Mega Merged: Qantas Long Haul Cabin Crew Eba8 Negotiations
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Heaven
Posts: 584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dont Waste Your Time
If your manager,Taranto,Webster or someone else in the office hasnt suggested that you apply for a promotion then dont bother.
This is an invitation(code) to go straight to Uniforms for your red tie or Scarfe.
In short, the interview process is just for show and doesnt apply to you.
In a religious sense you have been.... anointed
This is an invitation(code) to go straight to Uniforms for your red tie or Scarfe.
In short, the interview process is just for show and doesnt apply to you.
In a religious sense you have been.... anointed
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sydney
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Defcon,
i agree in many respects with what you say. Some crew have become quite accomplished at talking the talk but not then after being promoted being able to walk the walk.
In my view there is no substitute for experience...a flight attendant will certainly pick up experience but being able to Manage in a skill that is learned over time, and managing as a CSM is a lot more challenging than it appears.
The good CSM's make the job look easy. The incompetent ones are constantly in a flap..Given that some of the current CSMs are totally incompetent as we all know doesnt strengthen the argument for the current system ...LOL
But it HAs served us generally well
i agree in many respects with what you say. Some crew have become quite accomplished at talking the talk but not then after being promoted being able to walk the walk.
In my view there is no substitute for experience...a flight attendant will certainly pick up experience but being able to Manage in a skill that is learned over time, and managing as a CSM is a lot more challenging than it appears.
The good CSM's make the job look easy. The incompetent ones are constantly in a flap..Given that some of the current CSMs are totally incompetent as we all know doesnt strengthen the argument for the current system ...LOL
But it HAs served us generally well
Registered User **
Join Date: May 2005
Location: The Ultimate Crew Rest....
Age: 69
Posts: 2,346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But it HAs served us generally well
How about those hundreds if not more that would like to get the job and more importantly have the skills ?
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: sydney
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'' The process"
How about a system whereby before becoming a CSM an applicant should have remained in the position of CSS for at least a year. Hopefully that will be sufficient time to prove that an applicant has the "mettle" to at least make the transition to the position of CSM let alone carry out the duties profficiently as one. I am personally just a little pissed at watching these people who see the CSS position as just a obstacle in the "race" to CSM.
Any CSM,s out there think that this may be a good idea.
Have just heard some of those that are about to apply for the CSM position and i am beginning to cringe.....just a tad!
Any CSM,s out there think that this may be a good idea.
Have just heard some of those that are about to apply for the CSM position and i am beginning to cringe.....just a tad!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sydney
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
lower,
i meant served Qantas....it would be fair to say that many CSMs are selected well. However i think some of the more recent ones (a few in particular) leave me a little bothered lol
i meant served Qantas....it would be fair to say that many CSMs are selected well. However i think some of the more recent ones (a few in particular) leave me a little bothered lol
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: sydney
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I mentioned this promotion factor in EBA8 in my first ever post on the 27th Nov, currently on page 21, and I immediately got crucified by Midnight.
So far, I agree with everyone.
You're very quite about the subject now Midnight.
So far, I agree with everyone.
You're very quite about the subject now Midnight.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: sydney
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Peg,
You are way to kind, they have only left you bothered, most have left me gobsmacked. Since the Bafoons behind the glass walls have nested the application procedure and its outcomes has been laughable, so much so that some damn decent candidates are no longer considering applying for the position. Given that unless the, dare i say it, managers, cabin crew that is, have personally seen an applicant "manage" then they are up that creek in a barbed wire boat!. Remember the acknowledged or supported box!.
The process needs to be given a large dose of salts before a little kudos can be granted it.
You are way to kind, they have only left you bothered, most have left me gobsmacked. Since the Bafoons behind the glass walls have nested the application procedure and its outcomes has been laughable, so much so that some damn decent candidates are no longer considering applying for the position. Given that unless the, dare i say it, managers, cabin crew that is, have personally seen an applicant "manage" then they are up that creek in a barbed wire boat!. Remember the acknowledged or supported box!.
The process needs to be given a large dose of salts before a little kudos can be granted it.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: sydney
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Food For Thought.
Just received this e-mail in regards to the EBA, thought I'd pass it on for a response.
How did Bill Clinton put it........? One has to be very careful in deciphering and comprehending what is being said/offered in these 'dirty deals.' For example the CC were led to believe (from FAAA) that Qantas would, 'maintain the current cap on overseas bases' and that this would mean no additional overseas recruiting. However, it then comes to light that the 'current cap' is a percentage and that with the additional Australian crew employed through QCCA, there would also be an additional 400 overseas CC.
