HyperMerged: Q Engineering LAME EBA VIII/Industrial Strategies

[chemical alli]

voting slips out tommorrow guys ,just remember to return them .

[The Mr Fixit]

Qantas paid for JHAS training - true

Qantas Engineering had to 'tender' for what is essentially it's own work - true

Peter Gregg sits on both Leighton's and Qantas' board - true

JHAS was not added as a 'bidder' until the 11th hour after all others had pulled out - true

Engineers had to 'apply' to become licenced on A380 - true

Does this not represent a treacherous attempt to destabilise the union or what ?

Paid for a competitor, tender to your own companies, interesting bedfellows, more interesting bidding process (ooooh to be a fly on the wall) and F#%k merit, base you choice on a$$kissing

Are you guys asleep out there ? this is our waterloo, you wanna be Napolean or Wellington ?

Get your ballot and signal your intentions, we have been denied long enough and it is time we stood up.

[whatdouknow]

Yes everyone, stand up and be counted. Get your ballot and get on it!

[acslame]

anyone got there ballot form yet?

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by tmf

Qantas paid for JHAS training - true

True

Originally Posted by tmf

Qantas Engineering had to 'tender' for what is essentially it's own work - true

Why is it their own work?

That is PRECISELY the attitude that leads to inefficiency which creates opportunities for outsourcers - true.

With all the advantages of incumbency why did they not automatically get the work and why have we been able to make such a strong tilt for it?

Originally Posted by tmf

Peter Gregg sits on both Leighton's and Qantas' board - true

True.

Originally Posted by tmf

JHAS was not added as a 'bidder' until the 11th hour after all others had pulled out - true

Untrue. We initially went in with SIAEC from the start and both parties were asked to submit individual bids as well. We got through, others didn't.

Originally Posted by tmf

Engineers had to 'apply' to become licenced on A380 - true

Again, what of it? Would you prefer/accept a system where you simply got told what to do?

Originally Posted by tmf

Does this not represent a treacherous attempt to destabilise the union or what ?

Nope.

Draw all the threads together you like and present a conspiracy theory of an X-File proportion but the union is probably the last thing on QF's mind. Gaining advantage from drawing on the knowledge of a highly competitive engineering organisation is something else again.

Let's be clear here. We are presenting a different way of doing things that may be adjudged as being more efficient.

If we can show that we should (rightfully) win the work. If we can't we shouldn't.

Simple really.

[Clipped]

Without degrading the attributes of your organisation Romulus.

Please look at it from the perspective of a QE employee. QE has the facilities, capability, personnel etc etc to service the current and future fleet (or it certainly did a couple of years ago). Those capabilities have diminished simply because management want to rein in their legacy workforce.

So please allow us to be a little skeptical of this circus.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by clipped

Without degrading the attributes of your organisation Romulus.

Please look at it from the perspective of a QE employee. QE has the facilities, capability, personnel etc etc to service the current and future fleet (or it certainly did a couple of years ago). Those capabilities have diminished simply because management want to rein in their legacy workforce.

So please allow us to be a little skeptical of this circus.

Fair enough.

Bear in mind that QF Eng are playing in an entirely new space against companies (not just us) who view enginering as an honourable profession and make it their entire living.

We can build nuclear reactors, we can build sturctures that do amazing things. Now we have bought a whole lot of aviation engineering expertise. Marry the two together and QF Eng have a strong competitor on their own turf for the first time.

there is no question QF Eng is a very good aviation engineering organisation - question is can they deliver the commercial requirements of the modern day airline?

And no, this does not allow a compromise on safety.

[600ft-lb]

Why is it their own work?

That is PRECISELY the attitude that leads to inefficiency which creates opportunities for outsourcers - true.

With all the advantages of incumbency why did they not automatically get the work and why have we been able to make such a strong tilt for it?

