Letter from AIPA to Jet* Pilots
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Gnad....add to that list the QF Heritage drivers being way too gutless to ensure they had a working Scope Clause which would have ensured that everyone in the Group had a single list and single T & C.
But even having said that....what does the Group as a whole do, safe and secure in its little introspective world.....when Tiger comes? Virgin? Lion? SIA? Nothing?
I still can't quite see why JQ pilots have to secure the T and C of all pilots. The EBA from what little I know doesn't seem horrible. All the pilots are volunteers as far as I know. If it causes grief to AIPA let them start an action programme involving themselves. It might take a lot of grief and pain and lost days form mainline pilots to get that Scope Clause back (because that's what we're really talking about).....but it would give AIPA what they want. It wouldn't stop there being several Jetstar clones but it would at least enable all Heritage pilots to be paid the same as the good ship Qantas sinks slowly in the west.
But even having said that....what does the Group as a whole do, safe and secure in its little introspective world.....when Tiger comes? Virgin? Lion? SIA? Nothing?
I still can't quite see why JQ pilots have to secure the T and C of all pilots. The EBA from what little I know doesn't seem horrible. All the pilots are volunteers as far as I know. If it causes grief to AIPA let them start an action programme involving themselves. It might take a lot of grief and pain and lost days form mainline pilots to get that Scope Clause back (because that's what we're really talking about).....but it would give AIPA what they want. It wouldn't stop there being several Jetstar clones but it would at least enable all Heritage pilots to be paid the same as the good ship Qantas sinks slowly in the west.
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Chimbu says;
Thats exactly what management want pilot groups to think - if it gets voted down the sky will fall in.
Virgin pulled this tactic out of the bag for round two, and unfortunately 53% fell for it. (many who are now saying "what was I thinking!!)
If, by some bizarre aligning of the stars, the J* pilot group actually voted down this EBA based on this prodding from pilot groups not currently employed by J*, and it blew up in the faces of the current J* pilot group and they ended up on worse/no better T&Cs
Virgin pulled this tactic out of the bag for round two, and unfortunately 53% fell for it. (many who are now saying "what was I thinking!!)
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Nice try Genex and Chimbu, however logic has no place in the land of Mainline.
Funny isn't it. People normally considered intelligent putting forth arguments which make no sense, on subject matter to which they have no idea, and attempting to pervert an outcome to which they are not directly affected by.
Sort of like playing God for sport.
Perhaps the QF band here would like to tell us all WHY AIPA are recommending a NO vote for the Jetstar EBA?
I'll give you a hint....... a really really big one....... it is NOT, I repeat NOT because of the money.
I SAY AGAIN..... It is NOT because of the Money.
But I guess you all already knew that.
Funny isn't it. People normally considered intelligent putting forth arguments which make no sense, on subject matter to which they have no idea, and attempting to pervert an outcome to which they are not directly affected by.
Sort of like playing God for sport.
Perhaps the QF band here would like to tell us all WHY AIPA are recommending a NO vote for the Jetstar EBA?
I'll give you a hint....... a really really big one....... it is NOT, I repeat NOT because of the money.
I SAY AGAIN..... It is NOT because of the Money.
But I guess you all already knew that.
The CX union Pilot's overwhelmingly voted to reject the C scale on the Oz basing. CX then chose to impose it. WHY? because thet T & C's for Oz Pilot's is going down the toilet fast and they thought they could get away with it.
So my point is valid, I hope the J* Pilot's say NO to their EBA offer.
I don't want CX getting any more ammunition to drag down the pay in Oz.
Ok? Do you get it now?
So my point is valid, I hope the J* Pilot's say NO to their EBA offer.
I don't want CX getting any more ammunition to drag down the pay in Oz.
Ok? Do you get it now?
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Mustafagander, thank you for your response. Great to see someone who can post rationally. I appreciate that things don't always work out as we have in mind and can be quite difficult to correct.