The CC were also led to believe the deal stitched up flying of all new types, ala A380 and B787 with words such as, 'all new wide-bodied aircraft flown Internationally will be flown by long-haul crew.' Obviously all the new QCCA and overseas recruits will be considered 'long-haul crew.'
Oh, and as Mick said above, all this with the J-scale pay for new hires. I bet they'll be rushing in to pay their subscriptions to the FAAA.
What's that nagging prickly feeling at the back of my neck? GUILT! And the $3000 is blood money. And Rudd had only been in for 3 days.
We've been conditioned to believe that 3% is the holy grail of pay rises. I hope that Contract 2007 looks substantially better than the CC deal. It stinks!
The market rules.
The conclusion by both teams involved is that suitable units are available for a 25%discount on hourly running costs. These units are expected to be 30% more productive than the current units.
If this is so- and I don''t doubt that it is-the FAAA have done well to come out with improved conditions for it's present workforce.
Clearly they were given these conditions as the price of retaining some experience in the company and industrial and political peace and quiet.
PR is also another factor. For an Australian employer to be seen cutting the pay and conditions of current workers, or hiring an increasing percentage of foreign workers to do what are seen as Australian jobs, in a company considered an Australian Icon could shift sentiment and damage the bottom line.
Also it should be noticed that the gains- and reduced conditions for future hires- were obtained via negotiations and with reference to the real market.
The lesson for AIPA is clear, understand the market, understand what is possible and negotiate.
Technical aircrew are a different kind of unit and not so easy to obtain or train as cabin crew. Using market theory the price should respond to the demand, scarcity and complexity of the unit needed at the sharp end of the airplane.
The current market appears to favor the seller. That doesn't mean the buyers wont try and project another perception, that's just a normal negotiating tactic.
I still hold the same view. Negotiation over litigation, as much rapport with those you negotiate with as possible, and total understanding of the market and what can be achieved.
A good outcome for both parties should be possible under present conditions.
Further Thoughts.....
“I thought a union was to represent ALL employees”
It is. Therefore, that is exactly what the FAAA have done.
All employees currently in the FAAA have just negotiated a good deal…..for them!
I think you will find the realisation that the “golden-days” of a long-term Flight Attendant, earning more than a Regional Airline Captain are gone and this is the FAAA method of dealing with that form of change or hard economic fact. That’s what we are told by our Qantas Flight Attendant colleagues here on the coast anyway…… TJF!
Realisation…….that there is NOT a World-Wide shortage of Flight Attendants. Realisation that most of the world start-up Airlines are driving down the rates of pay for Flight Attendants.
Yes, the arguments of Pay and Conditions always come after one secures employment in that “dream” airline job. Plenty of young persons seeking travel on paid conditions. Certainly beats “back-packing” to exotic destinations. I wonder how the service standard on-board will alter after January 1 2008, or if anyone really cares in corporate Qantas.
Do such savings make for significant Managerial Bonuses in the short to medium term?
I would expect to see VR offered (on several occasions) to the current Flight Attendants over the next Three to Five years.
Industrially considering the FAAA position, should we at AIPA deal for those not employed and as yet not even members of our Association. Of course not, however and possibly another analogy to consider…… if you went to Griffith University and offered the Aviation Students employment on wide-body jets for $95,000 you would probably be “crushed” in the rush to sign up.
However, unlike the Flight Attendants, that is NOT a feasible prospect as such “newbie’s” cannot compliment your current pilot position, after a five-week ground course (thank-heavens) and service training.
Observing the current Qantas corporate industrial strategy and trends and considering the deep industrial aspects, I expect we would not be as stupid industrially (at least I hope we would not….) as to de-grade our conditions and profession today, based on fiscal motivations, that could be used against us all in the future.
Do I really care about what the FAAA has done, No!
Do I expect that Long Haul Fleet Pay, the ATO Reasonable Allowance Rates and Common Pay for Second Officers and revised Scheduling Conditions may be an industrial determination by Senior Qantas Management in the short to medium term, Yes!
I say this as I find the FAAA negotiation an illustrative and highly descriptive over-view of where Qantas Senior Management (read….Ian Oldmeadow Consulting and Qantas I.R.) and world trends, wishes to move in regards to pay, conditions and long-term employment for Technical Aircrew.
Unlike the FAAA, our position industrially, will depend on the ability of our AIPA negotiators to strike long-term industrial deals that preserve the best of conditions, pay and benefits for us now.
The ability to be able to negotiate effectively and strategically in EBA 8 by the AIPA is now obviously paramount, as is the timing, given recent world events.
