JQ EBA to sell out new hires
100% true my friend, I'm in HK.
However what the Australian Airlines offer their Pilot's effects me as well.
I don't know what the JQ Pilot's have been offerered. All I'm saying is that it is the business ( when you said it's non of your business )of all Aussie Pilot's what another Airline does or doesn't pay.
p.s. The current CX salary for direct entry F/Os ( $92,000 AUD ) is a stupid joke. Why anyone with Jet time would want to join is beyond me.
However what the Australian Airlines offer their Pilot's effects me as well.
I don't know what the JQ Pilot's have been offerered. All I'm saying is that it is the business ( when you said it's non of your business )of all Aussie Pilot's what another Airline does or doesn't pay.
p.s. The current CX salary for direct entry F/Os ( $92,000 AUD ) is a stupid joke. Why anyone with Jet time would want to join is beyond me.
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permFO
You are correct in saying that the last LH EBA negotiated by AIPA did in deed put in place, amongst other things, a Singapore basing for second officers which had putrid conditions attached to it. What you then fail to go on and say is that the committee and executive responsible for endorsing such an act were unceremoniously thrown out of office within days and replaced with the current AIPA team. The new team had attempted to stop that EBA being voted and have spent the last 2 years attempting to mop up the mess left by their predecessors. You might also note that no second officer has ever been sent to Singapore on a basing under EBA 7conditions. LH EBA 8 is being negotiated at the present time and a very strong rumour is that the Singapore basing provisions will disappear altogether.
On another note the general thrust of the JQ EBA offer is known and considering the current, and growing, shortage of pilots, change of Government with ensuing changes to industrial laws, Qantas shares nose-diving and a senior management team that will have to eventually front the market and shareholders with explanations, legal actions for price-fixing including class actions, industrial problems from unions seeking reasonable conditions in the face of a management team that seems to care nothing about wastage and lost opportunities it would appear now is the perfect time for pilots that are behind the eight ball on terms and conditions to put their hands up and say enough is enough. The JQ offer is way below what could be achieved with a bit of solidarity and careful negotiating.
Keep in mind that what is being offered is a non-union collective agreement. This will lock out union representation for any JQ pilot for the 5 years of the EBA at least. Whilst the JPA has good intentions they are not a registered body and thus any dispute arising under the EBA, if voted up, will end up being JQ vs Individual Pilot. The significance of this is that the individual will lack the protection of a collective organization representing them (might be a very costly exercise for an individual in any dispute). Now is the time for JPA to get together with AIPA and delay a vote until a much more honest deal is put on the table for JQ pilots.
Your point about all new hires being employed under the EBA and not AWAs is a perfect example of the mis-information that is being given to JQ pilots. As of the second week in February the new Labor transitional Industrial Relations Bill will take effect which prevents any further AWAs coming into existence so with or without a vote there will be no new AWAs! My point being that rushing into this vote will end in disaster for JQ pilots and they should en-masse be saying to the JPA and JQ management that we want it put on hold until we have more information on which to commit 5 years of our lives. There is absolutely no hurry to commit to a vote.
You are correct in saying that the last LH EBA negotiated by AIPA did in deed put in place, amongst other things, a Singapore basing for second officers which had putrid conditions attached to it. What you then fail to go on and say is that the committee and executive responsible for endorsing such an act were unceremoniously thrown out of office within days and replaced with the current AIPA team. The new team had attempted to stop that EBA being voted and have spent the last 2 years attempting to mop up the mess left by their predecessors. You might also note that no second officer has ever been sent to Singapore on a basing under EBA 7conditions. LH EBA 8 is being negotiated at the present time and a very strong rumour is that the Singapore basing provisions will disappear altogether.
