How can we educate the Public on the Pilot Shortage!

[Charliethewonderdog]

Chaliethewonderdog, what is the outcome you wish to achieve? Educate the public for what reason?

So as to have a balanced argument against the Companies veiw point as to why te SHORTAGE HAS occured. To let the share holders of these companies know how the management has bcaused the Shortage.

I'm actually supportive of aircraft's argument on this one. If you feel that pilots have been screwed, then shame on you. You and every other pilot in Australia could take your services elsewhere if you felt you weren't getting paid enough.

Or we could negotiate a better deal. Would the general public be in favour of guruda pilots, ot 1 to 2 go pilots, Air China Pilots....etc... replacing Australian pilots because we have left for better jobs overseas???

That's not to say I don't support an increase in wages. I do! However, the reason why wages have been so low for years is not the sole blame of airline company execs. They have a job to do and that is to reduce their costs and increase their profits as much as they possibly can. The pilots en masse had very little bargaining power and zero negotiating skills. The corporate execs don't come to work wondering which pilots they can bust down each day.

Who else is to blame then????? I suppose it's not their fault that pilots ARE leaving for overseas for better paying jobs??? by the way the Airlines in Australia are as profitable as any other aviation sector around the world.

(Unfortunately, this isn't a good forum for the airline exec. Any one of them who tried to represent the other side would immediately be on the defensive and his/her argument wouldn't have much opportunity to be heard.)

Maybe because these exec's have been told about the shortage for so long but they didn't believe it and didn't act and they have to defend their actions or lack of actions to the shareholders why nothing was done. re: rex managements spin.
Any exec can came on here and put up an argument. Maybe they haven't got one. To busy lining there own pockets with huge profit bonuses.

"You get what you negotiate!"

hang on what are you saying????? leave or stay????? shall I stay and negotiate or move overseas???

You're in a much better position to negotiate your service fees these days and it's getting more favourable with each day. If you go into a meeting with the intention to be the screwer and not the screwee, I can almost guarantee you'll come out as the victim. Know your price and your worth, leave the malice outside and negotiate as a professional and not as a thug.

Who mentioned screwing any one over???????? We know our price and we are undervalued, the proof of that is simply, THERE IS A PILOT SHORTAGE!!!!!
I dont know who your are but I dont think you added anything to this thread.
What a company like REX refuses to do is to ask it's workers what conditions that they would STAY on with. ??????? to much to ask????

[Placido]

Hi all!

The problem is simply not enough young people are joining the pilot pool. Why? T&C are bad.

The cause? Management wanted more profits AND pilots let it happen.

Now, bean counters don't value something that they don't pay for. The more they pay the more the perceived value of that item.

It is our task to drive our own price up, pilots sell themselves short all the time and then cry about it afterwards.

At your next interview, how much will YOU ask for?

Or will you simply look at the offer?

What is the price of your service?

Have you ever complained about T&C at an interview?

We are to blame for the current situation through our inaction!

WE have to bring change about, not the airlines.

Next time, state your price.

[PlankBlender]

aircraft, stop and think!

Aircraft, so far I have suffered your -- at times painful -- logical hiccups quietly, but the chestnut you came up with now takes the biscuit! Where on earth did you pick up that any industry will pay workers what they can afford?? Excuse my language, but that's bullst!

Pay is in market economies dictated by supply and demand, nothing else. Companies have the interest to reduce cost and increase income and to balance the two, and retaining staff comes under reducing cost and so does paying pilots what companies can get away with based on the supply of pilots (and to a lesser degree their collective bargaining power)!

Now where there is excess supply of pilots (like post 9/11 where global industry capacity was sharply reduced), prices for pilots go down, now that it seems to be swinging the other way, prices/conditions will increase.

Let's try not to make it more complicated, shall we

[Paper Planes]

At your next interview, how much will YOU ask for?

Or will you simply look at the offer?

What is the price of your service?

Have you ever complained about T&C at an interview?

We are to blame for the current situation through our inaction!

WE have to bring change about, not the airlines.

Next time, state your price.

I would love to state my price and tell them what I expect but there is always other pilots who are willing to prostitue themselves in the name of scoring a flying gig. It really ticks me off when I see some pilots do this. It makes it hard to negotiate decent conditions.

As for the public they really don't care about pilots and will only realise we are important when their holidays or weekend plans are messed up.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Originally Posted by PlankBender

Where on earth did you pick up that any industry will pay workers what they can afford?? Excuse my language, but that's bullst!

