Mega Merged: Qantas Long Haul Cabin Crew Eba8 Negotiations

[nite walker]

EBA - regional flying

Can anyone explain how the new regional slipping formula will work in simple terms.
Does this mean we could go to Beijing have 24 hrs, then operate to melbourne have 12 hours and operate to sin and have 14hrs then back to syd via mel or bne probably. i did the sums on paper and it seems it could be done. it equals 50 hours which is the new formula.

I looked up the min rests on night and day regional trips in the pattern book. They were either 20 hrs or 12 hrs.

It might look ok in isolation but when you have just had an africa and are still jet lagged or the hotel room you are given was sub standard (does that happen) i think it is a different matter.
My understanding is short haul couldnt cope with those sort of short/min slips. How will we when we throw some of our long range trips onto the roster. we will know all about jet lag then.

i think this regional flying slip formula may be just possible if we were only flying regional but that wont be the case.

Your thoughts please Pegasus and anyone else who has a handle on this thing.

Me thinks the eba 8 regional flying formula could be the issue which causes everyone to take pause. S Haul feel free to comment on this issue your experience and feedback is important.

[packrat]

Someone said

All in all not a bad partime job.
You just have to decide whether you want to fly longhaul on the big mama or fly regional and spend a lot more time at home.
What about long range and transport on this big sucker...will they remain?

[whatever6719]

Defcon
You probably are sincere in your post about "domestics being the losers" and not just trying to wind us up. I dont know how you think we "lose" by soley flying within Australia. Thats the thing I find a little hard to stomach sometimes when you lh crew assume anything less than 14 plus hours on the one flight is somehow not worthy and beneath you. Even Peg747 sprouted something before about lh cc being "infinitely more experienced in a range of skills than most short haul crew given the length of flights and scenarios blah blah blah" Honestly, at that point, i thought id heard it all. Not to take anything away from lh at all but im sure even you have to appreciate the different range of scenarios we at short haul come across when we do 4 leg days (which include 4 boardings/demos/services/the various checks and procedures we have to follow, etc etc). If that doesnt expose a flight attendant to a huge array of scenarios and test their skills then nothing would. And this can be repeated a numer of times a week if that flight attendant chooses to bid for them.
I really do not want to turn this into a boring slanging match between sh and lh because its been done to death. Im only just trying to bring just a little bit of balance cause i think its needed here. Ive said it before in earlier posts that im glad lh are getting back something that has been theirs in the past. It is just and right. But can we just show a little respect
to each other cause we all know how quickly things can change in this company.
Anyway, rant over, happy flying to all!

[samford]

Night Walker - I have to agree with you. The regional patterns we have had over the time in sh have been a little hard to stomach at times. I must admit lately they don't seem so bad, and I think alot has to do with some of the flying already returning to long haul.

Heres an example of a trip I released from my line:

SYD/ADL/SIN - 14 hrs rest,
SIN/PER/SIN 13 hrs rest,
SIN/PER, 15hrs rest,
PER/DRW, 11hrs rest,
DRW/SYD (BOC).

I'm fortunate enough to not have to to regional flying, why would I for 4.98/hr? So, I support that flying going back to where it should have been all this time. I do feel for the casuals, they are not all bad you guys and I hope some of them get a chance in this new set up, should it be voted up.

[lowerlobe]

Pegasus…

Why do you keep dodging my questions and then when you do,you answer it like a politician and talk about something else.

The CSM and CSS selection process is one that affects every crew member wanting to
better themselves and is something that should be closely looked at by the FAAA.

It has been said here that one of the problems is that candidates for CSM do not necessarily have to have spent time in Y/C as a CSS.In fact the company wants them to be able to sourced from BFA crew.

It has also been noted that the base transfer list effectively discriminates against those crew who cannot for a variety of reasons move to another Capital city.

This is a reality because the high number of CSM’s on the transfer list from Melbourne and Brisbane.

Here are some of your quotes…

“The only selection process that would be completely impartial would be one that Qantas management have no part in”

….Not so.

Why couldn’t the company include managers from other sections of the company such as Freight,Engineering,Technical Crew in the interview process …in fact from anywhere within the company so that Cabin Crew management cannot EASILY exercise their well known cronyistic methods?????

Pegasus also aid….

“I cannot think of a selection process that any organisation would agree to that would essentially allow crew to select those suitable for promotion”

….It was never suggested that fellow crew pick the new CSM’s.Only that a new candidate would be required to work as a CSS in Y/C for a period say of at leats 6 months.If the company values their current on board managers then they should be able to rely on their managers assessments and take them into account when evaluating candidates.