Cloudy, happy to work with you. Will your offer still be open if the J* pilots vote YES. It will take time to win each others trust, but the AIPA have only just come onto our radar effectively.
gondwalla, your posts are not worth responding to.
tenretni, I agree with you, this appears to be more about AIPA vs AFAP than anything to do with the J* eba. Thank you for your insightful comments. I think they will be very helpful to those J* pilots who have been undecided. After all the controversy seems to be more about WHO negotiates on behalf of J* pilots than the actual content of the EBA.
Chimbu, as always very logical, sadly lost on the emotive posters. I struggle with the concept "CX screwed us, we voted against it, but because of those J* pricks we had no choice but to accept terms/conditions that we did not like, to work in an AUS base. C'mon you J* guys, you must hold out for a better deal for our sake."
genex, great posts, keep it up.
To all other posters on this topic, some rational and others not, I have lost interest in this thread and will not bother with it any more.
Bring on the vote result.
Cloudy, happy to work with you. Will your offer still be open if the J* pilots vote YES. It will take time to win each others trust, but the AIPA have only just come onto our radar effectively.
gondwalla, your posts are not worth responding to.
tenretni, I agree with you, this appears to be more about AIPA vs AFAP than anything to do with the J* eba. Thank you for your insightful comments. I think they will be very helpful to those J* pilots who have been undecided. After all the controversy seems to be more about WHO negotiates on behalf of J* pilots than the actual content of the EBA.
Chimbu, as always very logical, sadly lost on the emotive posters. I struggle with the concept "CX screwed us, we voted against it, but because of those J* pricks we had no choice but to accept terms/conditions that we did not like, to work in an AUS base. C'mon you J* guys, you must hold out for a better deal for our sake."
genex, great posts, keep it up.
To all other posters on this topic, some rational and others not, I have lost interest in this thread and will not bother with it any more.
Bring on the vote result.
Last edited by fistfokker; 28th Jan 2008 at 08:21.
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Bring on the Recession I say!
Lets see just how everyone ends up then.
Will the all conquering JetStar/JPC Ansett BBQ Brigade, reign supreme or will the "Heritige Airline" APIA led chappies pip them at the post?
Lets see just how everyone ends up then.
Will the all conquering JetStar/JPC Ansett BBQ Brigade, reign supreme or will the "Heritige Airline" APIA led chappies pip them at the post?
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Unity
Genex,
I really find it hard to accept your negative spin with a divide the troops mentality.
You are playing into the hands of Oldmeadow and his divide and conquer strategy.What is your agenda? Why are you scared of a unified group?
Stop digging up old wounds and get on with the future.
A future where Jetstar, Qantas and Eastern pilots are under the one banner and can fight together as a well funded and unified group.
We all fly aircraft of different kinds and most Jetstar, Eastern and Qantas pilots are good, honest, hardworking professionals.
AIPA may have had a bad rap in the past but a dodgy deal was done where the ex president of AIPA told Jetstar pilots to get nicked and was made the chief pilot only weeks later.An appointment made by Geoff Dixon to ensure that the Jetstar workforce was not unionised.
QF pilots hate the chief pilot as most were smart enough to realise that a unified group was essential and saw the obvious conflict of interest.
The company then "spin" us lies that each "group" is the baddie.Qantas is full of old cronies.Jetstar is full of low hour beginners.What tosh!!! Both are untrue!!! Let us not be so stupid as to take the bait and infight.
It is a new day with a unique opportunity to unite our workforces.
Take a look at military and industrial history for the results of divided units.Unity will always provide a stronger force.
Let us all grow up, unite the Jetstar and Qantas group pilots and look positively toward a united pilot group with more options for all
I really find it hard to accept your negative spin with a divide the troops mentality.
You are playing into the hands of Oldmeadow and his divide and conquer strategy.What is your agenda? Why are you scared of a unified group?
Stop digging up old wounds and get on with the future.
A future where Jetstar, Qantas and Eastern pilots are under the one banner and can fight together as a well funded and unified group.
We all fly aircraft of different kinds and most Jetstar, Eastern and Qantas pilots are good, honest, hardworking professionals.