With the price of oil at $100 a barrel, the World Share Markets expecting a recession in the USA, the FAAA having just completed a “costly” EBA (in company terms) and the Jetstar's Pilots EBA being re-negotiated to keep crews in aircraft …OH!... and a $70 Million Dollar fine for Qantas Price Fixing…I trust there is something left to pay we Long-Haul Pilots and Flight Engineers, if the deal is ever done. Sooner than later too!
I did read the AIPA insights “party line” yesterday, however I and my colleagues still have NO idea of what is being offered (why the big-secret AIPA….) or traded by either party. Surprise package… I am sure……..I trust not of the nature of the FAAA though!
Just my humble opinion and thoughts of course……
A Good Deal....For Whom?
Sounds like they’ve sold their souls for CPI, a Superannuation sweetener & a before tax “bonus” of 3000 pieces of silver! They’ll have no one to blame but themselves when, a few years down track, the following scenario has unfolded:
The ratio of the more fortunate “old guard” to the newer less fortunate has changed. The bitterness and divisiveness of a significant B Scale has festered away for a few years now. The initial novelty of being a new flight attendant has truly worn off.
They feel that they are overworked and underpaid – at least compared to those other more fortunate, truly understanding, empathetic original FAs. A new EBA is up for negotiation. The Company offers the lower pay scale plus enough of a sweetener to get the majority (now the less fortunate) to vote yes.
Ipso facto, the EBA gets up and all FA’s are now on J* style conditions. What a magnificent coup! One has to appreciate the Machiavellian brilliance of this medium term play
It doesn’t really matter how you try to justify it; the bottom line is, if you willingly vote in a B Scale you are acknowledging that your job is worth less than you are currently getting i.e. you agree with management that you are over paid!! Dangerous ground that. Then, it’s only a matter of time until you are in the same unenviable position. Somewhat difficult to then argue that you’re special & are worth more than those other plebes, isn’t it?
I know, market forces, high oil prices, competition etc Yada yada yada. Airline profits have been great. The sky is not about to fall in. There is no reason why people have to sell their profession short, merely to line the pockets of some little office oxygen thief, so he can have the bonus that he so richly deserves!
What is of concern here is the principle of a B scale & the foolishness, and deleterious consequences of signing up to it, for short term gain. They get paid what they get paid; rightly or wrongly. I’ll not enter into that. Who says that they have to devalue their jobs? Management? Must be necessary then. No agenda here. Plenty of used car sales people though. Are management reducing their remuneration? Mmmmmmmmmmm.
Let’s just hope that we have the sense to do otherwise. But than again, there was that great SH EBA result.
Speaking of other EBAs, today the IRC granted LAMEs permission to undertake a ballot for industrial action for the purpose of advancing claims in their EBA. The ballot closes 20th December and the proposals include overtime bans, higher duties bans, and stop work meetings, all in time for Christmas.
Regarding the FAAA, despite what their deal looks like at first glance let's not make too many grievous assumptions. The name of the game is extracting the best possible gains under the existing circumstances, given the current market supply/demand relationship and importantly, the employer's capacity to pay.
Just received this e-mail in regards to the EBA, thought I'd pass it on for a response.
How did Bill Clinton put it........? One has to be very careful in deciphering and comprehending what is being said/offered in these 'dirty deals.' For example the CC were led to believe (from FAAA) that Qantas would, 'maintain the current cap on overseas bases' and that this would mean no additional overseas recruiting. However, it then comes to light that the 'current cap' is a percentage and that with the additional Australian crew employed through QCCA, there would also be an additional 400 overseas CC.
The CC were also led to believe the deal stitched up flying of all new types, ala A380 and B787 with words such as, 'all new wide-bodied aircraft flown Internationally will be flown by long-haul crew.' Obviously all the new QCCA and overseas recruits will be considered 'long-haul crew.'
Oh, and as Mick said above, all this with the J-scale pay for new hires. I bet they'll be rushing in to pay their subscriptions to the FAAA.
What's that nagging prickly feeling at the back of my neck? GUILT! And the $3000 is blood money. And Rudd had only been in for 3 days.
We've been conditioned to believe that 3% is the holy grail of pay rises. I hope that Contract 2007 looks substantially better than the CC deal. It stinks!
The market rules.
The conclusion by both teams involved is that suitable units are available for a 25%discount on hourly running costs. These units are expected to be 30% more productive than the current units.
If this is so- and I don''t doubt that it is-the FAAA have done well to come out with improved conditions for it's present workforce.
Clearly they were given these conditions as the price of retaining some experience in the company and industrial and political peace and quiet.
