Mega Merged: AsA ATC staffing levels
Most Oz ATC rosters are only valid at the moment due to variations from POR agreed to by a majority of the people on the roster.
These agreements contravene POR
These variations range from shifts exceeding 7 hours to rosters aquitting over 50 weeks.
8 hour shifts were available under "teams".
This used to mean team days[admin, refresher training, input into procedures, etc], one team with one dedicated team leader.
ASA has now deemed that when you start a shift today, you and the people you are working with are a team and therefore working in a team environment.
I can see ASA saying that we don't need POR anymore as most of our staff don't wan't to work rosters that comply to them anyway.
Shooting ourselvses in the foot IMNSHO.
AA
These agreements contravene POR
These variations range from shifts exceeding 7 hours to rosters aquitting over 50 weeks.
8 hour shifts were available under "teams".
This used to mean team days[admin, refresher training, input into procedures, etc], one team with one dedicated team leader.
ASA has now deemed that when you start a shift today, you and the people you are working with are a team and therefore working in a team environment.
I can see ASA saying that we don't need POR anymore as most of our staff don't wan't to work rosters that comply to them anyway.
Shooting ourselvses in the foot IMNSHO.
AA
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UAE
Age: 63
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
quokka
mate....nail, head, bang on!
Could you imagine how lonely it would get in the middle east with one of those ridiculous Oz rosters?
Management would be talking to themselves within a week, as NO ONE would work them.
Exactly why the OZ ATC fraternity has put up with them for this long beggars belief.
Could you imagine how lonely it would get in the middle east with one of those ridiculous Oz rosters?
Management would be talking to themselves within a week, as NO ONE would work them.
Exactly why the OZ ATC fraternity has put up with them for this long beggars belief.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Mauritius,soon or latter
Posts: 542
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did search trough this part of pprune and I must confirm that I am little confused.
Australian ATCOs claims that there is huge shortage of ATCOs ,sometimes you declare status of controlled areas as G class due to shortage , but your company sends ATCOs to some USA towers for contract job?
Let me correct if I do not understand that issue properly
Australian ATCOs claims that there is huge shortage of ATCOs ,sometimes you declare status of controlled areas as G class due to shortage , but your company sends ATCOs to some USA towers for contract job?
Let me correct if I do not understand that issue properly
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SLUGFEST The average ATC punter wants to work "Evening, Afternoon, Morning and Doggo in 3.5 days because it maximises the time off.
SINGAPURCANAC: Australian ATCOs claims that there is huge shortage of ATCOs ,sometimes you declare status of controlled areas as G class due to shortage , but your company sends ATCOs to some USA towers for contract job?
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Oztraylia
Age: 53
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not saying it would work at AsA, but I like the roster I worked in the RAAF. 4 afternoons, 2 off, 4 mornings, 2 off etc. I know there is at least one more shift to consider but how would working the same shift on all 4 days pan out. When I was in the police force you rotated shifts around but the doggo would be the same for 6 days running and then 4 days off and back on to an afternoon. Any comments on how working the same shift for the 4 days looks to you guys is welcome.
Ta
Ta
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Melbourne
Age: 57
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FGS,
I did the rostering for my group for quite a while. I had tried on numerous occasions to suggest there was a better way of working shift work. From block rosters as you suggest above to semi blocks. It was overwhelmingly voted down, and that was just a trial
Your average ATC will not budge from the evening, arvo, morn, dog quick change nightmare that we work.
They will though, continue to whinge and whine to anyone who will listen about how fatigued they are. This is the height of hipocrisy
I did the rostering for my group for quite a while. I had tried on numerous occasions to suggest there was a better way of working shift work. From block rosters as you suggest above to semi blocks. It was overwhelmingly voted down, and that was just a trial
Your average ATC will not budge from the evening, arvo, morn, dog quick change nightmare that we work.
They will though, continue to whinge and whine to anyone who will listen about how fatigued they are. This is the height of hipocrisy
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Melbourne
Age: 57
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Often finish at 2300, two days off and back at 0530.
Add overtime and hours have to be hacked off here and there to keep it legal - which by the way is 80.5 because some bean counter decided this rounds down to 80.
Don't work overtime
This doesn't even have to be seen as a 'political' statement or 'industrial action'. Just don't work overtime.
Most of my shifts are 8.5 hours. Close to 50% of my shifts are consecutive after a 10 hour break.
This is definitely the worst roster I have ever worked in my 10+ years here.
I am tired and cranky much of the time.
And this is with the 'protection' of POR.
If we lose POR and move to FAID based rosters, my decision on taking up an offer overseas will be easy
Do yourself a favour, go o/s don't just threaten to. DO IT!