On another note the general thrust of the JQ EBA offer is known and considering the current, and growing, shortage of pilots, change of Government with ensuing changes to industrial laws, Qantas shares nose-diving and a senior management team that will have to eventually front the market and shareholders with explanations, legal actions for price-fixing including class actions, industrial problems from unions seeking reasonable conditions in the face of a management team that seems to care nothing about wastage and lost opportunities it would appear now is the perfect time for pilots that are behind the eight ball on terms and conditions to put their hands up and say enough is enough. The JQ offer is way below what could be achieved with a bit of solidarity and careful negotiating.
Keep in mind that what is being offered is a non-union collective agreement. This will lock out union representation for any JQ pilot for the 5 years of the EBA at least. Whilst the JPA has good intentions they are not a registered body and thus any dispute arising under the EBA, if voted up, will end up being JQ vs Individual Pilot. The significance of this is that the individual will lack the protection of a collective organization representing them (might be a very costly exercise for an individual in any dispute). Now is the time for JPA to get together with AIPA and delay a vote until a much more honest deal is put on the table for JQ pilots.
Your point about all new hires being employed under the EBA and not AWAs is a perfect example of the mis-information that is being given to JQ pilots. As of the second week in February the new Labor transitional Industrial Relations Bill will take effect which prevents any further AWAs coming into existence so with or without a vote there will be no new AWAs! My point being that rushing into this vote will end in disaster for JQ pilots and they should en-masse be saying to the JPA and JQ management that we want it put on hold until we have more information on which to commit 5 years of our lives. There is absolutely no hurry to commit to a vote.
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Doing a search on permFO previous posts, it would appear that he once flew for Qantas and is now flying with Jetstar. permFO now seems to be very anti Qantas/AIPA when AIPA re trying to lift conditions. Why?
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inconsistency
Just Relaxin might try and explain how come the same constituents that voted the ARG into office also voted YES to that EBA7.Too many are being blinded by accurately calculated ambiguity and this will continue until the members of AIPA start asking for and getting the truth, without being distracted by fillibuster and half-statements that confuse the AIPA COM.
Could it be that most were honourable enough to recognise that a deal had been negotiated?
Could it be that the infamous MOU might have been a done deal too, except the moustached leaders of ARG chose to fiddle and meddle with it and that is why it must now go to court?
What happened with the ARG in 2005 was a bit like a carload of pilots at the end of a long hot drive and gagging for a beer. They hit town and immediately picked a fight with GD who happened to be the owner and operator of the only hotel and grog shop in the town. It is now 2008 and the guys still have no beer because the ARG were out of control and lacking enough smarts.
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Just Relaxin, I don't know why you would state that a union would be locked out for the next five years. It is a fact that the AFAP is a party to the current EBA at JQ, and that both the current and proposed EBA provide for Union representation for any pilot that requests it or has an issue.
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FF- It demonstrates that AIPA is on the outside looking in when it comes to J* conditions.
DM- Your deductive reasoning is brilliant and I think you should change your handle to NS Sherlock! You ask why? When the current head of AIPA goes to the Senate and suggests that J* pilots are not capable of flying LH ops and that their pilots are trained to a lesser standard during their Command upgrade then I doubt his sincerity when offering a glossy olive branch.
I have no doubt that at the first opportunity AIPA and its membership would happily shaft J* pilots if they could gain unfettered access to the cockpits of J* aircraft. As I have said before, when mainline pilots actually have the courtesy to return a greeting as they pass you in the concourse, then I will believe that they are fair dinkum in wanting J* pilots to be equal partners in a single pilot union.
DM- Your deductive reasoning is brilliant and I think you should change your handle to NS Sherlock! You ask why? When the current head of AIPA goes to the Senate and suggests that J* pilots are not capable of flying LH ops and that their pilots are trained to a lesser standard during their Command upgrade then I doubt his sincerity when offering a glossy olive branch.
I have no doubt that at the first opportunity AIPA and its membership would happily shaft J* pilots if they could gain unfettered access to the cockpits of J* aircraft. As I have said before, when mainline pilots actually have the courtesy to return a greeting as they pass you in the concourse, then I will believe that they are fair dinkum in wanting J* pilots to be equal partners in a single pilot union.