PR is also another factor. For an Australian employer to be seen cutting the pay and conditions of current workers, or hiring an increasing percentage of foreign workers to do what are seen as Australian jobs, in a company considered an Australian Icon could shift sentiment and damage the bottom line.
Also it should be noticed that the gains- and reduced conditions for future hires- were obtained via negotiations and with reference to the real market.
The lesson for AIPA is clear, understand the market, understand what is possible and negotiate.
Technical aircrew are a different kind of unit and not so easy to obtain or train as cabin crew. Using market theory the price should respond to the demand, scarcity and complexity of the unit needed at the sharp end of the airplane.
The current market appears to favor the seller. That doesn't mean the buyers wont try and project another perception, that's just a normal negotiating tactic.
I still hold the same view. Negotiation over litigation, as much rapport with those you negotiate with as possible, and total understanding of the market and what can be achieved.
A good outcome for both parties should be possible under present conditions.
Further Thoughts.....
“I thought a union was to represent ALL employees”
It is. Therefore, that is exactly what the FAAA have done.
All employees currently in the FAAA have just negotiated a good deal…..for them!
I think you will find the realisation that the “golden-days” of a long-term Flight Attendant, earning more than a Regional Airline Captain are gone and this is the FAAA method of dealing with that form of change or hard economic fact. That’s what we are told by our Qantas Flight Attendant colleagues here on the coast anyway…… TJF!
Realisation…….that there is NOT a World-Wide shortage of Flight Attendants. Realisation that most of the world start-up Airlines are driving down the rates of pay for Flight Attendants.
Yes, the arguments of Pay and Conditions always come after one secures employment in that “dream” airline job. Plenty of young persons seeking travel on paid conditions. Certainly beats “back-packing” to exotic destinations. I wonder how the service standard on-board will alter after January 1 2008, or if anyone really cares in corporate Qantas.
Do such savings make for significant Managerial Bonuses in the short to medium term?
I would expect to see VR offered (on several occasions) to the current Flight Attendants over the next Three to Five years.
Industrially considering the FAAA position, should we at AIPA deal for those not employed and as yet not even members of our Association. Of course not, however and possibly another analogy to consider…… if you went to Griffith University and offered the Aviation Students employment on wide-body jets for $95,000 you would probably be “crushed” in the rush to sign up.
However, unlike the Flight Attendants, that is NOT a feasible prospect as such “newbie’s” cannot compliment your current pilot position, after a five-week ground course (thank-heavens) and service training.
Observing the current Qantas corporate industrial strategy and trends and considering the deep industrial aspects, I expect we would not be as stupid industrially (at least I hope we would not….) as to de-grade our conditions and profession today, based on fiscal motivations, that could be used against us all in the future.
Do I really care about what the FAAA has done, No!
Do I expect that Long Haul Fleet Pay, the ATO Reasonable Allowance Rates and Common Pay for Second Officers and revised Scheduling Conditions may be an industrial determination by Senior Qantas Management in the short to medium term, Yes!
I say this as I find the FAAA negotiation an illustrative and highly descriptive over-view of where Qantas Senior Management (read….Ian Oldmeadow Consulting and Qantas I.R.) and world trends, wishes to move in regards to pay, conditions and long-term employment for Technical Aircrew.
Unlike the FAAA, our position industrially, will depend on the ability of our AIPA negotiators to strike long-term industrial deals that preserve the best of conditions, pay and benefits for us now.
The ability to be able to negotiate effectively and strategically in EBA 8 by the AIPA is now obviously paramount, as is the timing, given recent world events.
With the price of oil at $100 a barrel, the World Share Markets expecting a recession in the USA, the FAAA having just completed a “costly” EBA (in company terms) and the Jetstar's Pilots EBA being re-negotiated to keep crews in aircraft …OH!... and a $70 Million Dollar fine for Qantas Price Fixing…I trust there is something left to pay we Long-Haul Pilots and Flight Engineers, if the deal is ever done. Sooner than later too!
I did read the AIPA insights “party line” yesterday, however I and my colleagues still have NO idea of what is being offered (why the big-secret AIPA….) or traded by either party. Surprise package… I am sure……..I trust not of the nature of the FAAA though!
Just my humble opinion and thoughts of course……
A Good Deal....For Whom?
Sounds like they’ve sold their souls for CPI, a Superannuation sweetener & a before tax “bonus” of 3000 pieces of silver! They’ll have no one to blame but themselves when, a few years down track, the following scenario has unfolded:
The ratio of the more fortunate “old guard” to the newer less fortunate has changed. The bitterness and divisiveness of a significant B Scale has festered away for a few years now. The initial novelty of being a new flight attendant has truly worn off.
