JQ EBA to sell out new hires
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Fair point CallButton, however I don't think there was too much negotiating. More like: -
J* "Here's a deal we think is just good enough to achieve our aims, so off you go and show your support."
JPA - "Yes but,.."
J* "No buts', now off you go!"
JPA "Ok, but what about those check and training positions"
J* "Be good and we'll see"
JPA "Ok then"
Next time round I don't see it being too different, as I said, I don't think there is much more money in the pot and there is the risk of missing the biggest bonus season ever. If this offer is rejected, don't expect another one for quite some time.
The biggest risk with the offer is that there are hidden traps in the detail.
J* "Here's a deal we think is just good enough to achieve our aims, so off you go and show your support."
JPA - "Yes but,.."
J* "No buts', now off you go!"
JPA "Ok, but what about those check and training positions"
J* "Be good and we'll see"
JPA "Ok then"
Next time round I don't see it being too different, as I said, I don't think there is much more money in the pot and there is the risk of missing the biggest bonus season ever. If this offer is rejected, don't expect another one for quite some time.
The biggest risk with the offer is that there are hidden traps in the detail.
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So as I understand it, a young F/O with a couple of thousand hours joins Jetstar, flies the 320 as an F/O for a thousand or so hours, then the 787 for a thousand or so as an F/O then gets a 320 command then after a couple of years hard work learning the ropes on domestic routes in the left hand seat of the 320, a 787 command. After a couple of years time to either move o/s on a 777 or 787 contract or settle down to a pleasant Jetstar life doing a couple of Europe or US trips a month plus a couple of trips to SE Asia. Rest of time on yacht or at beach.
Hmmmm....how can this all be so terrible? I must be missing something.
Hmmmm....how can this all be so terrible? I must be missing something.
Nunc est bibendum
Yes, you're missing quite a lot. Europe trips tend to take at least eight days or so depending on the frequency into the European port. SE Asia trips are generally 3-4 days. You've just signed on for at least 22 days of work a month by my calculation. Doesn't leave much time for the yacht. 
PS: How are you going to afford aforementioned yacht on the current J* offering?
PS: How are you going to afford aforementioned yacht on the current J* offering?
Hmmmm....how can this all be so terrible?
But the beach and yacht lifestyle sounds great. I'm jealous. But can you afford a yacht or a seven figure beachouse?
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I give up. Being of a naturally positive disposition I naturally see the part of the glass that's full. But, if it makes some of you guys happy to think of a poor 787 captain stuck endlessly in Europe, his cheap yacht being despoiled by seagulls while his wife and children eat cold baked beans in their non-beachside house, then so be it.
One point to consider when voting on this agreement is whether or not a situation will arise in the future where there are more "new hires" on the lesser conditions than those of you who get to vote this time around.
If this is the case, then be VERY CAREFUL about voting it up, as the company can, and in all likelihood will offer an agreement in the future to give them (new hires) a payrise to bring you lot down to a median level.
Why would the company come to you offering you a payrise? Its not out of goodwill! I'd suggest they are using similar tactics to what QF used on their Long Haul Cabin Crew.
If it really is 'all about you' as some posters in this agreement have suggested, then please have a think about the future. Are you going to be outnumbered by people who will cut you down to feather their own nests?
Just a thought....
If this is the case, then be VERY CAREFUL about voting it up, as the company can, and in all likelihood will offer an agreement in the future to give them (new hires) a payrise to bring you lot down to a median level.
Why would the company come to you offering you a payrise? Its not out of goodwill! I'd suggest they are using similar tactics to what QF used on their Long Haul Cabin Crew.
If it really is 'all about you' as some posters in this agreement have suggested, then please have a think about the future. Are you going to be outnumbered by people who will cut you down to feather their own nests?
Just a thought....
Last edited by OneDotLow; 15th Jan 2008 at 02:55.
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Perhaps those here with a myopic one legacy airline experience of the world would think that it takes 8 days to get to Europe and back.
However, unlike the Holiday Airline, where the aircraft is one great party bus to get you to the next vacation spot, most airlines these days adopt the apparently draconian approach of actually expecting their pilots to work whilst on duty. Usually that means:
No 48hr slips southbound from Europe
No 36 hr min slip time in London.
No massive allowances southbound
If you cut the fat out, you could quite easily get up to Europe and back in 6 days. Keep the family happy, less fatiguing (see FRMS), less cost to the company and as a bonus, less sitting around fattys and bars listening to BS stories.
I believe Emirates are a good example of this approach.