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fistfokker and permFO
You should both try and check your facts before posting wrong information on this topic. The Jetstar Airways Pilots Agreement 2005 as amended in 2006 is definitely a non-union agreement. Sadly it is a fact that neither the AFAP nor AIPA are a party to it. AFAP was a party to the previous 2001 agreement. If you would like to check the veracity of this you can look up the 2005 agreement on the AIRC website and search for Agreement ID: AG 843278. You will clearly see in the 2005 agreement that the only parties as signatories are Jetstar Airways Pty Ltd and the Jetstar Pilot Council.
As I said before misinformation and incorrect statements about this issue are rife and should indicate to all the Jetstar pilots that they should hold off voting until a much clearer and more honest picture is presented to them.
You should both try and check your facts before posting wrong information on this topic. The Jetstar Airways Pilots Agreement 2005 as amended in 2006 is definitely a non-union agreement. Sadly it is a fact that neither the AFAP nor AIPA are a party to it. AFAP was a party to the previous 2001 agreement. If you would like to check the veracity of this you can look up the 2005 agreement on the AIRC website and search for Agreement ID: AG 843278. You will clearly see in the 2005 agreement that the only parties as signatories are Jetstar Airways Pty Ltd and the Jetstar Pilot Council.
As I said before misinformation and incorrect statements about this issue are rife and should indicate to all the Jetstar pilots that they should hold off voting until a much clearer and more honest picture is presented to them.
Looks like BA pilots are about to take a firm stand with "Open Skies". A major impetus for this is that we have seen what has happened with Jetstar/Qantas.
If Qantas and Jetstar (and the regionals for that matter) do manage to get one union (AIPA) negotiating their agreements, and one seniority list I think that would go a long way to recovering the situation.
It would mean a sacrifice for many mainline pilots though. An 11 year mainline FO being forced to let a 12 year Dash capt take a 767 command. Would you be willing to do this to help bring T&Cs closer together for all?
If Qantas and Jetstar (and the regionals for that matter) do manage to get one union (AIPA) negotiating their agreements, and one seniority list I think that would go a long way to recovering the situation.
It would mean a sacrifice for many mainline pilots though. An 11 year mainline FO being forced to let a 12 year Dash capt take a 767 command. Would you be willing to do this to help bring T&Cs closer together for all?
Perm FO said
This is a fact. 3 Sims plus line sectors for Jet* Command upgrade does not equal the training given to your Mainline Peers
Aren't you Jet* guys sick of being short changed by Joyce and Co when it comes to your professional improvement?
There are a couple of impatient ex Ansett Pilots who have only recently resigned from QF Mainline in order to obtain Jet* Commands. How inconvenient for them now if the status quo gets upset and AIPA/Jetstar pilots put their mutual distrust of each other behind them to work for the common good!
suggests that J* pilots are trained to a lesser standard during their Command upgrade
Aren't you Jet* guys sick of being short changed by Joyce and Co when it comes to your professional improvement?
There are a couple of impatient ex Ansett Pilots who have only recently resigned from QF Mainline in order to obtain Jet* Commands. How inconvenient for them now if the status quo gets upset and AIPA/Jetstar pilots put their mutual distrust of each other behind them to work for the common good!
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JR- AllI know is that the AFAP had input into the EBA proposal and they have stated in a newsletter that they have repondency to our current EBA.
Capt Dungduster- You are wrong and would you enlighten us as to what a QF 737 F/O gets when he/she moves to the LHS of the same aircraft type. That was where AIPA got it wrong when they suggested to the Senate that J* pilots were given less training. For the record J* Command trainees get a Command school 4 sims, line training, a progress sim check, further line training then a 2 day line check. If QF get anything different for a seat swap I will be happy to stand corrected.
