Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific
Reload this Page >

Mega Merged: AsA ATC staffing levels

Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Mega Merged: AsA ATC staffing levels

Old 25th Jan 2008, 22:15
  #221 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dubai
Age: 45
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Does any of this sort of thing happen in the BN FIR? Everything always seems to happen down here - never hear of, say, CS TCU going TIBA/TRA or anything like that......

Is that why they keep foisting everything BN does on us down here?

Further to my last post, if they are that scared of resignations, why the hell wouldn't you do something to keep the resignations from happening? Paint me pink and call me stupid if I'm wrong but it makes no operational sense at all to have FPCs with years of experience walk out the door just to have to recruit three people in the hopes that in 5 years at least one of them has the licence and ratings to replace that one FPC!



My head really is starting to hurt from bashing it against the brick wall so much.....
westausatc is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2008, 00:49
  #222 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: meh
Posts: 674
Received 10 Likes on 7 Posts
Brisbane had a large number a tad over a year ago. I have personally sat next to two empty screens in the last 6 months as well as making the 'we are gone, no staff' broadcast three times 18 or so months ago. Air New Zealand had no issues in flying through I note. I wonder if they even knew there was noone there.
Plazbot is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2008, 01:28
  #223 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Sale, VIC, AUS
Age: 50
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
With a well practiced rolling of her eyes...
reminds me of another quote:

Behind every great man is a woman rolling her eyes
shadowoneau is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2008, 02:11
  #224 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Oztrailea
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Bravo Odie Juan Karaoke,

One of the best and insightful posts for some time on this issue.

Based on your excellent article I am going out to purchase and subsequently install a series of RED WINE EXTINGUISHER BOTTLES.

What strikes me is the rapid and uncontrolled way the company is spiraling out of control.

I can not believe that they are able to keep a lid on the reality of the situation. How can ministers and the media not see that this is an issue that needs to be rectified and resolved.

I know lets get A Current Affair on our time. They seem to have a great deal of success.
flightfocus is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2008, 08:05
  #225 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
To add to all that has recently been said - the 'interview' with the CEO just so clearly demonstates how far from reality he is connected. And as has been stated so many times - it is not a good reality, things are very bad and still getting worse.

It could be that the CEO believes what he says and this is because he is not getting the full picture or the real truth being passed up the line to him from the managers below of what's really going on and how dire the situation is becoming.

I agree we are not helping ourselves by keeping things afloat and we're only just doing this. Airservices will just keep asking for more and more with no end in sight........
rabbit123 is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2008, 08:41
  #226 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: On a Ship Near You
Posts: 787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Take tonight

Melbourne Tower is in 'enforced' tactical spacing due lack of controllers, positions on combine where they would otherwise be separated (sic), Canberra TMA was closed for 30 minutes (Yes the national Capital, sic) due to non availability of staff.

The cards are all stacking up; Dubai, Canada, Muscat, Abu Dhabi, Ireland, Canada, Switzerland, Germany, New Zealand are all currently looking to 'attract' rated and experienced controllers; because of the 'immediate crisis'. God knows what would happen if the USA "relaxed" or helped (by sponsoring citizenship) to get around their citizenship restriction; rumours of 1000+ short.

The global supply/demand ratio is starting to take hold; if ASA comes with another stupid inept offer (who believes they will do anything else) then the motivation to "stay in there a little longer" is going to wane.

My read is people have now exhausted their personal motivations to do extra for a "money hungry mob" that refuse to listen to their staff; see each extra step towards combined sectors, splitting rosters down SDE lines, removing support roles (TFDC/AUSFIC) increase the demotivating effects. People everywhere will always be motivated by money, but I see people getting too tired to care anymore; particularly when forethought did foresee the trouble we are in (but was ignored due to political convenience); and we all know it's only going to get worse.

36 'official' shortages (22 line controllers + 14 others controller only jobs), coupled with 85 or so non-operational 'vacancies' to boot (pesky things like Mat-leave, LWOP, LSL, Sick Leave, LOEQ, etc.). Add in the 10-30 (depending on who you ask) people seriously looking for greener/sandier/whiter grass and it's a house of cards about to come tumbling in.

I heard today that 3 people left last week; I know of another who has a job elsewhere (and will give notice soon) and personally know 6 people just waiting to pull up stumps when their offers elsewhere are formalised.

Kaboom, get out while you can
SM4 Pirate is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2008, 12:10
  #227 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Columbia
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Just wanted to get the USERNAME out there again

Agree Rabbit123,

TFN was in my opinion patronising when he weaseled on about salaries, the guy doesn't really believe that, he's blowing hot air up ones bottom. He's an accountant, or at least he looks like one! (you know what there like remember DC?)

Rather buy my own coffee than have to wait till Wednesday morning for it , what the hell will I do after easter if I become addicted to there poxy coffee. Yes the idea was insulting, a tight arsed effort to get everyone on side, WHAT A JOKE!

Once again, nice and loud!