However, unlike the Holiday Airline, where the aircraft is one great party bus to get you to the next vacation spot, most airlines these days adopt the apparently draconian approach of actually expecting their pilots to work whilst on duty. Usually that means:
No 48hr slips southbound from Europe
No 36 hr min slip time in London.
No massive allowances southbound
If you cut the fat out, you could quite easily get up to Europe and back in 6 days. Keep the family happy, less fatiguing (see FRMS), less cost to the company and as a bonus, less sitting around fattys and bars listening to BS stories.
I believe Emirates are a good example of this approach.
JJW,
Not sure who you're working for now (sounds like QF, either that or you have some mates who do). Personally 36hrs in LHR is the absolute minimum I need to go to work feeling human. Unlike Emirates, we are either 9 or 11hrs out of our "home" time zone, and sleeping more than 4 or 5 hours straight is a tough ask.
We are at the end of the line when we get to Europe from Australia and therefore need a bit more rest to recover. The comparison to Sing Air or Cathay or Emirates isn't quite the same. When we fly to the West Coast of the US with one sector each way and only 5hrs time difference, then 30 odd hours rest is definitely adequate. Over and back in 4 days is a piece of piss.
As an example, ever done 24hrs southbound in Singapore after operating the QF32 from London (morning arrival into SIN)? Get off the aircraft feeling like ****, can't help but sleep most of the day, up all night and finally getting back to sleep just as the phone rings in the morning to go to work. It's called circadian rhythm and unfortunately there's not a lot you can do about it.
In any case, as long as people like Genex exist to ruin it for everyone then EBAs like this will always get up. I guess if you set your sights low then you'll never be disappointed. Probably why you're not in QF in the first place.
TL
Not sure who you're working for now (sounds like QF, either that or you have some mates who do). Personally 36hrs in LHR is the absolute minimum I need to go to work feeling human. Unlike Emirates, we are either 9 or 11hrs out of our "home" time zone, and sleeping more than 4 or 5 hours straight is a tough ask.
We are at the end of the line when we get to Europe from Australia and therefore need a bit more rest to recover. The comparison to Sing Air or Cathay or Emirates isn't quite the same. When we fly to the West Coast of the US with one sector each way and only 5hrs time difference, then 30 odd hours rest is definitely adequate. Over and back in 4 days is a piece of piss.
As an example, ever done 24hrs southbound in Singapore after operating the QF32 from London (morning arrival into SIN)? Get off the aircraft feeling like ****, can't help but sleep most of the day, up all night and finally getting back to sleep just as the phone rings in the morning to go to work. It's called circadian rhythm and unfortunately there's not a lot you can do about it.
In any case, as long as people like Genex exist to ruin it for everyone then EBAs like this will always get up. I guess if you set your sights low then you'll never be disappointed. Probably why you're not in QF in the first place.
TL
Nunc est bibendum
Transition Layer's comments show why actual experience at this type of flying and consideration of all the facts is important before making comments as to what is possible and what is not. 36 hour slips in Europe are possible if the airline schedule permits but often that's outside of the scope of the crew.
Personally I reckon that we can make some savings on some European sectors (and have suggested such to AIPA) but that just takes a nine day FRA trip down to eight days anyway!
Personally I reckon that we can make some savings on some European sectors (and have suggested such to AIPA) but that just takes a nine day FRA trip down to eight days anyway!
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Letsgorated,
Yes emotive, but probably needs saying. Your comments and discussions with a few of the blokes that left EK to go to that sh*t outfit have well and truely confirmed why we decided to stay in the desert. EK have got some serious problems as well, but at least when we go to work, it's mostly with very experienced boys and gals and very professional. Goose Joyce and Co wish and demand that the Jet* Pilot Council/Association (whatever it is called) headed by some ex impulse GA clown who has had a meteoric rise from an A320 F/O to a A330 "Training Capt" in a very short space of time, do all the EBA negotiations instead of the professionalism and experience of the AFAP and AIPA. I wonder whose interest that "experienced negotiater" has at heart. Sh*t, good luck boys and girls.
Yes emotive, but probably needs saying. Your comments and discussions with a few of the blokes that left EK to go to that sh*t outfit have well and truely confirmed why we decided to stay in the desert. EK have got some serious problems as well, but at least when we go to work, it's mostly with very experienced boys and gals and very professional. Goose Joyce and Co wish and demand that the Jet* Pilot Council/Association (whatever it is called) headed by some ex impulse GA clown who has had a meteoric rise from an A320 F/O to a A330 "Training Capt" in a very short space of time, do all the EBA negotiations instead of the professionalism and experience of the AFAP and AIPA. I wonder whose interest that "experienced negotiater" has at heart. Sh*t, good luck boys and girls.
