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Mega Merged: AsA ATC staffing levels

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Mega Merged: AsA ATC staffing levels

Old 27th Dec 2007, 08:38
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Angry Wellconcerned....

I don't usually respond to such obvious trolls, but in this muppets case, I shall make an exception.

Go ahead - go to the Muddle East - then see what REAL work is like. No potections, called to work 31 shifts in 30 days, great money - but REALLY high cost of living through 'keep up with the Jones' expectations.
Just where on earth do you get your information?
No protection? We have CARS that would make AsA managers shudder if enforced.
31 shifts in 30 days? WTF are you talking about? We work generally 18 shifts PER MONTH! Work 2, 24 hours off, work 2, 24 hours off, work 2, rest day off then 3 full days off....and it keeps on rolling just like that.
The AsA controllers I talk to would kill to have our ME rosters.
The ME controllers would walk if given a roster like the ones the AsA guys have to endure.
They cannot go on strike, it's illegal in our home, democratic country, so the only way that they CAN make a point is NOT to come in and do overtimes.

And that keep up with the Jones' quip...when you know what you are talking about come back and chat.

You slack-a*sed wombats need to cop-on to yourselves and realise that you have exceptionally high paid jobs, for f***-all work, and really very little responsibility [your machines do all the work for you anyway].
As for that comment...the only reason that I have actually pasted it here is so that when you wake up and realise what a **** you have been, you can't delete it, it will be here for all to see.

Don't go away angry, just go away
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Old 27th Dec 2007, 09:45
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diving duck,directnospeed, thanks guys,

for a couple of hours I thought it was only me who could'nt believe what this person is saying.

And you're right, we would love the ME rosters.
my roster
1500-2300
1130-1930
0600-1300 back that night 2300-0600
2 days off [so long as I say no to the overtimes]
repeat over and over and over

so that's 12.5 between the first two shifts, 10.5 between the 2nd and 3rd, and 10 hours during which I'm supposed to sleep during the day so I can be awake all night - just like I was 6 nights ago.

and by the by, my average number aircraft for the shift is 16+/-2 on frequency at all times.

But I'm used to pilot thinking they are the only one I'm looking after

"the machines do all the work"
Oh My God! Have you ever been inside an air traffic control centre?

I think you're confusing your work with mine.

I repeat:
well informed you are not.
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Old 27th Dec 2007, 12:18
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Wellconcerned,

Please be advised that I look forward to the negotiations from the point of view that rather than be treated as crap, ASA management may in fact realise that ATC's would prefer to be value adding despite their (managements) best efforts to run the place into the toilet!

Yes, I see the EBA as bringing this debacle to a close maybe the current state of affairs need to be made public!

Everyone is sick of the O/T, alot of people have been non contactable on days off for a long time, just because we are shift workers why should we be expected to keep the organisation afloat on RDO's.

I could work every day of the week if I so desired, but guess what, fatigue management ASA style is a sham.

This ATC now has a life.
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Old 27th Dec 2007, 12:27
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Curious.

Based on previous posts I thought Wellconcerned was within the inner circle at ASA, good buddies with the Kiwi and game show host.

Now I'm convinced.
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Old 27th Dec 2007, 13:58
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This thread is probably a great recruitment tool for the Middle East control providers....

Thank you wellconcerned, truly, wee need all the bodies that we can get

to all the overworked Aussie controlers out there, here is a copy of our roster...
MMAANNROOO
M= 0630 til 1430
A= 1430 til 2230
N= 2230 til 0630

If I am not mistaken, all three ME countries "big kids" (area controllers) work similar rosters.
They are the best rosters that I have worked in 26 years...(except for the old outstations where we didn't do doggos)
We (UAE control) also get paid overtime, and get time in lieu for working on Public Holidays vice any additional payment (GCAA staff, Serco get more leave guaranteed and don't get the additional PHs)

Your days off are yours...swap a couple of shifts, and you can fly off to just about anywhere in Europe, the subcontinent and Africa. but if you prefer to stay in OZ...turn the phone off!
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Old 27th Dec 2007, 14:42
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When I first read wellconcerned's moronic post my first reaction was to reach for my moderators light saber and banish him to an alternative reality.

Then I saw Odie Juan Karaoke's wonderful reply and decided you guys can deal with him adequately all by yourselves.

I just REALLY hope he is in fact AsA 'management' and will reap that which he sows here when 27 more ATCOs race off to the ME

Did I hear right recently fellas...90% payrise recently in DXB ATC?
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Old 28th Dec 2007, 04:00
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Odi Juan Karoake

Mate, that was seriously funny (and made the point).