Why is it their own work ? Why even have "Qantas Engineering" if you stifle your own companies ready made, currently employed workforce with all of the infrastructure in place to make it happen.

The whole fascicle "bidding process" involved with the A380 maintenance is a workforce union busting exercise and thats it. The staff are being punished with the ever present axe over their heads if they don't accept a very, very substandard EBA the A380 maintenance contract is the final wedge that will break QE's LAME staff, should all go to plan.

Could you ever imagine the likes of Singapore Airlines tendering out their own airlines 'work' to 3rd party operators ? The airline, that Qantas incidentally helped to set up its engineering operations, isn't out there looking for the lowest bidder, they actually made their engineering department capable of bidding for 3rd party work at competitive prices. What has QF management done ??? S.F.A. ..

Notice all of the redundancies lately, how many LAME's have left, how much training has been done to take up the slack of the experience which has left the company. This whole process really is a steaming load of crap. Qantas has allowed its engineering workforce to become a mere skeleton of what it once was, the company has agreed to the past EBA's, kept the companies 'policy' of 3% pay rises, been happy with the processes of keeping EBA's, yet its staff are just not competitive enough.

Its not the staff who aren't flexible, uncompetitive, highly paid or (lowest in the industry actually, compare 1 license lame level 3 $1030 a week to virgin 90k/year) or lazy. Management really have not even tried to get out there and chase the extra work (there has been a systemic process of dumping all 3rd party work over the last 4 years), plan the work loads to match the work force (2 transits per 8 hour shift.....).

Is it really the fault of the LAME's at Qantas ? Qantas has no doubt formed a focus group that has recommended a committee be formed that undertake a tendering process to find out if the amazing people that have swindled countless dollars from Qantas books to make their senior managers feel better are throwing stuffed toys at each other have carried out a risk assesment of the eyes stitched to the teddy bears.

Qantas engineering started to go down hill when the current managements direction changed from fixing planes in an efficient manner, to going to kamp krusty, throwing toys, meaningless safety observations, mountains of paperwork if someone stubs a toe, having facilitators to facilitate facilitation, spending millions on a consultancy groups tragedy map that still doesn't make sense in its revised format the list goes on.

Really it is time to get out of this sinking ship, the best thing the LAME's can do is to go on strike and go down fighting, and preferably bring down the current managers with them who have destroyed Etoms(another costly mistake), whoops, I meant QE otherwise you will all be out of a job in the next 5 - 10 years when the new aircraft are all here and Qantas engineering, though no fault of the engineers funnily enough, just wasn't competitive enough to win the tender for the work.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I wish I could write my notices that well.

[All Trades]

Only one financial statement

With all these seperate buisness units all bidding for their own work and then charging each other for each others services seems to me to be nothing more than a cost in administration. After all in the final wash up at the end of the financial year there is only one profit statement to the genaral public, and that is how much Qantas airways made, (improved on last years record profit).
ROM if you guys are successfull with your bid I wish you nothing but luck, a great balance sheet (which will do nothing more than impact on another QA record profit) and a successfull future in aviation.
Rant mode on
I am sick to death of telling our managers from DMM's up, that we are fed up with their rants about the business and the new business model, the business this, the business that, the business, the business, the way forward, a sustainable future, the latest stradegy map, the bridge of trust, the three pillars,inteligent space,amazing people, and on and on.
When will they ever get it into their heads that we are not interested in all the feel good management speak and week ends up the creek having group hugs, all we want to do is fix aeroplanes to the best of our ability with the minimum of fuss for fair remuneration and not have to deal with their business c#@p. After all we are Lames, not managers, and those of us that have chosen to no longer be Lames and think a secondment is a managers position, go back to work and stop taking your penalties under false pretences.
Rant mode off.
One more for ROM, It looks like you are in the box seat for the 380 if the ASN continues along the lines of stifling QE in their bid for the 380 work, good luck for the future and be sure to read your contract carefully
AT

[NAS1801]

Why is it their own work?