This also has the benefit of testing the sincerity of crew wanting the job.IF they really want the job then they should have no problem working as a CSS in Y/C for a set time.

Pegasus said…

“Anything that stops the company from directly appointing an outside contractor or labour hire person to a position is illegal”

…Pegasus, Can you show me where this was ever suggested? Or is this another attempt to divert attention away from the questions?

Finally Pegasus said…

“the Selection criteria cannot sit an an EBA as it is prohibited content by law”

If anything to do with the CSM selection process is illegal under the EBA negotiations why then is this included in the EBA…

“Flight Attendants / BFA with four years service will be able to apply for CSM positions”

Apparently the company does not use the same rule book that you are using Pegasus….or you are using the wrong one yourself…

IF the company can include that in the EBA then what is stopping the FAAA from including some other criteria in the CSM selection process…..

The transfer list for CSM’s wanting to come back is one that the previous union included and therefore can also be removed or amended by this union.

This will help those in Sydney who want to apply for the position of CSM but cannot move to Melbourne,Brisbane or Wagga Wagga.

[surfside6]

Lobey and Nite Walker

1.Lobey you are becoming more irrelevant by the day
2.Nite Walker...the scenario you suggest will never exist.There will be no mix and match with flying...you will either be on the A380 or you will be regional...not both

[lowerlobe]

Lobey you are becoming more irrelevant by the day

surfside6..........There is nothing irrelevant about these questions to someone who wants to be a CSM and doesn't want to take ST to a Footy match....

Surfside ..tell me what is irrelevant about my questions?

To put it simply why not have someone like Pegasus answer the questions....

Simple really and not irrelevant at all .......unless they don't want to answer the questions....

[surfside6]

Lobey's Pegasus Fixation

Why in particular do you want Peg747 to answer your non question?You are starting to sound like a bunny boiler.
Some years ago QF obtained the services of Keane and Associates to oversee the CSM selection process...the results were outstanding.QF mangement had no input whatsoever.Totally transparent. Unforunately it was expensive so it came to an end.

[Flugbegleiter]

Originally Posted by DEFCON4

The real big losers here are the domestics.They pretty much go back to flying within Australia.

But that's what domestic crew were always supposed to do. Sure, some like doing some international flying, but the majority of short haul crew I know went to shorthaul or work in shorthaul because they don't want to do longer international flying. My understanding is that shorthaul crew can still transfer to longhaul if they want to do the international stuff, so they are not really losing out at all. And if shorthaul is downsized, then I'm sure that is what will happen with a lot of crew. I don't imagine that our EBA excludes them from our current pay and conditions, unlike their EBA which did in fact exclude us from their band payments...

[lowerlobe]

Originally posted by Surfside...

Why in particular do you want Peg747 to answer your non question?You are starting to sound like a bunny boiler.

Some years ago QF obtained the services of Keane and Associates to oversee the CSM selection process...the results were outstanding.QF mangement had no input whatsoever.Totally transparent. Unforunately it was expensive so it came to an end.

Firstly,it's not a non question surfside as it is very relevant to anyone who wants to be a CSM.

It's fairly obvious who Pegasus represents and therefore why my question is directed to him....

Secondly,I have never suggested an external firm for the selection process.Only you and Pegasus seem to be coming up with that and as we all know how tight the company is is totally irrelevant.

Pegasus was online a while ago and again has ignored the questions.

IF someone does not choose to answer a question it is usually because they either do not know the answer or do not care to give the answer....you can draw your own conclusions...

[surfside6]

Lobey.An Answer to Your Question

Peg Probably doesnt answer your questions because you are vexatious.
You ask a question but are never satisfied with the answer.Much like a small child who asks "why" ad nauseum.
Your arguments are neither cogent or deductive.You derive most of your information from the tabloids.You love playing the devils advocate for its own sake.In general you contribute very little.You have never provided a definitive solution for any thing...and when someone does provide a solution you are critical of it
Let me ask you a question...Is the EBA a good deal?...if not ...why not?

[Big Barrels]

The company has been happily telling people that the 380 will do LA to start with, then eventually LHR. FRA and JNB are still a long way off. It was actually stated by somebody who would know recently that up to 50% of the LA flying will be done by the 380 within 3 years.

If the remaining LA flying goes to the AKL base, then I guess the Long Range flying will be almost unheard of for the majority of crew.

As for accepting a 'B' scale, is that an admission the current crew are overpaid?