Was that alcohol induced?

WELLCONCERNED.....

Last edited by Track Coastal; 28th Dec 2007 at 12:16.
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Old 28th Dec 2007, 10:30
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Call in the Federal Police? Oh please, bring it on...

But you just might want to warn certain Line Managers so that they can get some legal advice... and legal representation... before the boys in blue arrive.

Last time I checked, False Pretences and Creating a False Belief were Criminal Offences.


...and on the subject of living in the Middle East, Monsieur Le Duck has written it to perfection.

My experience... life is rich in culture, surrounded by interesting, intelligent, fun people successful in life in many different ways. I've never worked a better roster in my whole ATC career and I'm healthier and happier for it. And yes, my Net Income-after-Expenses more than doubled after stepping off the plane in this golden land... oh... and did I mention? I don't pay income tax... because there isn't any.
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Old 28th Dec 2007, 15:41
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hey Quokka!

That will be monsieur le canard to you!

See you on the doggo tonight...then another one tomorrow and 6 days off....rostered days off mind you, try getting that back in OZ
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Old 28th Dec 2007, 21:27
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Much Ado

Much Ado, the Dubai guys didn't really get a 90% payrise.
It was about a 70% of their basic pay, which makes up only a part of their total package.
Mind you, they are now on 209,160 Aussie dollars, tax free...even with the shocking conversion rate out of the yankee dollar

There are probably a few overworked Ausie approach guys out there that wouldn't mind that kind of pay packet (hey all you guys in Perth!)
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Old 28th Dec 2007, 22:12
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Perspective

I just want to put this into perspective from a conspiracy point of view.

Since before the last EBA negotiations, when TFN first came to the job, Civil Air has been warning of the impending staffing shortages. This was done through correspondence, and also at high level face to face meetings. The response from AsA was always, "Don't tell us how to run our business, we will take care of it, we are on top of it."

Despite Civil Airs' repeated warnings, almost nothing and certainly not enough has been done to increase staff.

And that is the main point, increase staff.

Asa has a policy of training just enough staff to replace what they believe will be the retirements in the next 12 months. If they believe 30 people will retire next year then they will train 30 new recruits. Of course, the problem is not all of those recruits will rate. Getting quality recruits is another topic in itself.

Then take into account people just leaving because they are sick of being mistreated, sick of doing the job, going overseas, retiring early, deciding on a career change etc, etc.

So we have the problem of not replacing what is now becoming a wave of resignations and retirements, and no allowance for well documented increases in traffic.

Now, all of a sudden, it is all the Air Traffic Controllers fault for deliberately trying to sabotage the system. Give me break.

TFN and his cohorts have let this system run into the ground, over several years. They are the ones that will ultimately have to bear responsibility.
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Old 28th Dec 2007, 23:55
  #132 (permalink)  

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Well, I guess it's not too late to withdraw my application....
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Old 29th Dec 2007, 02:50
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry to sound like Dick Smith but I am led to believe that ASA used to use a retirement age of 50 (not that most went)to forward plan on staffing, it was noted that people were staying on longer and so lately they began using 55 This looked better on the books, less staff = less wages. Management looked clever as wages went down and traffic went up and up. Doing more with less.
Controllers at the workface and Civilair could see a looming crisis years ago.Management got LARGE bonuses and referred to their infallible model to avoid doing anything . Management, at the level that saw what was happening, were loath to rock the boat, due to the shoot the messenger mentality at ASA.
Upper management believe they have controllers in 'golden' handcuffs and that we,like them, are only motivated by money. They haven't looked around to see that in real wage terms we have been going backwards for ten years.
So then what happened?
Several factors including the growth of the stockmarket, astute investing, the age profiles, and benefits of the CSS super scheme put older controllers in the position of accessing early retirement. Also due to the reduction of real wages , younger controllers have started to leave.
Finally, long-term disenchantment with TFN and his cronies lining their own pockets whilst crying poor for anyone else, combined with the utter waste and inefficiencies associated with the latest wonder restructure (SDE) , crap rosters,constant calls at home to do O/T to prop up a management induced staffing crisis, the AWA/ALM debacle(people with 1 -2 years experience becoming supervisors as long as they signed AWA's), and the huge growth in O/S money and people are walking out the door.
There is a world wide shortage of controllers. That is why we are interested in the next EBA, if there is isn't a big improvement many can just walk out the door and work somewhere else.
What is happening now, IS NOT some quasi industrial action, controllers can not physically prop up the lack of staffing anymore( too few controllers) . It is that bad.
Management , TFN and K Mc, have finally faced the truth and are asking for our help in keeping the airspace open. This is something we have already been doing for years whilst asking them to increase staffing. They have accused us, et al Civilair, for years of having some industrial agenda in our complaints to increasing staffing. You reap what you sow.
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Old 29th Dec 2007, 05:07
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Ah, Mr Duck,

Nice to see you're working in a cushy little Muddle East number.