They feel that they are overworked and underpaid – at least compared to those other more fortunate, truly understanding, empathetic original FAs. A new EBA is up for negotiation. The Company offers the lower pay scale plus enough of a sweetener to get the majority (now the less fortunate) to vote yes.
Ipso facto, the EBA gets up and all FA’s are now on J* style conditions. What a magnificent coup! One has to appreciate the Machiavellian brilliance of this medium term play
It doesn’t really matter how you try to justify it; the bottom line is, if you willingly vote in a B Scale you are acknowledging that your job is worth less than you are currently getting i.e. you agree with management that you are over paid!! Dangerous ground that. Then, it’s only a matter of time until you are in the same unenviable position. Somewhat difficult to then argue that you’re special & are worth more than those other plebes, isn’t it?
I know, market forces, high oil prices, competition etc Yada yada yada. Airline profits have been great. The sky is not about to fall in. There is no reason why people have to sell their profession short, merely to line the pockets of some little office oxygen thief, so he can have the bonus that he so richly deserves!
What is of concern here is the principle of a B scale & the foolishness, and deleterious consequences of signing up to it, for short term gain. They get paid what they get paid; rightly or wrongly. I’ll not enter into that. Who says that they have to devalue their jobs? Management? Must be necessary then. No agenda here. Plenty of used car sales people though. Are management reducing their remuneration? Mmmmmmmmmmm.
Let’s just hope that we have the sense to do otherwise. But than again, there was that great SH EBA result.
Speaking of other EBAs, today the IRC granted LAMEs permission to undertake a ballot for industrial action for the purpose of advancing claims in their EBA. The ballot closes 20th December and the proposals include overtime bans, higher duties bans, and stop work meetings, all in time for Christmas.
Regarding the FAAA, despite what their deal looks like at first glance let's not make too many grievous assumptions. The name of the game is extracting the best possible gains under the existing circumstances, given the current market supply/demand relationship and importantly, the employer's capacity to pay.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: crew rest
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
as long as you can sit in the office for a few weeks, and can crawl your way to the BOS desk, then you have a chance.
The managers in there do have some input, but the main thing is you have to be known by the ST and AW. ( by the way the managers should have some say lets be realistic here!)
The process however is no where near as corrupt as when the Tamil tiger was in charge, nepotism at its highest, the corruption and the "most favored" treatment was used then for the CSM intake.
Promotion in any industry has its flaws, I personally think they should take a persons record and their BPR as a key indicator!
The applicant should serve at least 2 years as a CSS and even that is a short time, however its unwise to take them straight from the F/A ranks.
The managers in there do have some input, but the main thing is you have to be known by the ST and AW. ( by the way the managers should have some say lets be realistic here!)
The process however is no where near as corrupt as when the Tamil tiger was in charge, nepotism at its highest, the corruption and the "most favored" treatment was used then for the CSM intake.
Promotion in any industry has its flaws, I personally think they should take a persons record and their BPR as a key indicator!
The applicant should serve at least 2 years as a CSS and even that is a short time, however its unwise to take them straight from the F/A ranks.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Heaven
Posts: 584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
L4P Email
From whom did you receive the email?
It is a rather verbose piece of correspondence that draws the conclusion that is was a good deal under the circumstances.
By agreeing to a B Scale the FAAA has not admitted that LH CC are overpaid.
They have been pragmatic in ensuring LH CC survival.The renumeration we enjoy came about because of two events...the floating of the $A in 1984 and the forced introduction of the Bid System in 1988.Prior to 1988 flying was a good partime job.....and so it will be again.
This an excellent outcome considering the FAAA had few alternatives to maintaining the status quo.
The end result will see those of us currently employed dwindle to insignificance in the following 10 years.Qantas will have its required reduction in wages and hence superannuation.What Current crew will receive is an extended opportunity to leave while enjoying current Ts and Cs.The alternative was to have the overseas bases increase to more than 25% of total numbers and almost all regional flying given to the domestics.Promotion would have almost certainly been offered to the AKL base.
There is now going to be accelerated movement amongst all ranks.Particularly satisfying for those who have called JoBurg home for the last seven years.
New destinations for mainline are also on the horizon..greater choice and promotion for everyone.
This can be seen as a medium term macchiavellian masterstroke by QF...so what.?New hires will determine their lifestyle according to the wages they will receive...you dont miss what you have never had.
Current employees will be able maintain the lifestyles that are predicated on the remuneration they have received previously and now(assured of) currently.