It begs the question - are you suggesting that any industry will pay workers what they cannot afford?

I would love to state my price and tell them what I expect but there is always other pilots who are willing to prostitue themselves in the name of scoring a flying gig. It really ticks me off when I see some pilots do this. It makes it hard to negotiate decent conditions.

Well it ticks me off to see people telling others what they should work for. If they are happy performing those duties for those wages then that's great.
Everyone has a price at which they would perform a certain job. What you are advocating is that everyone should only do a certain job for the price you would be happy with.
It shouldn't be easy to demand what you want when there are others who want to do the same job. Just like buying homes. If lots of other people want that house it isn't easy to negotiate the terms you want as the owner has other options.

[excellr8]

Lobyists do it all the time. They champion the cause to meet their own ends or their fee payers ends. When your big enough you have a department that does it for you. Case in point Qantas during the APA bid. The pilots of 89 had an up hill battle convincing the public of their cause it's just they where up against a far more powerfull public perception machine.....the government. But this time around during an election if there are 'events' like the NJS dispute it may help highlight how pathetic our conditions are and because during an election most parties want to be you friend, and if there is an issue that either side could get miles out of then this is a vital time start jumping up and down making noises hence a lobby group. It would of been good to discuss this at least a year ago so hopefully an issue like the NJS fight will do it for us this time around. I congratulate the boys and girls who are taking up the issue. It amazes me to read some of the defeatest posts saying tried that been there. It is only through inaction that the whole pilot body in this country is being dictated to by bean counters. Where only worth what we accept.
To conclude the rant one question......why is it we have the AFAP and AIPA and it takes the TWU to get the ball rolling?

[Pass-A-Frozo]

because during an election most parties want to be you friend,

wrong. They want to be the friends of "the general public".

You can pretend to be blind to the effect that industrial action imparts on others but you won't ever stop a member of "the public" coming undone on camera because they missed a critical life event such as their mother passing away because they couldn't get a flight home.

[Charliethewonderdog]

Lobyists do it all the time. They champion the cause to meet their own ends or their fee payers ends. When your big enough you have a department that does it for you. Case in point Qantas during the APA bid. The pilots of 89 had an up hill battle convincing the public of their cause it's just they where up against a far more powerfull public perception machine.....the government. But this time around during an election if there are 'events' like the NJS dispute it may help highlight how pathetic our conditions are and because during an election most parties want to be you friend, and if there is an issue that either side could get miles out of then this is a vital time start jumping up and down making noises hence a lobby group. It would of been good to discuss this at least a year ago so hopefully an issue like the NJS fight will do it for us this time around. I congratulate the boys and girls who are taking up the issue. It amazes me to read some of the defeatest posts saying tried that been there. It is only through inaction that the whole pilot body in this country is being dictated to by bean counters. Where only worth what we accept.
To conclude the rant one question......why is it we have the AFAP and AIPA and it takes the TWU to get the ball rolling?

excellent post

I again and I ask the AFAP to come on down and convince me that I should remain a member!!! tell me what they have achieved during my time as a member to make better conditions for Pilots?????? explain to me why the Aviation award has never had a CPI increase????? Explain to me why they continually offered the Virgin Pilots sub standard deals that the Pilot group continually Knocked back????

Explain to me why the AFAP are as weak as piss???? Why couldn't' they represent the NJ pilots in the same way the TWU has????

Does the AFAP realise that it has basically lost all pilots confidence in it and the ONLY thing that keeps most people members is a loss of licence insurance???

As members we need to clean out the management of this organisation and put in place a team that will represent us.

[Charliethewonderdog]

wrong. They want to be the friends of "the general public".

You can pretend to be blind to the effect that industrial action imparts on others but you won't ever stop a member of "the public" coming undone on camera because they missed a critical life event such as their mother passing away because they couldn't get a flight home.

Well tell them to catch a bus. If the public want one of the most relaible and safest aviation regions in the world they better start paying for it, or they will be alot more funerals then just their mother.

Why is it that the workers get the blame for industrial action???????

You beat that drum all you want about the effect on the public, but the ball is in our court now, and Western Australians better stay home instead of going on 2 week tour on the mines where they are getting paid twice as much as a B scale FO for National Joke if they want to stay home with sick mummy. They have been warned.... glove are on ..... go boys and girls..

