Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific
Reload this Page >

Mega Merged: AsA ATC staffing levels

Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Mega Merged: AsA ATC staffing levels

Old 3rd Jan 2008, 00:25
  #161 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
peuce, regards a quick fix, I don't think there really is one (see my post above about lead in times just to get to the field [2 years], and on some groups it takes up to 3 years to get ratings on all the airspace the group is responsible for!)

it has been suggested (more than once) to DEAF EARS SO FAR, that some of our training support staff are very familar with our TAAATS equipment, know a lot of the airspace already and generally have a pretty good grip of sep standards. But if you take the trainers into the field, who trains the new people?

The other thing that could be done is AsA could try to get ex-ATC's to come back (something they have been notorious for NOT doing prior to now). And most of those who left had pretty good reasons for doing so.

Or they could try poaching international ATC's.... except they won't pay what O/S ASP's do.
undervaluedATC is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2008, 00:29
  #162 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oz
Age: 49
Posts: 74
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
peuce - it cannot be fixed short term. It needed to be addressed long ago. SDE was meant to be the way management could keep controller numbers down and thereby increasing profit as the industry boomed in Australia. As it turns out, we actually need more controllers now. Who would have thought that people on the floor may have been right.......

So, to fix it, we need to pump money and resources into the area that has been neglected - training. This has been a low, low priority for too long now. It doesn't pay off short term to pour money into training, that's why the training system has been left to wither away for so long. We need an expert team from all streams into the college on 2 or 3 year rotations. It should not be seen as a shaft posting, but one that you can be proud of - you are teaching the new breed.

Thanks,

Showa.
Showa Cho is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2008, 07:58
  #163 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Posts: 1,994
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by undervaluedATC
it has been suggested (more than once) to DEAF EARS SO FAR, that some of our training support staff are very familar with our TAAATS equipment, know a lot of the airspace already and generally have a pretty good grip of sep standards.
Some have held licences, a lot have been on courses as well, but Airservices have stated that they aren't going to spend money training people who have already failed, regardless of the experience they have gained in the interim..

<-- so appropriate
Hempy is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2008, 09:16
  #164 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: You live where
Posts: 713
Received 73 Likes on 44 Posts
Unfortunately ATC training is seen as a cost rather than as an investment. it should be seen as an investment, an investment in the NAS within which we operate.

An ANSP can never have too many controllers. It is how you use them that is important. Firstly, never take them for granted, respect their skills and knowledge. ANSPs need controllers to develop better procedures, develop better (read more efficient) airpsace, develop more efficent and user friendly HMI, develop better documentation, introduce new technologies, respond to increasing traffic levels or different traffic patterns, provide career breaks and if they still have a few "spares", loan them to another ANSP, IATA, ICAO so that skills and knowledge acquired overseas can be applied in Australia.
missy is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2008, 11:31
  #165 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Posts: 1,994
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by missy
An ANSP can never have too many controllers. It is how you use them that is important. Firstly, never take them for granted, respect their skills and knowledge. ANSPs need controllers to develop better procedures, develop better (read more efficient) airpsace, develop more efficent and user friendly HMI, develop better documentation, introduce new technologies, respond to increasing traffic levels or different traffic patterns, provide career breaks and if they still have a few "spares", loan them to another ANSP, IATA, ICAO so that skills and knowledge acquired overseas can be applied in Australia.
Two words preclude all you have written, sadly. Executive bonus.
Hempy is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2008, 19:23
  #166 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UAE
Age: 63
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Can't help myself...too much post Christmas spirits...

The other thing that could be done is AsA could try to get ex-ATC's to come back (something they have been notorious for NOT doing prior to now). And most of those who left had pretty good reasons for doing so.
Bang on...the only problem was that when some of the o/s Ozzie ATCs applied, they were told that they did not fit the "profile" required by HR.
That would be the same profile that resulted in the big failure rates with some of the last courses I gather?

The questions should be asked of the two muppets that logged all that TA and all those frequent flyer points on their "Global Search" for ATCs...Just who on earth were you trying to employ?
All the ex-Aussie area controllers that were told to p!$$ off, or the Romanian, South African etc Tower and Approach guys, with little or no Area experience, that you offered jobs to?