[DEFCON4]

"B" Scale

No..it is not an admission that LHCC are overpaid.It is a pragmatic and necessary negotiating device that allows the continuance of the LongHaul division and a reduction in costs for Qantas.
A number of Airlines have "B"scales for their pilots and CC.It is an effective tool for overcoming what may otherwis be an impasse to resolution.
LongRange applies to SFO..I dont envisage traffic growth sufficient to warrant the deployment of an A380 to this destination.
The generation of Ultra Long Range is not that far away....LongRange would also apply to these aircraft

[Big Barrels]

So assuming a large proportion of LA flying goes to AKL and 380 crew, we should celebrate that San Fran is still available?

How hard will it be to get to SFO if this eventuates? I imagine you would have to be in the top 5% to get there. Hardly positive information for the majority of crew.

Then again, with the newer generation of ultra long range aircraft, what is the guarantee that LHCC will fly them? The same guarantee that also applies to the 380? What will stop QF from using the same tactic with the 787 as with the 380 in terms of using the separate crewing company?

The long range pay is pretty much dead and buried for most I suspect with this agreement. So in truth an effective pay cut that starts to get worse the longer it goes after 2 years down the track.

[cartexchange]

this is not looking good!
go to the 380 ( not good)
stay in mainfleet ( just as bad)

any comments from someone with an alpha numeric name!

[left 4 primary]

I was looking forward to operating on the A380, but now I'm not too sure.

Why can't we do what we do now and continue to cross-crew? I know that we will have an A scale, and others on a B scale on the same plane, but don't we effectively do that now with the current O/S bases anyhow?

I've never considered that EBA8 could result in a pay cut, the 3% increase would not offset the loss of the long-range allowance.

Five years is really such a short time when you fly. Have you considered EBA9?

The possible introduction of a "C" scale rate of pay.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the Mam's are already at that stage.

Peg,Guardian , do we have to accept EBA8 as a whole? if we don't ratify the agreement is there still an opportunity to go back to the table and renegotiate, or is it a take it or leave it approach?

If we decide not to go with it, does EBA7 continue on until there is a new proposal placed on the table?

Where do we stand?

[lowerlobe]

Surfside…..

It’s good to see that you have purchased a thesaurus.I would suggest however that you look up the word ‘Tautology’ and then look at your posts.

I honestly cannot see why anything I have said could cause you to claim I am vexatious.If you don't receive an answer from someone do you just walk away?

I assume the union represents those who want to apply for CSM and CSS?

Instead of any answer’s though you instead ask a question…….I’m not interested in your replies as I would like one of the reps here for an answer and surfside next time try not to lower yourself to name calling again as it is becoming repetitive and tiresome.

I have asked a few questions which neither Pegasus,Guardian or Eden have answered.

Can you show where any of you have answered either of the following questions…

1:What do you think about a requirement for potential CSM applicants to have worked for a mandatory period as a CSS in Y/C?

2:What do you think about the discriminatory effect of the transfer list on those in Sydney who cannot for a variety of reasons move to Melbourne or any other base in Australia for that fact.

3:Pegasus said that it was illegal for any promotion or selection criteria to be included in the EBA document.

Why then did the company include the clause that BFA crew could apply for CSM in this latest EBA?

Pegasus and Co. are doing their best to ignore these questions and I can only assume it is because they don’t have any answer’s.

[Pegasus747]

all answers are being given to FAAA members at the meetings and in email responses.

I dont believe the FAAA has any obligation to provide information to non members or interested observers, or certainly to anonymous forums.

Any MEMBER that contacts the FAAA gets a response.

Thats the case.... as for CSM selection my personal view is that i liked it when it was done by outside consultants. However we are not the public service and there are no appeal mechanisms.

Anyone that works in other than the Cabin crew shetered workshop would know that the world has chanaged and the boss gived the jobs to the people they like and think are competent. And the other workers whinge about the new bosses and how incompetent they are and how "they" or others could do a better job.

THE FAAA and flight attendants dont have control of promotions and never will even if we wanted to ..so lets move on

[Pegasus747]

As for EBA its a package...there are bits that the company needs/wants ..those are generally the things we dont like

Then there are the bits that we want and the company doesnt like but agrees to as part of the overall package.

Once an in principle agreement is reached then you vote YES or NO.

Bear in mind that this is in my view a comprehensive agreement and provides considerably more job protection than we have now.

If the EBA is voted down, then in January the SHort Haul Union will start its negotiations with Qantas. If there is anything left after that then i am sure we will talk to Qantas again and try and get something.

However it will not look like what this inprinciple agreement looks like. Nor will it have any of its protections and growth principles nor access to new aircraft.

I would suggest that at best you could hope for a transfer to Short Haul or ask Maurice Alexander for a job

[left 4 primary]

Thanks Peg,

I'll make sure that I get to one of the FAAA meetings.