NJS Pilots - 97% vote for Protected Industrial Action

[Charliethewonderdog]

So do you think they deposed Saddam to secure more oil or to drive up the price?

ummmm YES. I actaully do.

I can tell you that the owners of NJS would be very aware of what's going on.

...and I'll tell you that you are dead right and they would be b]very concerned.

All I'm saying is that you need to accept that being a pilot is a profession that is always labelled as being overpaid.

All I am saying is this perception should be adrressed in sam way, be it advertising or a media campaign, I know all my friends now now how **** we get paid.

Mainly because if you asked anyone on the street if they would like to be a pilot a good number would say yes.

Not if you explained to them what they had to sacrifice to get that piloting job. Infact if I had my time again it would be a tough decision to do it.

Ask someone if a toilet cleaner should get more money and most will say Yes.

and they do, 100k a year 2 weeks on 1 one week off...... thats if NJ dont leave them on the mine site.

Ask someone if a pilot should get paid more and most would say no.

ask that same person after you have told them what a RFDS pilot earns and what an Ambo earns, then ask them to explain the discrepancy.

Will education help? No unless you can convince people that being a pilot isn't fun.

What normal person would do something for FUN if it meant continually be screwed over, ah yes....... this I agree with you.

Pilots= week as piss.

[Charliethewonderdog]

he only pilots I think are as weak as piss are those that take Industrial Action.

fair enough I respect your position.
But how would you negotiate??? or would you just leave and find another job??


...and I believe the US secured more oil and drove the price up, yes to both.

[Charliethewonderdog]

As a net importer they have no benefit in driving up the price of oil. It hurts their industry.

not if they are off selling the oil around the world

[remoak]

Pass-A-Frozo

Glad you showed up, this thread was getting boring! About time we heard the voice of reason. Not sure how you have the patience to argue with some of your antagonists - bit like arguing with a small child in some cases.

I'll just sit back and watch the fun. It's a bit like watching re-runs on TV - the repeating drama of Aussie pilots self-destructing their careers. Good luck to all!

[Tidbinbilla]

Righto people. This thread is supposed to be about industrial action - let's get back on track or I will delete the thread!

[QFinsider]

sorry PAF your public funded education didn't teach you the language, nor reality..Nonetheless it's you're not your

I am finding the ruling of the commission very interesting. We no longer need to walk into the "workchoices" killing zone, plenty of ways to irritate them.

Tsun Tzu would be proud

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Here's an interesting rumour from last night: apparently the owners of Skippers are bragging about wanting to buy the non red tail part of NJS, what are the chances ?.

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

Thankyou Tidbinbilla for pointing out to one or two individuals that seem to constantly rant about how "right" they are. There are some who see fit to be critical of others actions while being NOWHERE near those that are taking those actions. They throw down threats and imply stupidity from ivory towers. Just coz you yell don't make you right.

Good luck to the NJS mob, try not to be used as pawns in election madness. Keep your conditions reasonable and most thinking australians will understand and support your actions. Make sure you include even the PAF like people and don't marginalise or polarise. Don't burn the bridge. I have first hand experience in dealing with the people you are dealing with now from an industrial relations perspective. Frustrating to say the least. Be patient, speak softly.....

[Moniker]

Ok - I'll bite (pardon the pun) ..

Shed Dog

Skippers wanting to buy the non red tail part of NJS, what are the chances ?.

- of all the people with scope to do it - I'd think SQ would have to be in the box seat down there - whether he actually would though may be another story!

Pass-A-Frozo

Tell them what I want. Negotiate myself. / main key is flexibility - the least flexible party loses

and there I think, is the crux of the matter, not just with these few pilots presently in the lime light - but the entire flying staff for the company.

No-one I know could negotiate on an individual basis when the new AWA's and horizons rolled out (bar one that has made it clear via this forum that he had managed to do what no-one else could). So, applying your flexibility principle - the company was the least flexible and now they 'lose' ..

(my bolding and underlining)

[aircraft]

What remoak said.

P-A-F said:

The staff have just proven they increase risk to that return haven't they!

Good point.

[ITCZ]

Originally Posted by P-A-F

Let's not forget the fact that other operators will note which pilots have a propensity to take such action when they are looking at hiring - pilot shortage or not. You won't find that in any book either. You don't think QF, VB etc aren't watching carefully and taking names?

Wondered when that hoary old chestnut would come up - "Don't make waves, you will never work in this town/industry again!!"

Sad to tell you PAF, it is total rubbish. In fact, I've recently been speaking to folk in QF, VB, and JQ who make those decisions, and they are saying "good on you." Look in any of the flight departments of Aussie civil jet operations and you will find former NJS people, and/or former colleagues of NJS people in previous companies, that know all too well the antics of this particular operation.

When it comes to the crunch, pilots are hired by other pilots, not 'management.'