I heard that the only Aussie that was given a gig back in Oz, was failed in the sim, possibly due to the male member envy of the checky? Is that the same checky that had the famous but now unmentionable cluster f***-up some years ago in a location between Brisbane and Cairns? (if it isn't the same guy, sorry for bringing that up)

Showa cho...just about too late to fix this problem. Sorry to say but the lead in times required means that it is all going to get a lot worse before it gets better, BUT with the current donkeys in charge...I'll leave it up to you to work out what is actually going to happen.
Whoever said that Australian airspace is like Africa, is pretty close to the mark.
Not the controlling abilities of the coal face guys and gals, but the ineptitude of current management that is staggering belief.
During a recent flight, we launched through the UAE, Oman, Pakistan, India, Thailand, Singapore and Indonesia before hitting the "Worlds best practice" FIR. Funnily enough, as soon as we crossed the fence, we changed level by 500 feet...and cruised at a VFR level for several hours...ahhh, the benefits of TIBA became immediately apparent. I mean no more listening to those pesky ATCs...because there were none listening, the pilots must have been having a ball up the front
Real first world service industry standards...NOT!

...If they still have a few "spares", loan them to another ANSP, IATA, ICAO so that skills and knowledge acquired overseas can be applied in Australia.
Missy, that is priceless! The absolute last thing that the current AsA management want is Australian overseas experienced controllers coming back to OZ.
Imagine the angst that finding out opinions from people that have actually worked and experienced overseas systems differ greatly from their cherished and entrenched positions?
How on earth could they cope with that? I'll give you a tip....never let the situation occur where it could happen, that's how.
divingduck is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2008, 21:06
  #167 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: P@$#ing distance from 2 borders
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Divingduck

I heard that the only Aussie that was given a gig back in Oz, was failed in the sim, possibly due to the male member envy of the checky?
I think you will find there is one Aussie controller ex Maastricht, that is successfully out of the sim & getting close for checkout.
The Euronator is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2008, 22:50
  #168 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Posts: 1,994
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by divingduck
Missy, that is priceless! The absolute last thing that the current AsA management want is Australian overseas experienced controllers coming back to OZ.
Imagine the angst that finding out opinions from people that have actually worked and experienced overseas systems differ greatly from their cherished and entrenched positions?
How on earth could they cope with that? I'll give you a tip....never let the situation occur where it could happen, that's how.
duck, there is a simple reason. Airservices are pissed off that they spent $300000 training you to be an ATC, skills which you subsequently took overseas. Therefore, you have profited from their investment. And you have the gall to want to come back?

p.s this is not my personal opinion, so don't shoot the messenger. I have, however, heard conversations involving "decision makers" along those lines.
Hempy is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2008, 08:42
  #169 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sandpit
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
To those that think I robbed AsA of their training investment..f@$* them. I gave them 10 years 1 month service and 2 marriages.

In 2000/2001 I worked 300+ hours overtime just to help the unit through airspace transition. Then came more projects, changes, leave embargoes and more requests for overtime (this was coincidently the time that my 2nd wife said uncle).

My daughter on a recent visit over here said that I was much happier and settled, she related stories of how and her sister used to go running to their rooms hiding when I got home from work because I was always so grumpy and angry.

I gave AsA what they wanted and when I could no longer cope with the crap I was left with no choice but to seek O/S employment. I lament leaving my colleagues short handed.

However despite all the problems I face from living and working in the middle east pales when compared to working for the 1st world's 3rd world ANSP (aka AsA).

Last edited by Funk; 4th Jan 2008 at 12:01.
Funk is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2008, 08:59
  #170 (permalink)  
I'm in one of those moods
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: SFC to A085
Posts: 759
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Funk ... Anecdotally, I reackon the numbers of those who have/are suffering as you suggest would be frightening!
.
.... two of my closest mates in the last 12 months .... same!
.
.... the 'nature of the beast' (job) is not really the issue, it is/always has been the culture of use and abuse (reasonableness of total workload) of the coalface ..... a double edged sword (professionalism) for the coalface .... is it worth it when that is the result?? ... mores the point ... should it be allowed to get to that point?