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Get Professional Help !!!!!!!!!!!
I have been watching the progress of this thread from the start and can no longer refrain from posting.
The first post suggests that the JPA have sold out the new hires for some benefit to themselves.
If that is the true facts, is must be the most shortsighted, selfish and reprehensible act that any "negotiating team" could put to the pilot group, especially under the present situation of a serious pilot shortage.
Any suggestion of the JPA that they negotiate a "C" scale should be voted down 100% by the pilots.
What the hell are these characters thinking... can they begin to think of how these junior crew will have little respect for them and how that can affect the flight deck dynamics.
It has been suggested that the "generation Y" don't deserve anything better and whilst acknowledging that some seem to think the world owes them, they are trying to make their way in this industry the same way we all have, and it is incumbent upon any negotiating team to ensure they get the benefits we have.
Have the JPA ( assuming they are senior pilots) forgotten how difficult it was for them when they started their careers.
The question must be asked, "how close are the negotiating team to the management"???
It also seems from other posts, that the pilots will have only 2 weeks to digest, discuss and get independant advice on the proposed EBA before they are required to vote. This is a common tactic by the HR (Smiling Assassins) department as it gives the employees little time to "get organised"; for you are all flat strap flying, no doubt.
The negotiating team and the pilots they "purport" to represent must have a very good perspective of what makes the Smiling Ass's on the other side of the table tick, and the difference between the professional values of the opposing sides.
The pilot's..... it is a southeasterly stream in SYD, bucketting rain, low cloudbase; you get to the minima and see nothing but a grey opaque and the rain hammering on the windshield - missed approach. Directed to a holding pattern where the F/O feverishly works out a latest approach time before diverting to CBR, where the weather is not much better. Captain checks the numbers, ok.
ATC give you a second approach with 2 min's to spare; at the minima the Capt' sees 3 bars of the approach lights and lands at the max x'wind component on a wet runway.
Taxying to the terminal, the F/O looks across and says, "well done Captain" and the Capt' replies "great support mate, I think you are ready for that command training".
Walking side by side through the terminal and watching their pax being happily greeted by friends, they quietly reflect on how close those pax were to ending up in CBR where their was no accomodation and would have been faced with a 3 hr bus ride back to SYD.
The S Ass's....... well, at the end of the day they are down the pub bragging to their S A friends how they will be able to report back to Dickson, Oldmeadow and Joyce how they were able to keep the Jet* pilot wages at a below inflation 3% and Ha Ha Ha, even got them to sell out the new hires to a "c" scale.
Do these S Ass's have any loyalty to the Company? Not on your life; they will be off as hired guns to the next highest payer, using their results from previous negotiations as their leverage into other jobs.
So what must the JPA and the Jet* pilot's do?
First off, forget the idea that you can match the S Ass's; you are professional pilots, they are professional negotiators, trained in the psychology of negotiating and getting the upper hand over employees.
Next , vote down the EBA 100%.
Next, get professional industrial lawyers to assist .
Some posts have suggested the Jet* pilot's join AIPA; WHY NOT???
The IRC has given AIPA the right to industrial coverage of all Qantas Group pilots.
Obviously by doing that, the IRC recognised the benefit that could be gained to Qantas Group pilots by having a single professioal organisation represent them.
Those 2 pilots that flew into Syd........... does it matter that one may have been involved in an industrial dispute almost 20 yrs ago or the other is the son/daughter of a pilot who was.........the answer should be , NO!!!!!!!!
They did a professional job and had mutual respect for each others experience and skills.
It is high time that we get on with our jobs, and those older of us, that have gained so much from this wonderful industry, do our utmost to support, nurture and ensure that those that follow us have a liveable and comfortable future.
IT IS SURELY TIME, THAT QANTAS GROUP PILOTS COME TOGETHER FOR THE COMMON GOOD.
Role on......
The first post suggests that the JPA have sold out the new hires for some benefit to themselves.
If that is the true facts, is must be the most shortsighted, selfish and reprehensible act that any "negotiating team" could put to the pilot group, especially under the present situation of a serious pilot shortage.
Any suggestion of the JPA that they negotiate a "C" scale should be voted down 100% by the pilots.
What the hell are these characters thinking... can they begin to think of how these junior crew will have little respect for them and how that can affect the flight deck dynamics.
