Mega Merged: AsA ATC staffing levels
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peuce, regards a quick fix, I don't think there really is one (see my post above about lead in times just to get to the field [2 years], and on some groups it takes up to 3 years to get ratings on all the airspace the group is responsible for!)
it has been suggested (more than once) to DEAF EARS SO FAR, that some of our training support staff are very familar with our TAAATS equipment, know a lot of the airspace already and generally have a pretty good grip of sep standards. But if you take the trainers into the field, who trains the new people?
The other thing that could be done is AsA could try to get ex-ATC's to come back (something they have been notorious for NOT doing prior to now). And most of those who left had pretty good reasons for doing so.
Or they could try poaching international ATC's.... except they won't pay what O/S ASP's do.
it has been suggested (more than once) to DEAF EARS SO FAR, that some of our training support staff are very familar with our TAAATS equipment, know a lot of the airspace already and generally have a pretty good grip of sep standards. But if you take the trainers into the field, who trains the new people?
The other thing that could be done is AsA could try to get ex-ATC's to come back (something they have been notorious for NOT doing prior to now). And most of those who left had pretty good reasons for doing so.
Or they could try poaching international ATC's.... except they won't pay what O/S ASP's do.
peuce - it cannot be fixed short term. It needed to be addressed long ago. SDE was meant to be the way management could keep controller numbers down and thereby increasing profit as the industry boomed in Australia. As it turns out, we actually need more controllers now. Who would have thought that people on the floor may have been right.......
So, to fix it, we need to pump money and resources into the area that has been neglected - training. This has been a low, low priority for too long now. It doesn't pay off short term to pour money into training, that's why the training system has been left to wither away for so long. We need an expert team from all streams into the college on 2 or 3 year rotations. It should not be seen as a shaft posting, but one that you can be proud of - you are teaching the new breed.
Thanks,
Showa.
So, to fix it, we need to pump money and resources into the area that has been neglected - training. This has been a low, low priority for too long now. It doesn't pay off short term to pour money into training, that's why the training system has been left to wither away for so long. We need an expert team from all streams into the college on 2 or 3 year rotations. It should not be seen as a shaft posting, but one that you can be proud of - you are teaching the new breed.
Thanks,
Showa.
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Originally Posted by undervaluedATC
it has been suggested (more than once) to DEAF EARS SO FAR, that some of our training support staff are very familar with our TAAATS equipment, know a lot of the airspace already and generally have a pretty good grip of sep standards.
<-- so appropriate
Unfortunately ATC training is seen as a cost rather than as an investment. it should be seen as an investment, an investment in the NAS within which we operate.
An ANSP can never have too many controllers. It is how you use them that is important. Firstly, never take them for granted, respect their skills and knowledge. ANSPs need controllers to develop better procedures, develop better (read more efficient) airpsace, develop more efficent and user friendly HMI, develop better documentation, introduce new technologies, respond to increasing traffic levels or different traffic patterns, provide career breaks and if they still have a few "spares", loan them to another ANSP, IATA, ICAO so that skills and knowledge acquired overseas can be applied in Australia.
An ANSP can never have too many controllers. It is how you use them that is important. Firstly, never take them for granted, respect their skills and knowledge. ANSPs need controllers to develop better procedures, develop better (read more efficient) airpsace, develop more efficent and user friendly HMI, develop better documentation, introduce new technologies, respond to increasing traffic levels or different traffic patterns, provide career breaks and if they still have a few "spares", loan them to another ANSP, IATA, ICAO so that skills and knowledge acquired overseas can be applied in Australia.
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Originally Posted by missy
An ANSP can never have too many controllers. It is how you use them that is important. Firstly, never take them for granted, respect their skills and knowledge. ANSPs need controllers to develop better procedures, develop better (read more efficient) airpsace, develop more efficent and user friendly HMI, develop better documentation, introduce new technologies, respond to increasing traffic levels or different traffic patterns, provide career breaks and if they still have a few "spares", loan them to another ANSP, IATA, ICAO so that skills and knowledge acquired overseas can be applied in Australia.
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Can't help myself...too much post Christmas spirits...
The other thing that could be done is AsA could try to get ex-ATC's to come back (something they have been notorious for NOT doing prior to now). And most of those who left had pretty good reasons for doing so.
That would be the same profile that resulted in the big failure rates with some of the last courses I gather?
The questions should be asked of the two muppets that logged all that TA and all those frequent flyer points on their "Global Search" for ATCs...Just who on earth were you trying to employ?
All the ex-Aussie area controllers that were told to p!$$ off, or the Romanian, South African etc Tower and Approach guys, with little or no Area experience, that you offered jobs to?