From today's crikey.com.au
Air Traffic Control crisis: you ain't seen nothing yet
An air traffic control insider writes:
The staffing number issue in ATC is going to get worse before it gets better. There are 64 controllers currently over 55; the notional retirement age is 52. There are another 80 over 52, so 130+ over the notional retirement age.
With an expectation of "trainees" in the system equalling the controllers licensed; this is a fallacy traditionally there is a 55% pass rate. So reading the attached document, there are expected to be 120 retirements minimum in the next 3 years, and 204 trainees entering, at 55% pass rate that's just 112 replacements. So recruits won't exceed retirements and that's before anyone packs their bags for greener pastures overseas.
If they truly mean taking 180+ recruits in one year (to get 96 rated), well, it's simply unsustainable so they don't mean that; we can't train people that fast.
Look at the Sydney figures it takes 6 months minimum to get rated there an a maximum of 6 trainees at a time (otherwise there aren't enough seats for the trainees); 60 people over 45. If we started training full time now in Sydney we might just exceed the retirement rate, but unlikely. There are no ab initio recruits in Sydney; there aren't likely to be in the near future.
A break down of the sick leave and overtime figures is interesting. 40 odd people have been unavailable in those figures for the full year, illnesses like cancer, stress leave etc. So 40 X 47 working weeks, x 36 hours a week, divided by 7.5 hrs (average shift length) or some 9024 days. So the overall sick leave is really 14419-9024 = 5395 days / 971 staff = 5.56 days each; hardly a massive problem.
Overtime however is conducted by rated ATCs only. 971-106 non operational supervisors = 865 Operational ATCs. OT hours 90504 / 865 = 104.62 hours or 13.95 days each; there are many ATCs who chose not to work any overtime, seeking work / life balance.
This whole thing is a house of cards. There have been 98 closures or disruptions to normal service in June 08; it's going to get worse.
Peter Gibson from CASA was quoted in the media stating that Airservices had taken 100 overseas ATC recruits; there is a big difference between 37 and 100. Has CASA dropped the ball again and played lip services to it's regulatory responsibilities, believing what the ASA spin doctors say?
I have been in for 18 years, morale has never been so low, people have never before explored OS options with such gusto; Germany, Ireland, Dubai, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi have recruited and are still targeting Australians although ASA doesn't know it yet, it's going to get worse; there are at least 20 more out the door before Christmas that I personally know about. I believe the only way out is to change CEOs (this one has lost us) and to give proper consideration at 'retaining' the existing staff; otherwise it's likely to be last one out turn off the lights. People have had enough and then had enough of being pillared by there employer with subtle hints of industrial action or McGuaran's statements at the Senate estimates like "they're taking you for a ride" regarding sick leave.
An air traffic control insider writes:
The staffing number issue in ATC is going to get worse before it gets better. There are 64 controllers currently over 55; the notional retirement age is 52. There are another 80 over 52, so 130+ over the notional retirement age.
With an expectation of "trainees" in the system equalling the controllers licensed; this is a fallacy traditionally there is a 55% pass rate. So reading the attached document, there are expected to be 120 retirements minimum in the next 3 years, and 204 trainees entering, at 55% pass rate that's just 112 replacements. So recruits won't exceed retirements and that's before anyone packs their bags for greener pastures overseas.
If they truly mean taking 180+ recruits in one year (to get 96 rated), well, it's simply unsustainable so they don't mean that; we can't train people that fast.
Look at the Sydney figures it takes 6 months minimum to get rated there an a maximum of 6 trainees at a time (otherwise there aren't enough seats for the trainees); 60 people over 45. If we started training full time now in Sydney we might just exceed the retirement rate, but unlikely. There are no ab initio recruits in Sydney; there aren't likely to be in the near future.
A break down of the sick leave and overtime figures is interesting. 40 odd people have been unavailable in those figures for the full year, illnesses like cancer, stress leave etc. So 40 X 47 working weeks, x 36 hours a week, divided by 7.5 hrs (average shift length) or some 9024 days. So the overall sick leave is really 14419-9024 = 5395 days / 971 staff = 5.56 days each; hardly a massive problem.
Overtime however is conducted by rated ATCs only. 971-106 non operational supervisors = 865 Operational ATCs. OT hours 90504 / 865 = 104.62 hours or 13.95 days each; there are many ATCs who chose not to work any overtime, seeking work / life balance.
This whole thing is a house of cards. There have been 98 closures or disruptions to normal service in June 08; it's going to get worse.