It has been suggested that the "generation Y" don't deserve anything better and whilst acknowledging that some seem to think the world owes them, they are trying to make their way in this industry the same way we all have, and it is incumbent upon any negotiating team to ensure they get the benefits we have.
Have the JPA ( assuming they are senior pilots) forgotten how difficult it was for them when they started their careers.
The question must be asked, "how close are the negotiating team to the management"???
It also seems from other posts, that the pilots will have only 2 weeks to digest, discuss and get independant advice on the proposed EBA before they are required to vote. This is a common tactic by the HR (Smiling Assassins) department as it gives the employees little time to "get organised"; for you are all flat strap flying, no doubt.
The negotiating team and the pilots they "purport" to represent must have a very good perspective of what makes the Smiling Ass's on the other side of the table tick, and the difference between the professional values of the opposing sides.
The pilot's..... it is a southeasterly stream in SYD, bucketting rain, low cloudbase; you get to the minima and see nothing but a grey opaque and the rain hammering on the windshield - missed approach. Directed to a holding pattern where the F/O feverishly works out a latest approach time before diverting to CBR, where the weather is not much better. Captain checks the numbers, ok.
ATC give you a second approach with 2 min's to spare; at the minima the Capt' sees 3 bars of the approach lights and lands at the max x'wind component on a wet runway.
Taxying to the terminal, the F/O looks across and says, "well done Captain" and the Capt' replies "great support mate, I think you are ready for that command training".
Walking side by side through the terminal and watching their pax being happily greeted by friends, they quietly reflect on how close those pax were to ending up in CBR where their was no accomodation and would have been faced with a 3 hr bus ride back to SYD.
The S Ass's....... well, at the end of the day they are down the pub bragging to their S A friends how they will be able to report back to Dickson, Oldmeadow and Joyce how they were able to keep the Jet* pilot wages at a below inflation 3% and Ha Ha Ha, even got them to sell out the new hires to a "c" scale.
Do these S Ass's have any loyalty to the Company? Not on your life; they will be off as hired guns to the next highest payer, using their results from previous negotiations as their leverage into other jobs.
So what must the JPA and the Jet* pilot's do?
First off, forget the idea that you can match the S Ass's; you are professional pilots, they are professional negotiators, trained in the psychology of negotiating and getting the upper hand over employees.
Next , vote down the EBA 100%.
Next, get professional industrial lawyers to assist .
Some posts have suggested the Jet* pilot's join AIPA; WHY NOT???
The IRC has given AIPA the right to industrial coverage of all Qantas Group pilots.
Obviously by doing that, the IRC recognised the benefit that could be gained to Qantas Group pilots by having a single professioal organisation represent them.
Those 2 pilots that flew into Syd........... does it matter that one may have been involved in an industrial dispute almost 20 yrs ago or the other is the son/daughter of a pilot who was.........the answer should be , NO!!!!!!!!
They did a professional job and had mutual respect for each others experience and skills.
It is high time that we get on with our jobs, and those older of us, that have gained so much from this wonderful industry, do our utmost to support, nurture and ensure that those that follow us have a liveable and comfortable future.
IT IS SURELY TIME, THAT QANTAS GROUP PILOTS COME TOGETHER FOR THE COMMON GOOD.
Role on......
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Theres a big difference between being positive and being down right off with the fairies.
Once you jump the 3-400 pilots in front of you vying for 787 glory ( no mean feat with a fleet of 15 requiring 110 skippers ) enjoy the dubious honour of being one of the lowest paid L/H wide body skippers in the developed world.
Oh, and good luck with the yacht and supporting a wife and kids whilst living on the east coast on around 11k net per month.( in 7 years )
Hope you like rowing...................
Once you jump the 3-400 pilots in front of you vying for 787 glory ( no mean feat with a fleet of 15 requiring 110 skippers ) enjoy the dubious honour of being one of the lowest paid L/H wide body skippers in the developed world.
Oh, and good luck with the yacht and supporting a wife and kids whilst living on the east coast on around 11k net per month.( in 7 years )
Hope you like rowing...................
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Oh we are a bunch of smug little munchkins aren't we?
Big jets go a long way, then have to come back. Get over it. The world is full of long range operations and they don't all have the blessing of the Sacred Rat to help.