That is PRECISELY the attitude that leads to inefficiency which creates opportunities for outsourcers - true.

Romulus.... I have always thought that you were reasonable with your posts. I'm a bit disapointed with the above one though.

Qantas Engineering has a wealth of experience on the Qantas fleet. Most of our engineers know our aircraft types intimately. A 747 is not a 747 is not a 747. Each operator has their own differences in configurations, systems and most importantly, procedures and documentation. It makes sense to award the work to the most experienced work force. Unfortunately, this workforce has been constantly threatened and systematically demoraised over the last 5 or so years.

The inefficiencies to which you elude, have been introduced intentionally by QF management. Lack of spares, lack of manpower, lack of tooling, changes to procedures, an often ridiculous approach to OH&S, The blatant lack of initiative to tender for third party work.

And to make matters worse, we have effectively been forced backwards with our wages over the last 10 years. Anyone would think SARS, September 11 and Fuel prices are the fault of engineers, pilots, hosties etc as we are the ones that have been told to take wage freezes and then no more than 3%P/A. Of course, Senior managers were not to blame for SARS, 9/11, fuel$.... they are the victims!

I wish I could write my notices that well.

But you do Steve. Nice powerpoint presentation. Thanks for returning my email this evening. You definately have our support. ;-)

[whatdouknow]

Support... get the word out, we need everyone on board.

Rally the troops

[rudderless1]

Who will win?

Sadly Qf Engineers even hope John Holland will win due to the filth that now runs QF Engineering.

Goodluck Romulus.It seems fate'au complait you will get it!

Realistically in any well managed business, with QF Engineerings background, knowledge, experience and relationship to the company (and cost) you should never have been able to compete but alas due to sheer incompetence and mismanagement it will go.

Just like the sale, there are self serving reasons for it. I am sure you will see prominent names associated with all new contracted businesses. John Holland and Aviation Australia for starters.

I'm glad little Johnny and his crony club is over!

[Short_Circuit]

Time to become accountable

I have heard from the 2 day love fest by some 150 QF MACS & DMM’s it was a kick up the bum for them by QF Marketing. They were told they have failed to present a quality product to their Customer, Marketing, and that they had better to pick up their game or pay the consequences.

The rest of the 2 days was spent trying to work out what had gone wrong! The result is that the Engineers are not being held accountable!!! They do not care about detail (quality) of workmanship or have pride in their work. They need to conform to the 4 pillars concept of management. They need to identify problems and take ownership of it.
They need to have heart!

Well, excuu-uu-se me, is that not what we have been telling management for decades, only to see them duck and weave, cut corners and reduce spending on the very things that would prevent the slide in the first place just so that they get a big FAT bonus. What a hide management have in placing the blame back to the boys on the floor. The very boys that have been banging their heads against a brick wall for years, wearing the job cuts, stress and lack of remuneration.

Lean sigmas, cutting jobs & license numbers to the bone have only reduced the opportunity to produce a quality product that engineers would be proud to produce. Management will now spend Millions again to sidestep the fact that without skilled manpower & sufficient licenses, it will not turn around.

How the hell do they think we can do the work we need to do without manpower, resources and a pat on the back from time to time, (and a lunch break every day).

Well I think the tide is starting to turn and the rejection of the latest EBA will help those, who can help get things going again, see where the problem lies. I am sick of hearing that we have to work harder & smarter time and time again whenever management get a boot up the rear.

Time for management to be accountable.