BEGONE TFN, you SUCK, you don't have the ownership over ASA that we the employees have developed over many years.

You're there for your five minutes of glory, well you've stuffed it, now bugger off!

BgTFN
BeGoneTFN is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2008, 20:03
  #228 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Australia
Age: 58
Posts: 2,240
Received 106 Likes on 51 Posts
Management must start back on Tuesday after the nice summer holidays.
Only another 47 weeks and Richard Dudley will be on the radio news telling everyone the Santa has put his flight plan in, ASA will ensure that Santa travels safely through the airspace even though it might be a TIBA and YMML might not have any controllers. But gee it must give the mums and dads who don't have any idea a warm fuzzy feeling!!!
Stationair8 is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2008, 22:04
  #229 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Australia
Age: 58
Posts: 2,240
Received 106 Likes on 51 Posts
Don't forget to fill in your General Aviation Survey Form in.
How do you rate our services?
www.airservicesaustralia.com/gasurvey/
Stationair8 is offline  
Old 28th Jan 2008, 09:10
  #230 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Odie Juan,

You make some interesting points but it is not a simple as you make out. Don't forget that a lot of more recently rated controllers need to do AD to get within 50k of FPC pay because past certified agreements have particularly shafted those who aren't onboard yet. These people didn't vote to shaft themselves, don't blame them for not being too supportive of those earning top bracket who preach about not doing AD.
Driscoll is offline  
Old 28th Jan 2008, 22:25
  #231 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Chad
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Maybe it's time for Airservices to apply for permission to use the new ICAO message designator when telling pilots about airspace closures and TIBA, etc.

I understand that ICAO recently approved the use of SCROTAM as a message designator, where messages contain 'a complete load of bollocks!'.

Apparently it stands for:

Senior management Concoctions Relating to Omissions of Truth about Airspace Management.

Seems an appropriate use of the designator...
WELLCONCERNED is offline  
Old 28th Jan 2008, 22:39
  #232 (permalink)  
I'm in one of those moods
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: SFC to A085
Posts: 759
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
OJK .... erudite
.
WC .... gold .... pure gold .... may I use that in anger?
Scurvy.D.Dog is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2008, 00:40
  #233 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Bleak City
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Ooooh No Odie,

We're all 'stickin together'

Back to the thrust of your excellent posts.

You have been sold out by the seniors in your profession in a most stunning fashion, (I'm a senior by the way) try getting any of these guys to admit to voting yes to the last couple of EBA's. It's an absolute fecking disgrace that it takes a controller 14(?) years to get to the top of the pay scale (maybe more with your ALM breathing down your neck about sick leave etc).

Sold out well and truly mate, and I don't know how we can sell you out any further dowstream.

Although there is an EBA coming up soon. My prediction you ask? Your weak as p!ss brothers sitting beside you (the ones on the top dollars) will cave for CPI and a bit.

And your complicit union will say, 'ah well, there is a re-cession coming on you know and some of these new airlines don't look too stable, make up your own mind fellas' Once again fostering a collective voice. (heavy with sarcasm)

Enjoy your travel mate
En-Rooter is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2008, 01:36
  #234 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: the big island
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Maybe it's time for someone to write non stop to Kevin07 and Tony to let them know what is happening until they fix it?

Or do we just wait for poor old Kev to be delayed coming in to Canberra one night due to lack of TMA staff ?

The most unfortunate part of the saga is that most of the good management who could actually fix this disaster have moved out of ASA into other organisations.

Something needs to be done fast though to get more ab-inits into the College. It'd be such a shame to see that Tower Sim go unused because of a lack of students (no wait, that assumes it actually works ). Why are there not enough students coming out at the moment ? Is it a problem with recruitment not providing the proper candidates or something bigger ?

Maybe it's time for some action ala the 90's so some serious attention is brought to the shamble conditions ATCs are being forced to work under at the moment?

I'm sure the punters would get very firey if they know their lives are at risk due to overworked, tired, under appreciated controllers trying their best. As they say, it just takes a few small events to make a chain reaction.............
contactdepartures is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2008, 02:31
  #235 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
driscoll,

I've been through three EBA's with AsA. It sounds like you work here too. What on earth makes you think selling out the newbies was something the union came up with? Would it not be much more obvious that AsA has been actively trying to reduce the cost of new employees? As Odie says - economics 101. I understand that it sucks to be doing the same job for less money [and yes, I had 18months of budget FPC] but the union is on your side - you are the current and future members - if they don't look after you, there will be no union in years to come.

Enrooter
I hope you are agitating your supposed "piss-weak" colleges at the coal face and not just sledging them anonymously here if you want some change to occur.


odie,
agreed, the untapped potential is of ATC's is huge, IMHO. But it will remained untapped so long as AsA continues to treat us as a cost, rather than an asset.

contactdepartures,
RE: recruitment. AsA still advertises that it prefers uni-qualified applicants. Yet in the last 10 years, it has actually REDUCED the college [sorry - "academy" - gag] salary, by the tune of 10 grand down to $30K something! [and AsA eliminated transfer allowance] Any uni qualified person could reasonably expect to go into at least a $40K position - I wonder why no-one applies??? Compounding this problem is the industries boom - you can earn the same out west driving a truck, and not be subject to weekly performance milestones.