Capt Dungduster- You are wrong and would you enlighten us as to what a QF 737 F/O gets when he/she moves to the LHS of the same aircraft type. That was where AIPA got it wrong when they suggested to the Senate that J* pilots were given less training. For the record J* Command trainees get a Command school 4 sims, line training, a progress sim check, further line training then a 2 day line check. If QF get anything different for a seat swap I will be happy to stand corrected.
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PermFO,
Good thing you are happy to stand corrected, a seat change command is still CONSIDERABLY more that you describe...
Also you should stand corrected on this as well:
I make a point of trying to catch the eye of J* pilots as I walk by in order to nod hello, however, they all seem to have something of great interest happening on the tips of their shoes.
I was even in a lift with one, and when I said G'day I got no response, I thought, its OK he probably thought I was talking to someone else, although then I realised there was only two of us in there.
Good thing you are happy to stand corrected, a seat change command is still CONSIDERABLY more that you describe...
Also you should stand corrected on this as well:
when mainline pilots actually have the courtesy to return a greeting as they pass you in the concourse
I was even in a lift with one, and when I said G'day I got no response, I thought, its OK he probably thought I was talking to someone else, although then I realised there was only two of us in there.
Nunc est bibendum
Apples with apples
QF 737 Command Promotion- already endorsed on type.
Four days of ground School- various bits and pieces. EPs, security, company stuff, etc.
COM1- COM9- total of 9.
Sectors: 20 Training, 6 pre final command check (different rules to normal training) and then 6 for the final command check. Total 32.
Ostensibly it's 7 weeks all up but I reckon you're pushing to get nine sims done in the two weeks they say it takes.
My experience of J* crew in the terminal is the same as speedy's. Very hard to catch their eye let alone have a chat.
I'd certainly welcome the opportunity to get to know each other a bit better. I apologise in advance for the few prats that we have just as I know that some J* people will be less than impressed with some of the actions of their colleagues too.
Four days of ground School- various bits and pieces. EPs, security, company stuff, etc.
COM1- COM9- total of 9.
Sectors: 20 Training, 6 pre final command check (different rules to normal training) and then 6 for the final command check. Total 32.
Ostensibly it's 7 weeks all up but I reckon you're pushing to get nine sims done in the two weeks they say it takes.
My experience of J* crew in the terminal is the same as speedy's. Very hard to catch their eye let alone have a chat.
I'd certainly welcome the opportunity to get to know each other a bit better. I apologise in advance for the few prats that we have just as I know that some J* people will be less than impressed with some of the actions of their colleagues too.
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PermFo, I was flying with one of your ex AN colleagues recently who related a story to me. He has a mate (ex QF SO) who is now an FO on the A330 (Jetstar) and flying to Asia as PF, he asked the captain to put in Bali on the fix page. The captains response, "Why?" The FO then said for situational awareness. The captain then asked how do you do it. The FO said put the ICAO designator in on the fix page. The captains response - "What's an ICAO designator?"
Seems the training may well be lacking.
I've also had the experience of totally being ignored by Jetstar pilots even though I've said hello to them.
Seems the training may well be lacking.
I've also had the experience of totally being ignored by Jetstar pilots even though I've said hello to them.
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I think there was a feeling of us vs them going on at JQ, for what reason i'm not sure, maybe it's all the slandering we cop on pprune or its our "great" leader telling us not to be polluted by the QF culture as they are "yesterdays" pilots..
However, I think now after seeing this disgusting new EBA some/most of us have had a gutful of Joyce and his threats and are desperate to get AIPA involved and join forces with the QF pilot group to stregthen our postition.
With regard to JQ pilots not acknowledging some of you guys, i believe this mainly due to the fact that a lot of JQ pilots were called scabs by QF drivers when the (crappy) wide body eba went through, and i have seen some friendships dissapear because of this...sad indeed I say...
Lets hope the future holds us all pulling in the same direction and seeing each other as professional pilots, not the enemy as Joyce/Dixon would like!!
However, I think now after seeing this disgusting new EBA some/most of us have had a gutful of Joyce and his threats and are desperate to get AIPA involved and join forces with the QF pilot group to stregthen our postition.