I have worked in a few 'not so comfortable' operations there - I have, through the years, worked in Oman, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Qatar and Saudi. I have worked for PanAm, Serco, Johnson Control Industries, ICAO [in Saudi] and direct to the Qatar DGCA. I have worked tower, approach and en-route. So I know a 'little' about 'life' in the Muddle East, and how fickle pay and conditions can be - and quickly it can go sour when another company, or another country runs short of controllers and the 'exodus is on'. I also know that as comfortable a lifestyle as it appears, it can go sour VERY quickly - try taking a camera into the ops room, and watch how quickly you get deported.

Watch how quickly the tax man springs on you when you return if you have not been REAL careful in how you structure your affairs in Australia. Non-residency for tax purposes can be REAL tricky.

Watch how veangeful Airservices can be when you come back, cap in hand, looking for a job - better have contingency plans in place.

So, anyone thinking of leaving Australia's fair shores should be just a little bit wary of the 'it's a wonderful life' hype. Yes, it can be, but I can put you in touch with several close colleagues who were thoroughly screwed over in their Muddle East contracts.

Regarding ATC staffing here in Australia - you have all seen my previous postings on this subject [not on this thread - you guys are just TOO easy to wind up!!]. I agree that controllers should not have to work the inordinate amount of overtime and EDs you do - and I agree that the training has been left in such an abysmal state that it will be almost impossible to recover.

I'm well aware of [and well concerned about] Kinny's predisposition to changing the work ethos of ATCs - especially the notion of a common 'doggo' rating, so that full endorsements are not required to man parallel sectors when 'the machine does the work for you anyway'.

I'm not saying it's not a valid concept - but it needs to be introduced as part of a complete restructuring of ATC working conditions - and NOT as a means to fill rostering gaps that have been created by complete management incompetence.

Anyway - good to see I'm still able to pull your levers from time to time [and yes, the Muddle East experience above IS genuine].
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Old 29th Dec 2007, 05:31
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And then the Airservices CEO will whine "It's not my fault. When I took over I thought I was getting command of the pride of the global air navigation service providers fleet - the mighty "Starship Airservices". I plotted out (with my handpicked bridge team) a wondrously wonderful voyage to the star system called 'Service Delivery Environment'. Little did I know that when I called for Warp Factor 9 the Warp Drive would emit a loud, wet fart and blow up in a cloud of TIBA smoke and cascading essential services shutdowns. My predecessors actually left me in charge of the busted-ar$e 'Spacewreck Airservices' ***snivel, whimper, dribble***
I want to thank you for a good chuckle. It seems this is exactly what he said.....just with different words.
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Old 29th Dec 2007, 06:02
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Weelconcerned...welcome back!

I have worked in a few 'not so comfortable' operations there - I have, through the years, worked in Oman, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Qatar and Saudi. I have worked for PanAm, Serco, Johnson Control Industries, ICAO [in Saudi] and direct to the Qatar DGCA. I have worked tower, approach and en-route. So I know a 'little' about 'life' in the Muddle East, and how fickle pay and conditions can be - and quickly it can go sour when another company, or another country runs short of controllers and the 'exodus is on'. I also know that as comfortable a lifestyle as it appears, it can go sour VERY quickly - try taking a camera into the ops room, and watch how quickly you get deported.
Nice to hear that you have all that experience, give me a PM and we can chat... I have been here 10 years now in 2 of those places you mentioned, we must have mutual friends.
Regarding the photos in the ops room...I regularly take photos and so do many of my workmates...not just with a mobile phone camera either

Over the past couple of years, the "exodus is on" has spawned fairly impressive pay rises, and will continue to do so as the outrageous growth in traffic continues.

Thanks for the tax advice, I have a very good accountant and I am still undecided whether or not I want to return to Oz to live.
Having another passport is a real bonus.

