Airlines.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can’t help but agree with most of the sentiments expressed above with the following reservation. AIPA’s proposal for a Group Opportunity Allocation List and push for each of the industrial councils to work together is not about a grab for power.
AIPA is not out to start a turf war but rather is attempting to ensure the lawn is made bigger for everyone to stroll on and is made of a (insert here a nice type of grass – as I am no horticulturalist!).
There was a comment on another thread, which is now locked, to the effect that the proposals are aimed at QF mainline pilots usurping all of the commands in Jetstar. Nothing could be further from the truth. A GOAL ensures that any pilot within his own airline is guaranteed first refusal on any promotional position before anyone from the other group airlines can bid for it. Further he always retains that right and seniority even if he does not take a slot when it is first available. This is exactly how it works in mainline with the Q and A pilots combined list.
I would also take this opportunity to again point out that in the EBA vote that is about to commence that Jetstar pilots are voting on a non-union collective agreement. Make no mistake; no union has any respondency to the proposed agreement. If the EBA is voted up you will be specifically locking out any union representation for 5 years. Think very carefully before ticking the yes or no box.
AIPA is not out to start a turf war but rather is attempting to ensure the lawn is made bigger for everyone to stroll on and is made of a (insert here a nice type of grass – as I am no horticulturalist!).
There was a comment on another thread, which is now locked, to the effect that the proposals are aimed at QF mainline pilots usurping all of the commands in Jetstar. Nothing could be further from the truth. A GOAL ensures that any pilot within his own airline is guaranteed first refusal on any promotional position before anyone from the other group airlines can bid for it. Further he always retains that right and seniority even if he does not take a slot when it is first available. This is exactly how it works in mainline with the Q and A pilots combined list.
I would also take this opportunity to again point out that in the EBA vote that is about to commence that Jetstar pilots are voting on a non-union collective agreement. Make no mistake; no union has any respondency to the proposed agreement. If the EBA is voted up you will be specifically locking out any union representation for 5 years. Think very carefully before ticking the yes or no box.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just Relaxin, your view is in direct opposition to the AFAP's view that they are currently a party to and bound by the current Jetstar Agreement. Do you know something that they don't?
How do you know that the proposed Jetstar Agreement would lock out union representation. Friends of mine there tell me that the agreement provides for representation from a Union or any other person of the pilots choice. They say it does not lock out union representation. Are you certain of this fact?
Mstr caution, we have already seen what it takes for Qantas pilots to transfer to Jetstar in droves. Droves so big that QF management put a stop to it. But you are right of course, when push comes to shove, most pilots will do what they think they have to in order to ensure their survival.
How do you know that the proposed Jetstar Agreement would lock out union representation. Friends of mine there tell me that the agreement provides for representation from a Union or any other person of the pilots choice. They say it does not lock out union representation. Are you certain of this fact?
Mstr caution, we have already seen what it takes for Qantas pilots to transfer to Jetstar in droves. Droves so big that QF management put a stop to it. But you are right of course, when push comes to shove, most pilots will do what they think they have to in order to ensure their survival.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Turb Tool,
I hardly think there was a max exodus from QF mainline to Jetstar.
Do you really think that management put a stop to the transfer fearing they would loose mainline pilots in "droves" or was it because:
1. They know the master plan & know where the massive expansion (read: establishment numbers) will ocurr in the next few years.
2. Already manage who goes where within the group.
3. Have realised the value of the individuals they have trained & developed within mainline & recognise their importance to mainline expansion.
4. Are planning for the actual pilot shortage of current & potential recruits.
I hardly think there was a max exodus from QF mainline to Jetstar.
Do you really think that management put a stop to the transfer fearing they would loose mainline pilots in "droves" or was it because:
1. They know the master plan & know where the massive expansion (read: establishment numbers) will ocurr in the next few years.
2. Already manage who goes where within the group.
3. Have realised the value of the individuals they have trained & developed within mainline & recognise their importance to mainline expansion.
4. Are planning for the actual pilot shortage of current & potential recruits.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TurbTool
If you click on this link http://www.airc.gov.au/awards/tracee/agreements/pdf/AG843278.pdf you will see the current Jetstar Airways Pilots Agreement 2005 which does not expire until 29 September 2008. This has been opened early and is the vote that is about to take place for the new EBA.
Search the document carefully and you will see there is absolutely no reference anywhere to the AFAP. Why, if as you say, they are saying they are “currently a party to and bound by the current Jetstar Agreement” is beyond me and is quite simply not borne out by the facts. The AFAP is not a party to the current Jetstar Airways Pilots Agreement 2005.
If you search the new offer you will similarly see that there is no mention of the AFAP in that document either. There is an incredible amount of mis-information being peddled by parties at the moment and I believe the JPA should be clarifying to all Jetstar pilots what they are actually voting for before the vote takes place.
If you click on this link http://www.airc.gov.au/awards/tracee/agreements/pdf/AG843278.pdf you will see the current Jetstar Airways Pilots Agreement 2005 which does not expire until 29 September 2008. This has been opened early and is the vote that is about to take place for the new EBA.
Search the document carefully and you will see there is absolutely no reference anywhere to the AFAP. Why, if as you say, they are saying they are “currently a party to and bound by the current Jetstar Agreement” is beyond me and is quite simply not borne out by the facts. The AFAP is not a party to the current Jetstar Airways Pilots Agreement 2005.
If you search the new offer you will similarly see that there is no mention of the AFAP in that document either. There is an incredible amount of mis-information being peddled by parties at the moment and I believe the JPA should be clarifying to all Jetstar pilots what they are actually voting for before the vote takes place.
Just voted "NO".