Last edited by Scurvy.D.Dog; 4th Jan 2008 at 09:26.
Scurvy.D.Dog is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2008, 11:59
  #171 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: 24 27 45.66N 54 22 42.28E
Posts: 987
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hempy, the reason there are so many Oz expat controllers is that we all got sick of the complete mismanagement of ASA, and the constant penny pinching. The EBA "negotiations" where they would give a 3% "increase" in return for removing conditions that had been fought for and won in the past. Splitting of the workforce to the point where we were all on different scales and as a result different salaries for doing the same job with similair experience levels. Not filling call outs because the minimum staffing requirements were only "guidelines".

They spent $300,000 training us, we passed and we returned a minimum of 5 years of service. We have moved on and have continued to be trained in all sorts of airspace the world over. We have all gained experience be it Centre supervisor, Incident investigation, Ab Initio Course instruction, Radar System Adaptation and so on.

Now if the decision makers in ASA don't want to get a further return on that $300,000 they spent and the other hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on us since then they can keep their heads buried in the sand. But if they do, all they need to do is contact us with a realistic offer recognising our experience and knowledge, and we will consider the offer carefully. It just makes no sense to me that anyone would say that they don't want to take people back because they have lost in the past the money they spent training these people. Best way to resolve that situation would be to get them back (and fix the problems that caused them (and many more soon) to leave in the first place.)
AirNoServicesAustralia is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2008, 12:26
  #172 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Posts: 1,994
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
ANSA, I'm sure everyone who has left has a valid reason for doing so, but I'm a nobody. Address your thoughts to management, perhaps your insightful argument might sway their opinion (just don't hold your breath)

Originally Posted by Hempy
this is not my personal opinion, so don't shoot the messenger
Hempy is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2008, 18:12
  #173 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UAE
Age: 63
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Euronator...

G'day old son.

I heard that the only Aussie that was given a gig back in Oz, was failed in the sim
That was the situation when I was back in OZ in December... From what the working controllers on that group said...it seemed to have been nothing to do with his controlling ability. As you say, he is now getting close to validating.
Draw your own conclusions...
divingduck is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2008, 23:03
  #174 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Oztrailea
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You have to applaud all this new found honesty that TFN and the other drongo have finally found.

Lets hope that in a gesture of conscience and moral fortitude that BOTH give up the mega bonuses that are in line for.

Surely admitting that they have missed the game while feeding at the trough is enough for the Board () and the incoming minister () to remove the bonuses for LACK OF PERFORMANCE.

Bring on the Revolution !!!
flightfocus is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2008, 06:18
  #175 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
ANSA and Hempy... great to see you two talking to each other again. It's been far too long
Roger Standby is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2008, 08:19
  #176 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 1,144
Received 6 Likes on 3 Posts
Flightfocus,

"this new found honesty that TFN and the other drongo have finally found."

Please explain ???
peuce is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2008, 21:57
  #177 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Oz
Age: 68
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I just found our missing controllers....
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/...828490947.html

Seems that long range planning is 3-4 years.
Knackers is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2008, 22:31
  #178 (permalink)  
I'm in one of those moods
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: SFC to A085
Posts: 759
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
ahhhh yes .... ARG , the WW report , ATS costs , Airports costs , and the former fed government
.
... ties in with your Q peuce
"this new found honesty that TFN and the other drongo have finally found."
.
Please explain ???
.... before Christmas in ML Centre ..... words to the effect that they were sorry, and that they had stuffed up resource planning!
.
.. given that article from 03' (and miriads of other doc's in the system), readers can make up their own minds as to how innocent (oversight) this 'stuff up' really is
.
... how many went? .... 300+ (across the ANSP) since TFN arrived? ... nah couldn't be .... I mean you would have to see if the system could run effectively without those folks before marching them ..... wouldn't one??
Scurvy.D.Dog is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2008, 03:15
  #179 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Grrr

no worries folks, our morale issues are solved!

the general manager is going to buy us coffee.

once a week until easter.

on a wednesday morning.

but only in the brisbane or melbourne canteen.

(sorry regionals/towers, you miss out again)
undervaluedATC is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2008, 08:52
  #180 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Posts: 1,994
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Airservices Australia Vision and Values


Our Vision


To be a focused provider of air navigation and aviation services, with our competitive edge built on safety and the application of leading edge technology.

Our Values

We recognise the need for:
  • Keeping safety first
  • A collective, consistent sense of organisational identity
  • Strong, credible and accountable leadership
  • Our management and staff to be outward looking, both present and future oriented, and to embrace challenges proactively
  • A spirit of unity, teamwork and trust.
Hempy is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.