Peter Gibson from CASA was quoted in the media stating that Airservices had taken 100 overseas ATC recruits; there is a big difference between 37 and 100. Has CASA dropped the ball again and played lip services to it's regulatory responsibilities, believing what the ASA spin doctors say?
I have been in for 18 years, morale has never been so low, people have never before explored OS options with such gusto; Germany, Ireland, Dubai, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi have recruited and are still targeting Australians although ASA doesn't know it yet, it's going to get worse; there are at least 20 more out the door before Christmas that I personally know about. I believe the only way out is to change CEOs (this one has lost us) and to give proper consideration at 'retaining' the existing staff; otherwise it's likely to be last one out turn off the lights. People have had enough and then had enough of being pillared by there employer with subtle hints of industrial action or McGuaran's statements at the Senate estimates like "they're taking you for a ride" regarding sick leave.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: International
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fatigue and its mis-management
CASA knows (from the plethora of research into fatigue management they have commissioned) that compressed rosters (L A D M N - where the break between shifts progressively decreases until the final morning doggo quick change) are far more taxing on the employee than expanded rosters that start with a doggo and end with a late shift. Since CASA's role is about risk management in a safety critical industry, it would appear that their lack of action could be regarded as 'unconscionable' when tested against the law of torts 'reasonable man' criteria.
I am by no means an advocate for any regulation that constricts rostering by quite supposedly 'sound' fatigue management criteria (eg max length shifts, minimum length breaks, maximum numbers of shifts in a row, etc). In many cases such criteria have been demonstrated to be capable of being abused by both employee and management alike. Everyone knows what the contributors to fatigue are. We even know that there are different types of fatigue. What is lacking is clear regulation that requires both parties (employee and management) to adhere to defensible practices that ensure no fatigued person is working or is required to work in a safety critical position. Or if required to work in such a state, there are adequate additional defences to protect the integrity (read safety) of the system - this is risk management - after all, air traffic control and flying or repairing an aircraft is ALL about risk management.
The model currently in use by Airservices (which incorporates some aspects of FAID) should be seen as a first step towards such a Utopia - not as the final answer. Someone earlier reminded us that we are actually human beings and therefore susceptible to impacts of all the social activities that humans attract. I am sure some will immediately think of partying to excess, but what I am referring to is typical ordinary life away from (and even in) the workplace - family life and all the trials and tribulations that entails, sport to combat the ever worsening human conditioning, simply driving to and from wherever, grappling with a work related issue, etc. All of these factors should find their way into a fatigue model.
Others have suggested that some work is more fatiguing than other work. Probably some truth in that too but I am not sure that if researched properly, it will be the answer expected. How fatiguing is it to be alert when there is little or no traffic?
Regrettably, a large problem with Airservices' FRMS is that those implementing it have lost sight of the real objective - ie risk management, not just putting a bum on a seat. This lack of proper understanding and proper implementation should not be the reason it is discarded, but should be the lesson for moving forward and developing a more improved FRMS where everyone (employee and management alike) embrace the concept of risk management rather than concentrating entirely on service delivery - what quality is the service if that service is NOT managing the very real risks that abound both in and out of the workplace?
Let’s go back to the report that was provided to Airservices during the development of the FRMS and re-examine the responses to the issues raised therein - making sure that the implementation focus is shifted from filling a vacant seat to addressing the delivery of a quality service with an acceptable risk. Risk in this context should NOT be limited to the risks associated with a collision but expanded to include risks within and outside the workplace, risk to future health, risk to family stability, etc. (I am sure the many creative among you will recognise other risks that should be included in the melting pot. Maybe not at the second step of the FRMS evolution, but at a later step. Perhaps someone should even begin to map those future steps so everyone can see where it is headed (wouldn't that be innovative?)
I guess I have provided sufficient fuel to the debate for now, to ensure some criticism.
Over....
I am by no means an advocate for any regulation that constricts rostering by quite supposedly 'sound' fatigue management criteria (eg max length shifts, minimum length breaks, maximum numbers of shifts in a row, etc). In many cases such criteria have been demonstrated to be capable of being abused by both employee and management alike. Everyone knows what the contributors to fatigue are. We even know that there are different types of fatigue. What is lacking is clear regulation that requires both parties (employee and management) to adhere to defensible practices that ensure no fatigued person is working or is required to work in a safety critical position. Or if required to work in such a state, there are adequate additional defences to protect the integrity (read safety) of the system - this is risk management - after all, air traffic control and flying or repairing an aircraft is ALL about risk management.