I hope my colleagues follow suit. We can then sit down with both unions and the JPA to nut out a better deal. This is a wonderful opportunity which could be the catalist for both unions to work together for the first time.
Vote wisely fellas.
I hope my colleagues follow suit. We can then sit down with both unions and the JPA to nut out a better deal. This is a wonderful opportunity which could be the catalist for both unions to work together for the first time.
Vote wisely fellas.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: BNE
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just heard from a mate in QANTAS mainline that Allan Joyce and President Woods agreed to meet mid February to discuss AIPA's coverage of all Qantas Group Pilots and the Group Opportunity Allocation List.
We have never been in a better bargaining position guys... lets VOTE NO to round one and give AIPA and our mainline collegues a show of our good faith (and something to bargain with)
We have never been in a better bargaining position guys... lets VOTE NO to round one and give AIPA and our mainline collegues a show of our good faith (and something to bargain with
)
Wise to get the best deal and a combined effort is essential considering we are about to enter the downward side in the economic cycle.
I think the proposed JQ expansion will not proceed as planned unfortunately so best to use all you've got.
I think the proposed JQ expansion will not proceed as planned unfortunately so best to use all you've got.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: thelodge
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Uniting the Qantas Group pilots
Some good posts here.
I can only think of positives for both Jetstar and Qantas pilots.
A group opportunity list will provide more options for everyone whilst keeping a united front.The Qantas group would love us to remain divided and to fight between each other. Lets F%#@ their plans to keep us divided.
If you want to stay on the A320 for years then you have that choice but at some point individuals may feel like a change and this will make it possible.Greater choices are a bonus for both groups.
A united union will be stronger and have far more influence on Qantas management.To jump in now to a collective AWA seems daft.
There will always be sceptics but the majority of both Jetstar and Qantas pilots are hardworking good people who both deserve good union representation and decent conditions to go with it.
Here is a great chance to unite all Qantas Group pilots.Time to grow up, ignore the company spin and the moaners and move forward for the good of all group pilots.
Perhaps we should organise a piss up and a BBQ with both JQ and QF flight crew. I'm sure then we would all realise that there are great guys and girls in both Jetstar and Qantas.
I can only think of positives for both Jetstar and Qantas pilots.
A group opportunity list will provide more options for everyone whilst keeping a united front.The Qantas group would love us to remain divided and to fight between each other. Lets F%#@ their plans to keep us divided.
If you want to stay on the A320 for years then you have that choice but at some point individuals may feel like a change and this will make it possible.Greater choices are a bonus for both groups.
A united union will be stronger and have far more influence on Qantas management.To jump in now to a collective AWA seems daft.
There will always be sceptics but the majority of both Jetstar and Qantas pilots are hardworking good people who both deserve good union representation and decent conditions to go with it.
Here is a great chance to unite all Qantas Group pilots.Time to grow up, ignore the company spin and the moaners and move forward for the good of all group pilots.
Perhaps we should organise a piss up and a BBQ with both JQ and QF flight crew. I'm sure then we would all realise that there are great guys and girls in both Jetstar and Qantas.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: messemate way to bondi icebergs
Posts: 411
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
About time the QANTAS group started to act like a group.
I'll bring a case of beer to this BBQ MR "fearcampaign". I'm sure we can arange some of the Dash boyz too.
In fact why don't the Jet* boyz bring some of those flash young hosties and I'll help work on some intergroup relations
I'll bring a case of beer to this BBQ MR "fearcampaign". I'm sure we can arange some of the Dash boyz too.
In fact why don't the Jet* boyz bring some of those flash young hosties and I'll help work on some intergroup relations
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: australia
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just voted "NO".
I hope my colleagues follow suit. We can then sit down with both unions and the JPA to nut out a better deal. This is a wonderful opportunity which could be the catalist for both unions to work together for the first time.
Vote wisely fellas.
Well said Packs On I agree completely lets VOTE NO get the unions involved and watch them sweat a little.
This type of thread should have been the norm for the last 3 years, you get my point boys
I hope my colleagues follow suit. We can then sit down with both unions and the JPA to nut out a better deal. This is a wonderful opportunity which could be the catalist for both unions to work together for the first time.
Vote wisely fellas.
Well said Packs On I agree completely lets VOTE NO get the unions involved and watch them sweat a little.
This type of thread should have been the norm for the last 3 years, you get my point boys
I also just voted NO.
It seems bizzare that the JPA are recommending a yes vote, and yet BOTH AIPA and AFAP are recommeding a no vote.
Hopefully when this gets voted down next week, there will be an internal election amongst Jetstar pilots, and we can get a new pilot council that we an have some faith & trust in, instead of selling us out for a minor monetry gain. Aligning ourselves with AIPA and making the QF GROUP pilots a force to be reckoned with against Dixon & Joyce.
Big picture stuff here guys. The Low Cost is behind the flight deck door, NOT forward of it.
BTW, the vibe now after Lawrie Cox and Ian Woods wrote to us, has opened the eyes of quite a few of the yes voters. Here's hoping!
It seems bizzare that the JPA are recommending a yes vote, and yet BOTH AIPA and AFAP are recommeding a no vote.
Hopefully when this gets voted down next week, there will be an internal election amongst Jetstar pilots, and we can get a new pilot council that we an have some faith & trust in, instead of selling us out for a minor monetry gain. Aligning ourselves with AIPA and making the QF GROUP pilots a force to be reckoned with against Dixon & Joyce.
Big picture stuff here guys. The Low Cost is behind the flight deck door, NOT forward of it.
BTW, the vibe now after Lawrie Cox and Ian Woods wrote to us, has opened the eyes of quite a few of the yes voters. Here's hoping!