[Short_Circuit]

My Vote Is In

he says with a grin


for action

[acslame]

I just love it when management hide behind the " You don't understand the business" statement
Well here is what I know
Our aircraft , I know how they work, how they are operated, who operates them , where they go, where they are maintained , who maintains
them (until recently). what gets done to them in the hangar, where the support shops are , who is in them , what they do there , how long it takes to do a job,Where stores are now (and used to be), the lack of spares , Eoc
and the disaster that fell on it under M's control, The disaster that fell on
syd heavy. OH&S joke , lack of licenses , ame's leaving , aging aircraft,
computers that don't work , people hiding in facillitators jobs, AND A WHOLE LOT MORE
So don't tell me I don't know the f**king business

Its management that doesn't know the business.
All they can do is blame the staff and the unions for there own lack
of understanding and vision. They make promises that they have no idea
how to deliver on, and then they try to "engage to workforce" because they have no idea what they are doing
Christ, what hope have you got when the manager of SIT(sio or whatever they are now) doesn't understand why there are 2 clocks there showing different times!!!!!

The truely sad part is that as QE employees we have told them time and time what is wrong and, more so how to fix it. And save money by doing so!

They talk of the culture in engineering , well thats rich coming from management who has a culture of never ever listening to your staff, never
admit you are wrong, never reverse a decision they made that isn't working. Any meeting with staff is just tokenism!
There is more intelligent space in the smoke room than in a meeting
with QF management. In fact , if I hear any more rhetoric from these
fools I think I will scream.
What is the latest, a safety contact? Spare me please.

Here is a news flash
I am doing my job! Time our managers do there's.
QF management are inefficant, out of touch and ineffective.
They care more about LTI's than production issues.

And then there are the lies.
How can you even talk of crossing the bridge of trust when all qf
management do is tell us blatant lies .
I cannot believe that they will sit there and lie to our faces when they
know full well that we know otherwise.
They must think we are truly stupid.
How do you respect someone who can't even tell you the truth?

Now its EBA time and the usual threats are happening.
We'll, send the 330 offshore! Just do it and shut the f**k up!
I am sure the Bne heavy boys are sick of management holding it over them!
We will give JH the 380 (and good luck to them as well), let them have it I say.
We need to be able to compete with MRO's. Yeah , never happen with you
clowns running the show.
Cut costs so we can keep / get the jetstar contract. Whatever! they are just
piggybacking of the parent company anyhow.
blah blah blah and so and so forth.

Well you know what. I am so sick of being blamed for the inabillities of
this current crop of managers.
Its not about the money, Its about QF staff getting screwed so petty
little managers can get there bonus's off the the backs of the people who
know the business and are getting there job done in spite of management

SP ,I am with you all the way
I am voting to take industrial action in an attempt to save my job,
because if these dickheads in management keep going as they are
sure as **** we will meet with the same fate as syd heavy.
Its time we took a real hard look at what is going on around us
and act accordingly .

Next time I might tell you what I really think!!!!!!!!!!!

[whatdouknow]

Boom Boom, good stuff.

I agree... wholeheartedly.

[Romulus]

Wow, plenty of feeling in here today.

So as a simple summary - thanks for the support, under what would be wierd circumstances for most.

And that's the key point of me posting here, I don't believe it's that hard to win the hearts and minds of people by being open and honest regardless of whether or not people want to hear the message. Doesn't mean we'll be lifelong friends but at least we'll understand each other.

With regard to QF Eng I KNOW you have a lot of capability and expertise. I KNOW you are an exceptional organisation in many ways, and yes, when I do my research I know it was QF Eng who originally helped set up SIAEC and others.

There's a lesson in there for me, I suspect there is for others as well.

[whatdouknow]

Are you in a position to understand and do anything? Also, if you are are, do you care enough to right some wrongs.

I would hazard a guess that the answer would be No though, faith and respect is hard to retrieve after it is gone!

[rudderless1]

Don't waste the opportunity!

VOTE, don't stuff it up when you do so.
1/ Tick the right box, DON'T OTHERWISE MARK THE BALLOT
2/ SIGN THE BACK OF THE BALLOT ENVELOPE
3/ POST IT!
4/ CARRY IT OUT ASSERTIVELY

IF YOU DON'T YOU DESERVE WHAT YOU GET!