A win win for all under the circumstances.
The alternatives were not really acceptable or viable to most current CC.
It is a rather verbose piece of correspondence that draws the conclusion that is was a good deal under the circumstances.
By agreeing to a B Scale the FAAA has not admitted that LH CC are overpaid.
They have been pragmatic in ensuring LH CC survival.The renumeration we enjoy came about because of two events...the floating of the $A in 1984 and the forced introduction of the Bid System in 1988.Prior to 1988 flying was a good partime job.....and so it will be again.
This an excellent outcome considering the FAAA had few alternatives to maintaining the status quo.
The end result will see those of us currently employed dwindle to insignificance in the following 10 years.Qantas will have its required reduction in wages and hence superannuation.What Current crew will receive is an extended opportunity to leave while enjoying current Ts and Cs.The alternative was to have the overseas bases increase to more than 25% of total numbers and almost all regional flying given to the domestics.Promotion would have almost certainly been offered to the AKL base.
There is now going to be accelerated movement amongst all ranks.Particularly satisfying for those who have called JoBurg home for the last seven years.
New destinations for mainline are also on the horizon..greater choice and promotion for everyone.
This can be seen as a medium term macchiavellian masterstroke by QF...so what.?New hires will determine their lifestyle according to the wages they will receive...you dont miss what you have never had.
Current employees will be able maintain the lifestyles that are predicated on the remuneration they have received previously and now(assured of) currently.
A win win for all under the circumstances.
The alternatives were not really acceptable or viable to most current CC.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sydney
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The last post be DEFCON best sums up the position that Long Haul crew have been facing, and also captures the essential elements of the membership meetings held by the FAAA and discussions with crew.
Unlike pilots that are contemplating increasing their hours by 10%, the FAAA wass instructed by its members not to accept any increase in hours for existing crew nor contemplate a reduction in core conditions.
i dont actually believe a new starter rate would have been necessary at all if all current crew were prepared to bring work rules and hours in line with the other Qantas employees that are getting the work now. Current crew have built their lives around the current conditions and hours and as such the leadership of the FAAA was forced to look elsewhere for some of the productivity.
The current laws that will be around for some time allow Qantas to set up a new company, not talk to the FAAA and employ new flight attendants on whatever money and condtitions they like and extract flying from the current crew to give them work. They could have given them the A380 and any new aircraft and we would have been left with no regional flying, no access to the A380, no access to any new aircraft and potentially our existing aircraft being overtaken by umlimted overseas based crew without any restrictions.
We have never been able to improve the conditions of those crew bases overseas. The new starters will work with us, get our allowances, get decent money access to promotion and also , being members of the FAAA, and part of our EBA we can work together to improve their conditions over time.
If they are overseas they will never be employed in Australia, or at best they will be casuals for a labour hire firm in melbourne with no annual leave, no sick leave, no long service leave, no staff travel and only 80 hours guarenteed hours a month.
The new proposed EBA finally wraps everything up into a comprehensive package that deals Long Haul crew back into the equation. we now have access to Aircraft, new routes and potentially make ourselves a competitive growth option for qantas rather than Jetstar International.
The conditions of our new starters will be streets ahead of jetstar international and it should be noted that they are lining up around the block for a job at jetstar.
Unlike pilots that are contemplating increasing their hours by 10%, the FAAA wass instructed by its members not to accept any increase in hours for existing crew nor contemplate a reduction in core conditions.
i dont actually believe a new starter rate would have been necessary at all if all current crew were prepared to bring work rules and hours in line with the other Qantas employees that are getting the work now. Current crew have built their lives around the current conditions and hours and as such the leadership of the FAAA was forced to look elsewhere for some of the productivity.
The current laws that will be around for some time allow Qantas to set up a new company, not talk to the FAAA and employ new flight attendants on whatever money and condtitions they like and extract flying from the current crew to give them work. They could have given them the A380 and any new aircraft and we would have been left with no regional flying, no access to the A380, no access to any new aircraft and potentially our existing aircraft being overtaken by umlimted overseas based crew without any restrictions.
We have never been able to improve the conditions of those crew bases overseas. The new starters will work with us, get our allowances, get decent money access to promotion and also , being members of the FAAA, and part of our EBA we can work together to improve their conditions over time.
If they are overseas they will never be employed in Australia, or at best they will be casuals for a labour hire firm in melbourne with no annual leave, no sick leave, no long service leave, no staff travel and only 80 hours guarenteed hours a month.