With regard to JQ pilots not acknowledging some of you guys, i believe this mainly due to the fact that a lot of JQ pilots were called scabs by QF drivers when the (crappy) wide body eba went through, and i have seen some friendships dissapear because of this...sad indeed I say...
Lets hope the future holds us all pulling in the same direction and seeing each other as professional pilots, not the enemy as Joyce/Dixon would like!!
Perm FO said
When people start using insulting language one generally knows ones touched a sore point
A cursory check of Perm FO's previous posts confirmed my suspicions of his background and his inherit bias.
This post shows his Ansett past and then this post shows his QF past.
It is in your own self interest in your quest for a quick command you want AIPA/Jet* to continue their distrust of one another.
Well, you made your choice to resign from Mainline - looks like your gamble is going to fail.
We here in Mainline are determined to put the past behind us and embrace our Jet* colleagues to improve their T and C in order to improve ours.
Capt Dungduster- You are wrong
A cursory check of Perm FO's previous posts confirmed my suspicions of his background and his inherit bias.
This post shows his Ansett past and then this post shows his QF past.
It is in your own self interest in your quest for a quick command you want AIPA/Jet* to continue their distrust of one another.
Well, you made your choice to resign from Mainline - looks like your gamble is going to fail.
We here in Mainline are determined to put the past behind us and embrace our Jet* colleagues to improve their T and C in order to improve ours.
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Oh Clodbuster, how generous! And without a thought that your AIPA mates would take all the JQ commands....never crossed your mind. Doesn't affect me except that hypocrisy annoys me. And also that if AIPA get coverage and handle T & C for JQ I'll sell my Qantas shares and replace them with Virgin and Tiger shares as they'll be the only beneficiaries.
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Kevin Rudd was attending a convention in Kalgoorlie, Western Australia and decided to check out the local brothels. When he got to the first one he asked the Madam, "Is this a union house?" "No," she replied, "I'm sorry it isn't." "Well, if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?" "The house gets $80 and the girls get $20," she answered.
Offended at such unfair dealings, Kevin Rudd stomped off down the street in search of a more equitable, hopefully unionised shop.
His search continued until finally he reached a brothel where the Madam responded, "Why yes sir, this is a union house. We observe all union rules." Kevin Rudd asked, "And if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?" "The girls get $80 and the house gets $20." "That's more like it!" Kevin Rudd said.
He handed the Madam $100, looked around the room, and pointed to a stunningly attractive blonde. "I'd like her," he said. "I'm sure you would, sir," said the Madam. Then she gestured to a 92-year old woman in the corner, "but Ethel here has 67 years seniority and according to union rules, she's next."
Offended at such unfair dealings, Kevin Rudd stomped off down the street in search of a more equitable, hopefully unionised shop.
His search continued until finally he reached a brothel where the Madam responded, "Why yes sir, this is a union house. We observe all union rules." Kevin Rudd asked, "And if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?" "The girls get $80 and the house gets $20." "That's more like it!" Kevin Rudd said.
He handed the Madam $100, looked around the room, and pointed to a stunningly attractive blonde. "I'd like her," he said. "I'm sure you would, sir," said the Madam. Then she gestured to a 92-year old woman in the corner, "but Ethel here has 67 years seniority and according to union rules, she's next."
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Sherm, you have no idea how the Group opportunity list would work. J* commands would go to all J* pilots first then whoever had the highest DOJ in the Qantas group. If that is a Q400 Captain, so be it.
Qantaslink commands would go the same way.
So would mainline commands. Everyone gets first divs on their own branch of the "w" then it goes to group seniority next.
No current J* pilot would lose out their J* command to anyone else.
Why don't you check your facts before spouting such rubbish?
Qantaslink commands would go the same way.
So would mainline commands. Everyone gets first divs on their own branch of the "w" then it goes to group seniority next.
No current J* pilot would lose out their J* command to anyone else.
Why don't you check your facts before spouting such rubbish?