[flyingfox]

Thanks Remoak, Aircraft, PAF for your continued positive input to the staff of NJS who are being treated like fools. We all love being lied to and manipulated by NJS Management in their pursuit of maximizing profit. WOG said it all very nicely. If you have had personal experience of NJS Management in action you will realize that they are extremely hard to deal with. They are also at the low end of the integrity scale, so ordinary people are at an instant disadvantage when expecting honesty. If NJS stated their case truthfully and with some degree of transparency they would never have alienated the majority of their Pilots in the first place. This didn't just happen over night. We have experienced their CRM teachings, their 'Team Bonding' courses and their Mission Statements to ad nauseum. When it gets to genuine talks, we find none of the values they espouse are followed by themselves. Lies, spin and manipulation at every level. (The prosecution in the Federal Majistrates Court is an example of how an outside body views NJS Managements' behaviour even in regards to the law. The adjournment of this case won't change the outcome!) Even good senior managers from NJS have eventually jumped ship and taken their skills and knowledge elsewhere after being unable to cope with the NJS culture. This Company should and does get a good return on its' capital and risk. The point is that the staff are there for some rewards too. Just being employed does not satisfy that expectation if the payback gets smaller for every year of service. (And don't give us that 'if you don't like it, then leave' bulldust. NJS has cornered a considerable slice of the Australian market while many of us have been there and working hard for that goal. We aren't looking for a personal goldmine; just the chance to hold on to what we have had. NJS staff have always worked for competitive renumerations which keep us in the hunt for new business.) Pilots and Engineers from this company were all enthusiastic NJS people once until the belt tightening and bulldust load became unbearable. To receive constant lies and spin as well has just become to much. Lets stop the race to the bottom now. A resources boom and strong economy should benefit everyone, not just business and investors. Pilots are not particularly well paid in this part of the industry yet have to meet every standard applicable to others at the wealthy end of the spectrum. NJS has good margins and are able to pay handsomely when needed. (Surveillance Australia can provide some insight here.) We all want NJS to make heaps! They just need to remember whos' skills are letting them achieve that outcome. Other Pilots in other companies take note. This profession does not have to be owned by just 'impoverished enthusiasts.' Hard work, high standards and commitment should at least be rewarded with a 'just' salary and fair treatment. If you employer behaves in a less than professional manner than that which pilots demand, then stand up to them. Some managers only 'talk' when their own threats and dismissive treatment are returned!

[Ross Oakley]

Flyiong Fox, Thankyou!! I do not know where you are from but you hit the nail On the head and could not have summed up the whole lot better!!

Yes NJS has had one hell of a dedicated workforce and they managed to attempt to stuff it up in one foul swoop. Hopefully, if they can see reason, once again they will have a willing and dedicated workforce that will continue to provide the excellent product to our customers and management that we all have for the last decade and a bit!!!!

[cunninglinguist]

Originally Posted by P-A-F
Let's not forget the fact that other operators will note which pilots have a propensity to take such action when they are looking at hiring - pilot shortage or not. You won't find that in any book either. You don't think QF, VB etc aren't watching carefully and taking names?

So I guess nobody from the '89 dispute was re-employed then You would be lucky to find more than a handful of 89ers that did'nt walk straight into jobs worldwide, inc Oz ( not inc AN and TN )
You could'nt be more wrong in this case PAF, old cock.

[Lord Flashhart]

Cunning,

You are sort of proving his point. 89ers were unemployable in Aus though weren't they?

[Wizofoz]

89ers were unemployable in Aus though weren't they?

No. They got jobs with QF,NJS,RFDS and GA operations nation wide. They now work for VB, Ozjet and Jetstar. Also, any who wanted to get their jobs back with AN and AA up until the "Cutoff" date did so, as well as some afterwards.

[greybeard]

At the risk of thread drift,

12 or perhaps 13 '89ers were employed by AN QF after the cut off date and that status quo remained for almost the life of AN, there has been some drift back to QF and its subsideries since apart from NJ where many '89ers were always welcome from the beginng.

Good luck to the NJ troops, many will know me directly from previous lives I hope it all goes well

[Track Coastal]

PAF

I'm a pilot too. I just have my own opinion (if that isn't obivous!) on ethical decision making

You're an Air Force pilot I believe. You've never had your pay or conditions eroded, nor had to sign divisive and secretly hierarchical AWAs. You have never had to take it in the blurter since Work Choices came in, actually you've probably never negotiated a salary individually or collectively - full stop.

There is a chap floating around PpruNe by the moniker of Dutch Roll, who is also an ex Herc driver now with QF I believe, who posts fair and centrist views that are at odds with your purely theoretical; zero private sector real world industrial experience; and, right wing ideology - so it can't be an RAAF brainwashing thing.

If you can't say something positive, don't say anything. Support these people, its within the law and for the benefit of the aviation industry as a whole.

[travelator]

Lets not forget that PIA has not happened yet. NJS will get 3 days official notice. Whatever caused the disruption in Murin had nothing to do with PIA.

P-A-F said:

I'm happy for you to exercise your right. Your right to quit and get another job. Isn't there a pilot shortage?

If NJS pilots were KFC workers then yeah, it would be better to go and work for Maccas if the pay was better. We are pilots. Our earnings are dependant on seniority. Captains will find themselves as FO's again and FO's will go to the bottom of the list at a new company. They cannot afford to do this.

If any of the NJS pilots wanted to move up to QF or DJ I reckon they have just put a black mark on their resume.

Why would they want to? What is wrong with not wanting to go somewhere else? NJS operate high capacity RPT jet services, just as VB and QF do. The job is the same.

[Ralph the Bong]

Yep, and that's why seniority is a dead duck in the current environment. Seniority is a restrictive practice that serves to ERODE our conditions. A progressive response would be to abandon this archaic promotional mechanism and promote on qualifications and experience.