The new proposed EBA finally wraps everything up into a comprehensive package that deals Long Haul crew back into the equation. we now have access to Aircraft, new routes and potentially make ourselves a competitive growth option for qantas rather than Jetstar International.
The conditions of our new starters will be streets ahead of jetstar international and it should be noted that they are lining up around the block for a job at jetstar.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: sydney
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Absolutely Cart, i could not agree more. 1 year is to short a period of time to "cut your teeth" your 2 year suggestion is far better. As far as Lynn,s period of time at the helm and what occured in relation to promotion.i am not in a position to comment accurately. I did however feel it was a conflict of interest that the same person who dealt with disciplinary issues also had a large input in the promotion process.
It should be compulsory that BPR are taken into consideration for the promotional process, i place far more weight in the comments and feedback from my own onboard managers and colleagues than i do in a manager who has never and probably will never see my ability or inability first hand in the job i am employed.
I agree that there has to be a process but the process in place at the moment is far far from ideal.
It should be compulsory that BPR are taken into consideration for the promotional process, i place far more weight in the comments and feedback from my own onboard managers and colleagues than i do in a manager who has never and probably will never see my ability or inability first hand in the job i am employed.
I agree that there has to be a process but the process in place at the moment is far far from ideal.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: sydney
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Blurter8 I couldn't agree with you more .
When the Tamil Tiger was in, she should have not been involved in the selection process as there was a definite conflict of interest.
When the Tamil Tiger was in, she should have not been involved in the selection process as there was a definite conflict of interest.
Last edited by left 4 primary; 3rd Dec 2007 at 03:41.
Registered User **
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 621
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One of the biggest hurdles for someone going for the jacket is the base transfer list.If there are 30 vacancies then the transfers from melbourne will take the bulk of the spots in Sydney.
If you are Sydney based crew and you have ties to Sydney like children,wife/husband, mortgage or whatever and you have not got the time or money to move to melbourne then you are fighting against the tide.
Lobey is right with the company wanting bfa crew to go for the jacket as well.The company has already got their favourites in bfa and now they have the chance to let them run the show.
If you want to be a csm then you should have had to do time down the back.This way at least you have a better go at getting someone who knows what they are doing.There are a lot of treasures up there in j/c pr p/c who's only experience in y/c is when they go to the crew rest.
This is just another chance for the office clowns to get their mates in the jacket.
You guys are right about the tamil tiger and I was very happy when she got shown the door.They reckon you could hear her from the domestic terminals when she was escorted out the door.
If you are Sydney based crew and you have ties to Sydney like children,wife/husband, mortgage or whatever and you have not got the time or money to move to melbourne then you are fighting against the tide.
Lobey is right with the company wanting bfa crew to go for the jacket as well.The company has already got their favourites in bfa and now they have the chance to let them run the show.
If you want to be a csm then you should have had to do time down the back.This way at least you have a better go at getting someone who knows what they are doing.There are a lot of treasures up there in j/c pr p/c who's only experience in y/c is when they go to the crew rest.
This is just another chance for the office clowns to get their mates in the jacket.
You guys are right about the tamil tiger and I was very happy when she got shown the door.They reckon you could hear her from the domestic terminals when she was escorted out the door.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Dununda
Posts: 476
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Set Up To Fail
Going from a BFA to a CSS or a CSM without having a period of ongoing experience in Y/C means you are being set up to fail.
When you realize you dont have the skills to perform effectively in these roles the shine and elation evaporates very quickly.Crying in the toilet when the IFE wets itself is a perfect example.Crew will very quickly determine that you are incompetent.Without the respect of your crew you might as well stay at home and take up knitting.
Taranto has started knitting classes and vacancies are available every Monday Wednesday and Friday..Problem is.......she doesnt know how to knit herself.....an incompetent leading the more incompetent
Works for me......as pure entertainment
When you realize you dont have the skills to perform effectively in these roles the shine and elation evaporates very quickly.Crying in the toilet when the IFE wets itself is a perfect example.Crew will very quickly determine that you are incompetent.Without the respect of your crew you might as well stay at home and take up knitting.
Taranto has started knitting classes and vacancies are available every Monday Wednesday and Friday..Problem is.......she doesnt know how to knit herself.....an incompetent leading the more incompetent
Works for me......as pure entertainment
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Age: 65
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
facts not fiction
Its great to see a QF post site again. Lets hope we can keep our cool and stay this time.Some of the usual suspects seem not to have taken the hint from the moderators and continue the childish posts.Please stop guys.
First off this in-principle EBA looks very positive. Lots of good questions and answers on here. So far it looks a reasonable outcome considering all the different industrial situations we were facing.