Watch how veangeful Airservices can be when you come back, cap in hand, looking for a job - better have contingency plans in place.
Have already seen it...but these guys that are currently in positions of power will not be there that long. Not that I ever wish to work back in OZ. I have too many friends being f***ed over by everyone from their line managers to the CEO of the company to even consider it.
I figure, seriously now, that in a year or so, AsA's new management will be contacting just about everyone with ATC/FSO experience wherever they are in the world and offering enormous wads of cash to come and work.
Don't think it will happen? Look at what has happened in Norway. Management took after the AsA model of management, made some serioulsy stupid decisions and pi$$ed off their workforce.
The workforce responded by walking out the door...staffing crisis naturally occurs.
Norwegian government takes an interest in what is occurring and sacks the top end of their management team. New guy put in place to unf**k the system.
He does that by telling the controllers that they are the most valuable commodity that they have and starts giving them payrises.
He personally contacts all the Norwegians overseas, mainly Dubai, Ab Dab and Muscat and asks them to come back, he will pick up all the bills for the move and pay out any bonds that they may incur by leaving a contract early.
Check out how much they get paid now, with another big rise due this March.
That is why there is going to be a shortage in the ME...That is why there will be big rises here to retain and attract staff.

I can put you in touch with several close colleagues who were thoroughly screwed over in their Muddle East contracts.
And I can put you in touch with a lot more...current controllers, that have, and are doing very well, thank you very much.

Anyway - good to see I'm still able to pull your levers from time to time [and yes, the Muddle East experience above IS genuine].
Go for it...I love a good debate, its like fencing (that'll be the sword-fighting stuff, not banging in pickets) with an unarmed man
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Old 29th Dec 2007, 07:13
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wellconcerned,

I don't know if you've noticed, but there's a Dr. Jekyl & Mr Hyde thing going on with you posts. That last one was no where near as insulting, defamatory and ill-informed as your previous ones. Do you have one more than one person writing under your username?
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Old 29th Dec 2007, 09:24
  #138 (permalink)  
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I have to be careful here as last time I spoke about the Middle East on an Australian Thread I was banned. So be careful guys.

All I want to say Well Concerned is that I have been here in the pit for over 5 years and things have changed a great deal. Whereas it used to be a real chore to live here, now you can get everything you can get at home, and you can live a life which is different but in many ways the same as what you would live at home.

As Duck said the roster here is the best one I have ever worked, and if you want to you can do some overtime at 2,000 dirhams a pop (700 Aussie dollars tax free, off course minus the $50 Mixed grill you buy for the boys at work (Thanks Duck ))

Have taken the kids and parents etc all into the ops room and they all took photos, sat at the console etc. Been here over 5 years and yet to see anyone deported at or away from work.

Glad I left ASA five years ago. Am working my backside off in the hope that if I ever go back I don't have to go back as a floor controller. The way they are being treated is an absolute disgrace and hopefully one day, there will be a whole lot of incompetent pen pushers, who became managers purely to get away from traffic since they couldn't separate their butt cheeks, all line up at the dole office hoping to get a management job at the local Safeway.

Good luck guys, you all deserve better.
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Old 29th Dec 2007, 20:05
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Sorry Diving Duck - can't do PMs - I took up flying for a living after ATC [some say I saw the light - others said other things!] and current employer has a rather nasty habit of deeply vetting e-mail for various reasons. Glad to hear life has improved in the ME. I had a friend who had lived with his family in Muscat for 10 years - inadvertently took a photo of the [armed!] military liason officer in the ops room - was deported within 48 hours. Had an aquaintence [he wasn't there long enough to become a friend] in Abu Dhabi - his wife complained about the early morning call to prayer - it was waking her young baby - they we deported that evening. Still suggest you be cautious.

Undervalued ATC - well spotted. As I said to DD, I love to wind you guys up - you bite SO HARD it makes me p*ss myself laughing. Do you know how many times I sat of 'your side' of the argument as a controller, and listened to the rhetoric about 'overpaid and underworked'. I like to stir the hornet's nest every now and again to see how much paranoia remains in the system.

PPruNe is a rumour network - an agony aunt column. I know from recent experience that only one person at Airsevices 'officially' vets the site, and I know from not so recent experience that only a VERY SMALL fraction of the identified discontent manages to find its way to senior management. They are too preoccupied with 'more important' matters [bonuses, etc] to worry about 'apparent whinging and griping' on a rumour site.
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Old 29th Dec 2007, 21:44
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WELLCONCERNED 15th August 2007, 20:51
My source says both the CEO - AND GM-ATC are leaving before the end of this year - regardless of election outcome [CEO had had about enough of the organisation this time last year!].
. Less than 40hours left! . or was that just a woof-in-the-breeze wind-up too?
I love to wind you guys up - you bite SO HARD it makes me p*ss myself laughing.
you, TOOL, are the only one laughing at such a serious situation!
.
.
. howbout' you run off and piss yourself elsewhere! .... leave this issue to adults!!!!
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