What's the solution?
undervaluedATC is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2008, 03:02
  #236 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
undervaluedATC,

I don't think the union has deliberately sold out newbies, I just think that because those not affected by it are not around when it gets presented it doesn't draw much attention. Fortunately I was only mildly shafted under the old agreement unlike people who join up now and go through one increment at a time unless they grovel in which case they may rewarded with one extra. The so called FPC fix is an embarrassment but only the new people who never got a say care.
Driscoll is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2008, 05:46
  #237 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Sydney NSW Australia
Posts: 3,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
what exactly is the first year pay rate for trainees? will it be worth while giving up my current $60K job to continue with my ASA recruitment process?
Ultralights is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2008, 06:01
  #238 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: meh
Posts: 674
Received 10 Likes on 7 Posts
Ultralights, the certified agreement and all pay rates are on the Airservices web site.

RE: The Union selling out newbies, keep in mind that the union IS the controllers and the controllers sold out the newbies.

To the comment about those with staunch no OT stances, I can be pretty certain that those with that view are the ones that voted No. Me for one. I have not done one since the Tongan auto mailer brilliance.

Also, I still shake my head at the Union Exec and the last EBA. The impression they constantly put across was that the alternatives to not voting yes were far worse than voting yes specially as we would end up as the test case for work choices etc. It was pathetic when the Exec the turned around and said 'We did not tell you to vote for it!! We did not endorse it at all'.

EnRouter, I think you have got it pretty well mapped out. I hope the rest of the crowd prove me wrong.
Plazbot is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2008, 07:24
  #239 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Posts: 1,994
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Odie Juan Karaoke,

AAAA1111++++, excellent poster, will read again.

If I may extrapolate on this:

But ASA seem to be completely ignorant of the potential explosion in profit (if nothing else) they could achieve if they harnessed it. Some individuals in management might privately "get it" but the organisation doesn't. ASA senior managers seem to be characterised by their "conformity" - I can't think of one that is a "renegade" that challenges organisational "shibboleths" and actually leads. They seem to have two main interests. Firstly - to reduce "costs". They don't seem to understand that the "opportunity cost" of not fully utilising their means of production (their ATC's) is so much higher than they could ever recover by their present "penny pinching". Secondly - not rocking the boat in the upwards direction. In my experience in the private sector the most successful businesses almost always have a robust culture of challenging the upper echelons of the business. But far more interestingly - the upper echelons welcome it because it forces them to continually sharpen and refine their thinking. With us, it appears that any form of behaviour interpreted as a challenge is the only time ASA moves fast - to have the "challenger" escorted off the premises.
There is an old reasoning that Air Traffic Controllers make terrible managers; the reason being that they have spent the majority of their careers making instant decisions. An old and respected instructor (WonKing) once told me that the worst thing you can do as an ATC is do nothing (ATC's are selected in part on this criteria). Indecision has no place, presented with any situation, you have to make a decision and stick to it. The key to survival is the ability to either never make a bad decision, or the ability to get out of a bad one. Not many can get through even 5 years and honestly say "I've never made a bad decision", and I don't expect any managers can either. The difference is how those bad decisions are managed; as an ATC, you work with it, vector 4 instead of 1, descend another, and then when you (eventually) get out think "hmm, wont do that again". Our managers seem to have carried this thought pattern past the console and into their present careers, and I'm not entirely sure it is good trait to have in those positions ("SDE, well, its going ahead because I say so..."). We need ATC's as "operational managers", the knowledge base is necessary. The problem is that not many have the ability to do both (or don't pass interviews)

Added to the fact that although the place would have an impressive collective IQ, formal qualifications are rare. Combined with the unique nature of the job skill set (making ATC's seemingly unemployable outside the "job"), most of our managers fully realise that they could not make $160,000+/yr anywhere else. This tends to galvanise their thinking in a particular direction, i.e. whatever their immediate boss tells them, and so on, etc. The buck has to stop somewhere, but the problem is systemic.

When I first started we were a "public service", with all the associated connotations; now we are a "Government Business Enterprise".............with all the associated connotations.
Hempy is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2008, 07:29
  #240 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 561
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Smile

Plaz,

Me old china, you are really getting cyncial up on Tops. Obviously, I'm going to have to get into aisle 1 very soon. (last word it won't be til May)

Civl Air is a union run by its members. If you thought that the Prez's statement about the last CA offer was weak, then tell him. He is man enough to take it. Better still, go see the VP in aisle 3 who is on the current CA negotiating committee and let him know your feelings.

BTW, I think Underrated hit the nail on the head.
DirtyPierre is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.