The model currently in use by Airservices (which incorporates some aspects of FAID) should be seen as a first step towards such a Utopia - not as the final answer. Someone earlier reminded us that we are actually human beings and therefore susceptible to impacts of all the social activities that humans attract. I am sure some will immediately think of partying to excess, but what I am referring to is typical ordinary life away from (and even in) the workplace - family life and all the trials and tribulations that entails, sport to combat the ever worsening human conditioning, simply driving to and from wherever, grappling with a work related issue, etc. All of these factors should find their way into a fatigue model.
Others have suggested that some work is more fatiguing than other work. Probably some truth in that too but I am not sure that if researched properly, it will be the answer expected. How fatiguing is it to be alert when there is little or no traffic?
Regrettably, a large problem with Airservices' FRMS is that those implementing it have lost sight of the real objective - ie risk management, not just putting a bum on a seat. This lack of proper understanding and proper implementation should not be the reason it is discarded, but should be the lesson for moving forward and developing a more improved FRMS where everyone (employee and management alike) embrace the concept of risk management rather than concentrating entirely on service delivery - what quality is the service if that service is NOT managing the very real risks that abound both in and out of the workplace?
Let’s go back to the report that was provided to Airservices during the development of the FRMS and re-examine the responses to the issues raised therein - making sure that the implementation focus is shifted from filling a vacant seat to addressing the delivery of a quality service with an acceptable risk. Risk in this context should NOT be limited to the risks associated with a collision but expanded to include risks within and outside the workplace, risk to future health, risk to family stability, etc. (I am sure the many creative among you will recognise other risks that should be included in the melting pot. Maybe not at the second step of the FRMS evolution, but at a later step. Perhaps someone should even begin to map those future steps so everyone can see where it is headed (wouldn't that be innovative?)
I guess I have provided sufficient fuel to the debate for now, to ensure some criticism.
Over....
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Chad
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heard an interview on ABC news radio this afternoon with Peter McGuane re the reported airspace shutdown "NW of Canberra" overnight. Peter must have thought all his Xmas' had come at once.
The interviewer [lady] unwittingly played a real 'Dorothy Dix' role, with appropriately placed "oh my gosh", and "do the passengers know what's happening when they board" etc - she sounded genuinely shocked and amazed and incredulous.
I though Peter handled the interview well - left it to the interviewer to make the insinuations - and if this interview doesn't get someone's [read - MINISTER's] attention then I don't know what will.
I'll try and find the transcript. Well done, Peter!
The interviewer [lady] unwittingly played a real 'Dorothy Dix' role, with appropriately placed "oh my gosh", and "do the passengers know what's happening when they board" etc - she sounded genuinely shocked and amazed and incredulous.
I though Peter handled the interview well - left it to the interviewer to make the insinuations - and if this interview doesn't get someone's [read - MINISTER's] attention then I don't know what will.
I'll try and find the transcript. Well done, Peter!
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Adrift upon the tides of fate
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
More mainstream attention in the Age.
http://http://www.theage.com.au/news...282699633.html
Not exactly a hard-hitting expose, but it must be getting harder and harder to hide for the people at the top. Sooner or later, someone might ask them the right questions.
http://http://www.theage.com.au/news...282699633.html
Not exactly a hard-hitting expose, but it must be getting harder and harder to hide for the people at the top. Sooner or later, someone might ask them the right questions.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Golden Road to Samarkand
Posts: 443
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ducky... definitely... you wouldn't get the locals to turn up for work on an Australian roster... and if it was in the contract, not a single ex-pat controller would sign.
Oh, and we all know that any ACC in this part of the world would become a Ghost Town within days of Airservices Australia gaining a contract to provide a service (sic). Don't waste your time in this region Airservices... the international world of ATC is a lot smaller than you realize... and your reputation precedes you.
Ps. How are the greener pastures? I hear that they were expecting a 6ft blonde Latvian babe instead...
Oh, and we all know that any ACC in this part of the world would become a Ghost Town within days of Airservices Australia gaining a contract to provide a service (sic). Don't waste your time in this region Airservices... the international world of ATC is a lot smaller than you realize... and your reputation precedes you.
Ps. How are the greener pastures? I hear that they were expecting a 6ft blonde Latvian babe instead...
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UAE
Age: 63
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Quokka!!
To mis-quote Gordon Gekko....Green is good!
As for their expectations ...I'm about 6 foot...the rest of the stuff may be a bit hard to hide (espeically the blonde bit) although I have been called a big girl several times
As for their expectations ...I'm about 6 foot...the rest of the stuff may be a bit hard to hide
(espeically the blonde bit) although I have been called a big girl several times
Last edited by divingduck; 9th Jul 2008 at 09:16. Reason: forgot the big girl bit...