I heard that the only Aussie that was given a gig back in Oz, was failed in the sim, possibly due to the male member envy of the checky? Is that the same checky that had the famous but now unmentionable cluster f***-up some years ago in a location between Brisbane and Cairns? (if it isn't the same guy, sorry for bringing that up
)Showa cho...just about too late to fix this problem. Sorry to say but the lead in times required means that it is all going to get a lot worse before it gets better, BUT with the current donkeys in charge...I'll leave it up to you to work out what is actually going to happen.
Whoever said that Australian airspace is like Africa, is pretty close to the mark.
Not the controlling abilities of the coal face guys and gals, but the ineptitude of current management that is staggering belief.
During a recent flight, we launched through the UAE, Oman, Pakistan, India, Thailand, Singapore and Indonesia before hitting the "Worlds best practice" FIR. Funnily enough, as soon as we crossed the fence, we changed level by 500 feet...and cruised at a VFR level for several hours...ahhh, the benefits of TIBA became immediately apparent. I mean no more listening to those pesky ATCs...because there were none listening, the pilots must have been having a ball up the front
Real first world service industry standards...NOT!
...If they still have a few "spares", loan them to another ANSP, IATA, ICAO so that skills and knowledge acquired overseas can be applied in Australia.
Imagine the angst that finding out opinions from people that have actually worked and experienced overseas systems differ greatly from their cherished and entrenched positions?
How on earth could they cope with that? I'll give you a tip....never let the situation occur where it could happen, that's how.
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Divingduck
I heard that the only Aussie that was given a gig back in Oz, was failed in the sim, possibly due to the male member envy of the checky?
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Originally Posted by divingduck
Missy, that is priceless! The absolute last thing that the current AsA management want is Australian overseas experienced controllers coming back to OZ.
Imagine the angst that finding out opinions from people that have actually worked and experienced overseas systems differ greatly from their cherished and entrenched positions?
How on earth could they cope with that? I'll give you a tip....never let the situation occur where it could happen, that's how.
Imagine the angst that finding out opinions from people that have actually worked and experienced overseas systems differ greatly from their cherished and entrenched positions?
How on earth could they cope with that? I'll give you a tip....never let the situation occur where it could happen, that's how.
p.s this is not my personal opinion, so don't shoot the messenger. I have, however, heard conversations involving "decision makers" along those lines.
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To those that think I robbed AsA of their training investment..f@$* them. I gave them 10 years 1 month service and 2 marriages.
In 2000/2001 I worked 300+ hours overtime just to help the unit through airspace transition. Then came more projects, changes, leave embargoes and more requests for overtime (this was coincidently the time that my 2nd wife said uncle).
My daughter on a recent visit over here said that I was much happier and settled, she related stories of how and her sister used to go running to their rooms hiding when I got home from work because I was always so grumpy and angry.
I gave AsA what they wanted and when I could no longer cope with the crap I was left with no choice but to seek O/S employment. I lament leaving my colleagues short handed.
However despite all the problems I face from living and working in the middle east pales when compared to working for the 1st world's 3rd world ANSP (aka AsA).
In 2000/2001 I worked 300+ hours overtime just to help the unit through airspace transition. Then came more projects, changes, leave embargoes and more requests for overtime (this was coincidently the time that my 2nd wife said uncle).
My daughter on a recent visit over here said that I was much happier and settled, she related stories of how and her sister used to go running to their rooms hiding when I got home from work because I was always so grumpy and angry.
I gave AsA what they wanted and when I could no longer cope with the crap I was left with no choice but to seek O/S employment. I lament leaving my colleagues short handed.
However despite all the problems I face from living and working in the middle east pales when compared to working for the 1st world's 3rd world ANSP (aka AsA).
Last edited by Funk; 4th Jan 2008 at 12:01.
I'm in one of those moods
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Funk ... Anecdotally, I reackon the numbers of those who have/are suffering as you suggest would be frightening! 
.
.... two of my closest mates in the last 12 months .... same!
.
.... the 'nature of the beast' (job) is not really the issue, it is/always has been the culture of use and abuse (reasonableness of total workload) of the coalface ..... a double edged sword (professionalism) for the coalface .... is it worth it when that is the result?? ... mores the point ... should it be allowed to get to that point?
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.... two of my closest mates in the last 12 months .... same!
.
.... the 'nature of the beast' (job) is not really the issue, it is/always has been the culture of use and abuse (reasonableness of total workload) of the coalface ..... a double edged sword (professionalism) for the coalface .... is it worth it when that is the result?? ... mores the point ... should it be allowed to get to that point?
Last edited by Scurvy.D.Dog; 4th Jan 2008 at 09:26.