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Why is it that the workers get the blame for industrial action???????

You beat that drum all you want about the effect on the public, but the ball is in our court now,

You answered your own question.

"The Public" will only blame one/two people when they don't make their daughter's wedding.

You can't say that " We have people's lives in our hands " as a reason for a payrise and expect the very people who you tell "I own you in the air" that it isn't your fault you didn't fly that day because you want a pay rise.

If you want PIA accept you are f***ing over people who have nothing to do with the entire matter - don't try to tell them you have nothing to do with the fact they aren't flying home that day.

As members we need to clean out the management of this organisation and put in place a team that will represent us.

Yeah well you shouldn't be doing it at the expense of the Australian population.

[Sir Donald]

Simple,if pilots had a body to represent them different story, but we do not.Why?Don't get me started.
Try 60 minutes, if that show is still around maybe it can expose the truth about the state of today's aviation.

[Lodown]

Charliethewonderdog, you’ll just have to excuse me if I’m not fully grasping your argument.

As Placido mentioned, there are other issues to consider than just “management” for a pilot shortage. It takes two to form an employment contract of sorts. An offer is made, there is consideration and there is an acceptance. Are you blaming the person who made the low offer? Should you not be placing a large proportion of blame with the person who willingly chose to accept the low offer?

What’s wrong with pilots leaving to accept positions overseas? It’s the way a free market should work. The same should apply to pilots who want to migrate here. Company executives are under no obligation to employ pilots to keep them from going overseas.

You think you’re undervalued. A fundamental concept of a market economy is that something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. You might think your talents are worth $300,000 per year, but if the highest bidder is only prepared to pay $20,000, then that’s what your skills are worth.

Advertising? At present, difficulty finding experienced pilots and other staff is a company supply issue. Do you think pilots are going to be held responsible for a pilot shortage? All the rhetoric to this stage is from company executives trying to encourage a growth in employee resources and avoid the finger of blame from shareholders. I can’t understand why you want to advertise. Pilots are entering an unprecedented era of great employment opportunities and phenomenal growth potential and you want to fiddle-fart about and present your side of the argument. What do you care if there is a pilot shortage? It should be all good news for you. Get out and make hay while the sun shines and forget about trying to get one over on the company execs. A pilot shortage is their problem to sort out, not yours. Your problem should be trying to make the best of the opportunities available.

[Charliethewonderdog]

Catch a bus....... I have no sympathy for a paying public who complain about the price of Airline tickets that are half as much as they were 15 years ago.

They can also blame the companies!!! can't they especially if they are educated in the reason WHY the industrial action has occurred, which is the Whole point of this thread.

Let the public understand through a media campaign!! again I ask where are you AFAP. Surely my fees over the last ten years would cover a one page spread in the Australia??????? maybe I'll just pay for it myself, anyone else wanna chip in a coupla bucks for some colour???

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Originally Posted by CharlietheWonderDog

Catch a bus....... I have no sympathy for a paying public who complain about the price of Airline tickets that are half as much as they were 15 years ago

Yup.. I reckon that's what you should advertise in The Australian.

[Charliethewonderdog]

Charliethewonderdog, you’ll just have to excuse me if I’m not fully grasping your argument.

My argument is simple. Management has had an oversupply of pilots for ever..... until now. They have abused this.... ok I'll put it in another way..... they have had the luxury of an over supply of skilled labor which has enabled them to set a value on it's employees, they have over the last 20 years continually erroded conditions and pay, aviation is one of the only proffessions that pay has actaully decreased.
Ok I accept the supply and demand argument...

Now for what ever reason...... there is a pilot shortage. We can came up with many reasons why there is a shortage, but surely anyone can see that poor conditions and reduced pay has been a significant reason for this...????

So now it's our turn to use our psoition in the industry to OUR advantage, we are in DEMAND. Now correct me if I'm wrong but if you are in DEMAND doesn't this mean your value would increase????

As Placido mentioned, there are other issues to consider than just “management” for a pilot shortage. It takes two to form an employment contract of sorts. An offer is made, there is consideration and there is an acceptance. Are you blaming the person who made the low offer? Should you not be placing a large proportion of blame with the person who willingly chose to accept the low offer?

Yes I would blame stupid pilots under valueing them selves.

What’s wrong with pilots leaving to accept positions overseas? It’s the way a free market should work. The same should apply to pilots who want to migrate here. Company executives are under no obligation to employ pilots to keep them from going overseas.