And here's a newsflash.....well over 98% of the world's jet pilots don't work for Qantas, never tried, and don't want to. As for me, the idea of joining the world's biggest flying museum has some attractions but I think I like the 777 better. And it's nowhere near as ugly as the old whale or the new one. Maybe I'll think about it later. Qantas fly ancient aircraft, with ancient FAs and ancient attitudes........would they take an ancient pilot? I am very very expert (for a non-Rat Driver) on long range routes, even up in the Arctic where Rats are few. Actually maybe there's none. Never been down there on the ice. So I could be wrong. Sorry....see, you can tell I'm not a Rat Driver, as I a) admitted I might be wrong and b) apologized.
Big jets go a long way, then have to come back. Get over it. The world is full of long range operations and they don't all have the blessing of the Sacred Rat to help.
And here's a newsflash.....well over 98% of the world's jet pilots don't work for Qantas, never tried, and don't want to. As for me, the idea of joining the world's biggest flying museum has some attractions but I think I like the 777 better. And it's nowhere near as ugly as the old whale or the new one. Maybe I'll think about it later. Qantas fly ancient aircraft, with ancient FAs and ancient attitudes........would they take an ancient pilot? I am very very expert (for a non-Rat Driver) on long range routes, even up in the Arctic where Rats are few. Actually maybe there's none. Never been down there on the ice. So I could be wrong. Sorry....see, you can tell I'm not a Rat Driver, as I a) admitted I might be wrong and b) apologized.
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Nurse quick, the Haloperidol. The men in the white coats won't be long.
genex,
Fair enough, but the aircraft an airline operates doesn't really factor into it much for me, as long as it's got at least two shiny jet engines on the wings and made by Airbus or Boeing. What does matter is the conditions under which I'm employed, and the lifestyle that allows me to live. Frankly the JQ agreement doesn't offer a viable long term career path IMHO.
Now your location says "Australia" but you talk about flying over the Arctic? CX perhaps? Commuter? Good luck to you then, but not my cup of tea. Spending any more time on an aeroplane than I absolutely have to doesn't sound like much fun.
Anyway, back to watching the cricket and the storms roll in after a top day at the beach. Enjoy your arctic crossings.
TL
I think I like the 777 better
Now your location says "Australia" but you talk about flying over the Arctic? CX perhaps? Commuter? Good luck to you then, but not my cup of tea. Spending any more time on an aeroplane than I absolutely have to doesn't sound like much fun.
Anyway, back to watching the cricket and the storms roll in after a top day at the beach. Enjoy your arctic crossings.
TL
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The funniest thing about this "thread" (for lack of a better description - "twaddle" seems more apt), is that no-one, with the exception of a couple of alleged Jetstar pilots, even knows what the offer is.
Yet you all once again feel the need to rabbit-on, ad-nauseum and in the most negative of terms, about issues that are both completely beyond your control and with regard to the specifics, utterly none of your business.
You all espouse unity but once again feel no remorse in filleting a group of pilots who HAVEN'T EVEN MADE A DECISION YET!
May I suggest you all switch off the ego, anger and "woe is me" agenda-riddled drivel spraying from your keyboards and take the time to make a phone call to one of your friends at Jetstar (don't be embarassed - we know you have them). You might be surprised at what you're told about the agreement.
Yet you all once again feel the need to rabbit-on, ad-nauseum and in the most negative of terms, about issues that are both completely beyond your control and with regard to the specifics, utterly none of your business.
You all espouse unity but once again feel no remorse in filleting a group of pilots who HAVEN'T EVEN MADE A DECISION YET!
May I suggest you all switch off the ego, anger and "woe is me" agenda-riddled drivel spraying from your keyboards and take the time to make a phone call to one of your friends at Jetstar (don't be embarassed - we know you have them). You might be surprised at what you're told about the agreement.
Last edited by flyingins; 16th Jan 2008 at 09:54.
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The original title of this thread was that JQ was to sellout new hires. If this EBA gets up then all new hires will be covered by the EBA and not AWA's. That is not a bad outcome. All this done without the experts from AIPA ,who I seem to recall, managed to negotiate a LH EBA where new hires were able to be based in Singapore while the incumbents were given a 3% payrise.
Fltingins:
If my fellow Pilot's are accepting different terms and conditions to do the same job then IT CERTAINLY IS MY BUSINESS.
Yet you all once again feel the need to rabbit-on, ad-nauseum and in the most negative of terms, about issues that are both completely beyond your control and utterly none of your business.
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Well then ACMS, get on the phone and find out the truth.
P.S - Have you had a look at what CX is offering their Australian-based FO's lately? Surely that's more pertinent to your affairs?
P.S - Have you had a look at what CX is offering their Australian-based FO's lately? Surely that's more pertinent to your affairs?