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UAE
Age: 63
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sydney departures
We over here in greener pastures have heard that up to 15 controllers in Sydney have resigned to go to the new Jebel Ali airport
Any thruth to that rumour?
Any thruth to that rumour?
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
and over in the thread on TIBA, it seems Crikey.com has got wind of CASA's 1st inspection of TIBA procedures.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/atc-iss...ml#post4242328
http://www.pprune.org/forums/atc-iss...ml#post4242328
Join Date: May 2002
Location: australia
Posts: 606
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Duck ,
Its just starting, after ASAs latest effort, 2 this week I know of are off to Jebel Ali. Others have offers and starting dates but have yet to let ASA know, I think the mutual lack of respect will mean that resignations will be very short notice. If ASA don't extract the digit and start with some meaningful negotiations very,very soon the gates will open. Also,1 just left for NZ (family reasons) and another resignation takes effect in a week (NZ, paycut but outdoorsy type)
All the talk around the centres is where have/are you applying. I am looking to Europe personally, and have been hearing rumours that Eurocontrol may be recruiting towards the end of the year. Ireland (maybe they've finished?) and Germany (ATC and training) are other options.
Its just starting, after ASAs latest effort, 2 this week I know of are off to Jebel Ali. Others have offers and starting dates but have yet to let ASA know, I think the mutual lack of respect will mean that resignations will be very short notice. If ASA don't extract the digit and start with some meaningful negotiations very,very soon the gates will open. Also,1 just left for NZ (family reasons) and another resignation takes effect in a week (NZ, paycut but outdoorsy type)
All the talk around the centres is where have/are you applying. I am looking to Europe personally, and have been hearing rumours that Eurocontrol may be recruiting towards the end of the year. Ireland (maybe they've finished?) and Germany (ATC and training) are other options.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: On a Ship Near You
Posts: 787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe the Irish permanent jobs are being finalised; the contract positions need to be filled by about Jan 09. Germany sounds like a shambles, no straight answers there I'm afraid, and a lousy offer to boot. Jebel Ali will be taking many Australians.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are not only ATC shortages from what I hear. Other operational areas are well and truly in survival mode.
If you can believe it, an Ausfic staffer walked in today an resigned on the spot. That surely will put more pressure on the VHF Flightwatch backup ghosting bullsh!t.
I don't know how many staff Ausfic is down but I did see a NOTAM on the weekend saying that international HF communications were not available for a period. If they are doing that, then they **really** must be down in numbers.
WHO THE FIRE TRUCK IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS???
The staff cannot be to blame as they don't dictate recruitment and redundancies but yet they have to pick up the pieces.
If the staff screw up, there is ESIR and god knows what else....but stuff up the staffing in such a fashion that it will take AT LEAST 3 years to merely put a bandaid on and not a bloody "manager" is held accountable.
Almost no matter how many staff is recruited, it certainly will NOT fix the matter because of the pending retirements across the system will more that suck up the new bodies.
This situation is nothing but the result of reprehensible conduct by supposedly a "professional" organisation.....and I use the term "organisation" loosely......VERY F%$#in LOOSELY!!!
oh, and of course all this took place without TFN knowing anything about it so it could not POSSIBLY be his fault.
If you can believe it, an Ausfic staffer walked in today an resigned on the spot. That surely will put more pressure on the VHF Flightwatch backup ghosting bullsh!t.
I don't know how many staff Ausfic is down but I did see a NOTAM on the weekend saying that international HF communications were not available for a period. If they are doing that, then they **really** must be down in numbers.
WHO THE FIRE TRUCK IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS???
The staff cannot be to blame as they don't dictate recruitment and redundancies but yet they have to pick up the pieces.
If the staff screw up, there is ESIR and god knows what else....but stuff up the staffing in such a fashion that it will take AT LEAST 3 years to merely put a bandaid on and not a bloody "manager" is held accountable.
Almost no matter how many staff is recruited, it certainly will NOT fix the matter because of the pending retirements across the system will more that suck up the new bodies.
This situation is nothing but the result of reprehensible conduct by supposedly a "professional" organisation.....and I use the term "organisation" loosely......VERY F%$#in LOOSELY!!!
oh, and of course all this took place without TFN knowing anything about it so it could not POSSIBLY be his fault.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: All over the place
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2 this week I know of are off to Jebel Ali. Others have offers and starting dates but have yet to let ASA know, I think the mutual lack of respect will mean that resignations will be very short notice. If ASA don't extract the digit and start with some meaningful negotiations very,very soon the gates will open. Also,1 just left for NZ (family reasons) and another resignation takes effect in a week (NZ, paycut but outdoorsy type)