There is nothing wrong with pilots accepting positions over seas. But replacing them with pilots from countries with far less standids then us is a road which I think we shouldn'y go down, There is a reason for Australia's safety record.

You think you’re undervalued. A fundamental concept of a market economy is that something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. You might think your talents are worth $300,000 per year, but if the highest bidder is only prepared to pay $20,000, then that’s what your skills are worth.

Ok park your planes up against the fence then, lets see what they are valued at then. A compay like REX is canceling dozen of flights daily. Have they undervalued it's employees???? I think so.

Advertising? At present, difficulty finding experienced pilots and other staff is a company supply issue. Start advertising and the public will see it as a group arguing for the right to a particular position. I can’t understand why you want to advertise. Pilots are entering an unprecedented era of great employment opportunities and growth potential and you want to fiddle-fart about and present your side of the argument. What do you care if there is a pilot shortage? It's should be all good news for you. Get out and make hay while the sun shines and forget about trying to get one over on the company execs. A pilot shortage is their problem to sort out, not yours.

Well the company execs are still trying to get one over us, by trying convince the goverment that they should help finance new pilots through student loans etc... have you heard about the Multi Crew Licence???

You seem pretty happy to see highly skilled, experienced pilots leave for over seas to be replaced by pilots fresh out of school sitting next to a pilt from a third world country...... surely the public, you, me and every one in Australian Aviation should fight for our standard that we are responsible for... lets not let it slip.

[Charliethewonderdog]

Yup.. I reckon that's what you should advertise in The Australian.

yer and we could advertise that they are going to pay around $5 dollars a seat to keep an aussie pilot from leaving over seas.

Lets look at Doctors, now thats a proffession thats got it's **** together.

Why do doctors get paid so much????? It's because they go to uni for 8 years and work really hard....etc.... no it's not.

The AMA in conjunction with the goverment controls HOW many doctors are trained every year, There is ALAWYS a shortage, thus keeping them always in demand.
How many stories a year do you here about that small country town that can't keep a local GP and has to share one with the town next door??? why you ask??? because there is not enough, doctors are not going to want to live in woop woop on the money they are on. They want that house in torak.. and the BMW just doesn't look cool parked next to a ute with a blue heeler on the back out the front of the Birchip shops. The AMA will always make sure there is a shortage??? have you ever heard about an unemployed doctor???

Now along comes me with my Billion dollars, I open up a Unerversity, just for doctors and I start pumping out 100 qualified doctors a month, soon there is more doctors then postitions, and now suddenly doctors are fighting for that job in woop woop and the conditions start to fall. Thats Supply and demand.

[Lodown]

So now it's our turn to use our psoition in the industry to OUR advantage, we are in DEMAND. Now correct me if I'm wrong but if you are in DEMAND doesn't this mean your value would increase????

Yes, it should.

However, your argument has morphed from having a shot at company execs to now one of defending aviation standards. That's a CASA and government issue. Take it up with them.

Well the company execs are still trying to get one over us, by trying convince the goverment that they should help finance new pilots through student loans etc... have you heard about the Multi Crew Licence???

Huh? Okay, you've lost me. And tell me how advertising is going to help here? They're not trying to "get one over us". They're trying to run their business. Nothing more. Get over it. If you have an issue with it, put your price up and stick it to them in the wallets.

[Lodown]

Just read your last post...
So now you want Federal or union control on how many licences are issued? Just what message are "we" supposed to be advertising???

[Charliethewonderdog]

Huh? Okay, you've lost me. And tell me how advertising is going to help here? They're not trying to "get one over us". They're trying to run their business. Nothing more. Get over it. If you have an issue with it, put your price up and stick it to them in the wallets.

Why cant we lobby the government through public opinion so as to stop them from getting a free ride re: overseas workers and pilot loans that out TAXes pay for

[Charliethewonderdog]

Just read your last post...
So now you want Federal or union control on how many licences are issued? Just what are we supposed to be advertising??? Yep! That'll be bound to garner support from the public.

Not at all, but I would like to see the industry be able to support the pilots it has now, so pilots DONT have to move over seas and we dont have imported pilots. Is that too much to ask for.

It seems you are happy to see every pilot in Australia leave for overseas and you would be confortable sitting in a VB or J* seat being piloted by an imported pilot.