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Hempy, the reason there are so many Oz expat controllers is that we all got sick of the complete mismanagement of ASA, and the constant penny pinching. The EBA "negotiations" where they would give a 3% "increase" in return for removing conditions that had been fought for and won in the past. Splitting of the workforce to the point where we were all on different scales and as a result different salaries for doing the same job with similair experience levels. Not filling call outs because the minimum staffing requirements were only "guidelines".
They spent $300,000 training us, we passed and we returned a minimum of 5 years of service. We have moved on and have continued to be trained in all sorts of airspace the world over. We have all gained experience be it Centre supervisor, Incident investigation, Ab Initio Course instruction, Radar System Adaptation and so on.
Now if the decision makers in ASA don't want to get a further return on that $300,000 they spent and the other hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on us since then they can keep their heads buried in the sand. But if they do, all they need to do is contact us with a realistic offer recognising our experience and knowledge, and we will consider the offer carefully. It just makes no sense to me that anyone would say that they don't want to take people back because they have lost in the past the money they spent training these people. Best way to resolve that situation would be to get them back (and fix the problems that caused them (and many more soon) to leave in the first place.)
They spent $300,000 training us, we passed and we returned a minimum of 5 years of service. We have moved on and have continued to be trained in all sorts of airspace the world over. We have all gained experience be it Centre supervisor, Incident investigation, Ab Initio Course instruction, Radar System Adaptation and so on.
Now if the decision makers in ASA don't want to get a further return on that $300,000 they spent and the other hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on us since then they can keep their heads buried in the sand. But if they do, all they need to do is contact us with a realistic offer recognising our experience and knowledge, and we will consider the offer carefully. It just makes no sense to me that anyone would say that they don't want to take people back because they have lost in the past the money they spent training these people. Best way to resolve that situation would be to get them back (and fix the problems that caused them (and many more soon) to leave in the first place.)
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ANSA, I'm sure everyone who has left has a valid reason for doing so, but I'm a nobody. Address your thoughts to management, perhaps your insightful argument might sway their opinion (just don't hold your breath)
Originally Posted by Hempy
this is not my personal opinion, so don't shoot the messenger
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Euronator...
G'day old son.
That was the situation when I was back in OZ in December... From what the working controllers on that group said...it seemed to have been nothing to do with his controlling ability. As you say, he is now getting close to validating.
Draw your own conclusions...
I heard that the only Aussie that was given a gig back in Oz, was failed in the sim
Draw your own conclusions...
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You have to applaud all this new found honesty that TFN and the other drongo have finally found.
Lets hope that in a gesture of conscience and moral fortitude that BOTH give up the mega bonuses that are in line for.
Surely admitting that they have missed the game while feeding at the trough is enough for the Board (
) and the incoming minister (
) to remove the bonuses for LACK OF PERFORMANCE.
Bring on the Revolution !!!
Lets hope that in a gesture of conscience and moral fortitude that BOTH give up the mega bonuses that are in line for.
Surely admitting that they have missed the game while feeding at the trough is enough for the Board (
) and the incoming minister () to remove the bonuses for LACK OF PERFORMANCE.Bring on the Revolution !!!
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I just found our missing controllers....
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/...828490947.html
Seems that long range planning is 3-4 years.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/...828490947.html
Seems that long range planning is 3-4 years.
I'm in one of those moods
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ahhhh yes .... ARG 
, the WW report , ATS costs , Airports costs , and the former fed government
.
... ties in with your Q peuce
.... before Christmas in ML Centre ..... words to the effect that they were sorry, and that they had stuffed up resource planning! 
.
.. given that article from 03' (and miriads of other doc's in the system), readers can make up their own minds as to how innocent (oversight) this 'stuff up' really is
.
... how many went? .... 300+ (across the ANSP) since TFN arrived? ... nah couldn't be .... I mean you would have to see if the system could run effectively without those folks before marching them ..... wouldn't one??
, the WW report , ATS costs , Airports costs , and the former fed government .
... ties in with your Q peuce
"this new found honesty that TFN and the other drongo have finally found."
.
Please explain ???
.
Please explain ???
.
.. given that article from 03' (and miriads of other doc's in the system), readers can make up their own minds as to how innocent (oversight) this 'stuff up' really is
.
... how many went? .... 300+ (across the ANSP) since TFN arrived? ... nah couldn't be .... I mean you would have to see if the system could run effectively without those folks before marching them ..... wouldn't one??
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no worries folks, our morale issues are solved!
the general manager is going to buy us coffee.
once a week until easter.
on a wednesday morning.
but only in the brisbane or melbourne canteen.
(sorry regionals/towers, you miss out again)
the general manager is going to buy us coffee.
once a week until easter.
on a wednesday morning.
but only in the brisbane or melbourne canteen.
(sorry regionals/towers, you miss out again)
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