AIPA may have had a bad rap in the past but a dodgy deal was done where the ex president of AIPA told Jetstar pilots to get nicked and was made the chief pilot only weeks later.An appointment made by Geoff Dixon to ensure that the Jetstar workforce was not unionised.
QF pilots hate the chief pilot as most were smart enough to realise that a unified group was essential and saw the obvious conflict of interest.
The company then "spin" us lies that each "group" is the baddie.Qantas is full of old cronies.Jetstar is full of low hour beginners.What tosh!!! Both are untrue!!! Let us not be so stupid as to take the bait and infight.
It is a new day with a unique opportunity to unite our workforces.
Take a look at military and industrial history for the results of divided units.Unity will always provide a stronger force.
Let us all grow up, unite the Jetstar and Qantas group pilots and look positively toward a united pilot group with more options for all
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I agree. Very good post. Maybe if some of the anti-AIPA brigade here started thinking with their heads we could get somewhere.
By using your heads I mean this; the company's main industrial tactic post Workchoices is going to be divide and conquer. That will only work if your allow your predjudice's to be confirmed by what you choose to hear.
But consider this;
AIPA is the only organisation that has legal coverage of the Qantas group. If we are ever going to be united it cannot be with a mish mash of representational organisations. If that means going to the BALPA umbrella model where every company has its own council which does the industrial negotiations for its particular company, so be it. At least the negotiations would be to a master plan of refusing to allow pilots to be played against each other.
Those of you who bring up ancient history in your zeal to keep AIPA away are playing into the hands of management. No-one is saying that AIPA couldn't have done it much better with the benefit of hindsight. But if we are ever to break this cycle that management plays on ad infinitum, then pilots are going to have to be as smart and professional industrially as the forces pitted against them.
That means using your heads for once.
By using your heads I mean this; the company's main industrial tactic post Workchoices is going to be divide and conquer. That will only work if your allow your predjudice's to be confirmed by what you choose to hear.
But consider this;
AIPA is the only organisation that has legal coverage of the Qantas group. If we are ever going to be united it cannot be with a mish mash of representational organisations. If that means going to the BALPA umbrella model where every company has its own council which does the industrial negotiations for its particular company, so be it. At least the negotiations would be to a master plan of refusing to allow pilots to be played against each other.
Those of you who bring up ancient history in your zeal to keep AIPA away are playing into the hands of management. No-one is saying that AIPA couldn't have done it much better with the benefit of hindsight. But if we are ever to break this cycle that management plays on ad infinitum, then pilots are going to have to be as smart and professional industrially as the forces pitted against them.
That means using your heads for once.
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"If that means going to the BALPA umbrella model where every company has its own council which does the industrial negotiations for its particular company, so be it. At least the negotiations would be to a master plan of refusing to allow pilots to be played against each other."
This would be the best suggestion out of all the postings on this subject. It would allow for differences in issues facing Group airlines to be sorted out at a "local" level while strategic issues can be decided at higher levels. As a start to try and get some unity then the idea of a roadshow by those wanting to represent Jetstar pilots would be welcome. At the end of the roadshow some drinks at the bar where all Group pilots could come along would allow some of the barriers to be broken down.
This would be the best suggestion out of all the postings on this subject. It would allow for differences in issues facing Group airlines to be sorted out at a "local" level while strategic issues can be decided at higher levels. As a start to try and get some unity then the idea of a roadshow by those wanting to represent Jetstar pilots would be welcome. At the end of the roadshow some drinks at the bar where all Group pilots could come along would allow some of the barriers to be broken down.
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PERMFO the organisation already exists. It is called AusALPA but it is toothless at the moment due to the turf wars that have raged up until now.
If anyone reading this post is thinking that the umbrella group is the way to go, lobby your reps and lets get this thing finally doing what it should do, look after the interests of all Australian pilots.
If anyone reading this post is thinking that the umbrella group is the way to go, lobby your reps and lets get this thing finally doing what it should do, look after the interests of all Australian pilots.