L4 primary play nice. I think i know the person you are slinging about and have flown with him. If its the person i think you are referring to hes actually one of the better CSMs. I asked him way back when about those rumours and he was very straight about it all. No he didnt date the Tiger and he went to the footy with another manager who took her.He wasnt given a guest list before hand so he said. He just turned up and a Mr Sinclair had invited her. As i said I asked him at the time and he had no problem explaining. Not only did he cop a lot of flack when he got the job so has just about every other official.
What i hate about this industry is one minute we bag people like MM, SR. and other officials and next they are lauded such as now because of a good EBA. Wait till MM gets a promotion its only cos he was on the union people will say he got it. Ive flown with MM and he was a good CSS. Meanwhile many of us dont turn up at meetings, or spend our spare time doing all the stuff these guys do on their days off.Most of it unpaid.
They get no thanks only mud thrown at them when its undeserved.
Slinging mud is what got us all kicked off this site. If you are going to post stick to the facts.Particularly if you are talking about others. Oh I forgot this is a rumour network.
i thought the idea of this site is find out about what was rumour and what is fact.
Lets hope we get all the facts on the EBA before we vote not after it.
get your facts right L4 primary, as i said hes one of the better CSMs.
First off this in-principle EBA looks very positive. Lots of good questions and answers on here. So far it looks a reasonable outcome considering all the different industrial situations we were facing.
L4 primary play nice. I think i know the person you are slinging about and have flown with him. If its the person i think you are referring to hes actually one of the better CSMs. I asked him way back when about those rumours and he was very straight about it all. No he didnt date the Tiger and he went to the footy with another manager who took her.He wasnt given a guest list before hand so he said. He just turned up and a Mr Sinclair had invited her. As i said I asked him at the time and he had no problem explaining. Not only did he cop a lot of flack when he got the job so has just about every other official.
What i hate about this industry is one minute we bag people like MM, SR. and other officials and next they are lauded such as now because of a good EBA. Wait till MM gets a promotion its only cos he was on the union people will say he got it. Ive flown with MM and he was a good CSS. Meanwhile many of us dont turn up at meetings, or spend our spare time doing all the stuff these guys do on their days off.Most of it unpaid.
They get no thanks only mud thrown at them when its undeserved.
Slinging mud is what got us all kicked off this site. If you are going to post stick to the facts.Particularly if you are talking about others. Oh I forgot this is a rumour network.
i thought the idea of this site is find out about what was rumour and what is fact.Lets hope we get all the facts on the EBA before we vote not after it.
get your facts right L4 primary, as i said hes one of the better CSMs.
Last edited by nite walker; 2nd Dec 2007 at 02:20.
Registered User **
Join Date: May 2005
Location: The Ultimate Crew Rest....
Age: 69
Posts: 2,346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by nite walker....What i hate about this industry is one minute we bag people like MM, SR. and other officials and next they are lauded such as now because of a good EBA. Wait till MM gets a promotion its only cos he was on the union people will say he got it. Ive flown with MM and he was a good CSS........
As I remember this CSM was just another example of the cronyism that typified a certain managers style.To be honest I don't think much has changed or ever will as far as the office is concerned.
With that in mind and an EBA up for a vote it might be a good idea to include a new CSM selection process in the document.
Otherwise the same thing will happen time and again and the best candidates for the job will miss out.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Age: 65
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No Im not the CSM in question. Im a syd based FBA.
With comments which followed my post it is clear why we got kicked off this site.
Now peoples views on here are suggesting MM was not a good CSS. Obviously someone who hadnt flown wih him. Was he the best ever? I never said that. I said hewas good as was the other CSM.
You have your opinions I have mine. Lets stop the personal attacks. If you guys are FAAA members Im glad im not a FAAA rep.
When will people in here grow up
.
By the way your right the selection process does have flaws, show me a perfect system, dont think it exists.
With comments which followed my post it is clear why we got kicked off this site.
Now peoples views on here are suggesting MM was not a good CSS. Obviously someone who hadnt flown wih him. Was he the best ever? I never said that. I said hewas good as was the other CSM.
You have your opinions I have mine. Lets stop the personal attacks. If you guys are FAAA members Im glad im not a FAAA rep.
When will people in here grow up
.By the way your right the selection process does have flaws, show me a perfect system, dont think it exists.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: crew rest
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
left 4 primary, A lot of people know who you are talking about and its not fair that you post his name his skills are subjective I thinks its best you delete the reference to his nickname.
After all he is a colleague and like him or not he doesn't deserve what you have written.
After all he is a colleague and like him or not he doesn't deserve what you have written.