Mega Merged: Qantas Long Haul Cabin Crew Eba8 Negotiations
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L4Primary
The EBA result had nothing to do with the election result. If Howard had won the result was still going to be the same.
Please attend a forthcoming meeting and you will understand what i mean.
At those FAAA meeting that you refer to.... MM said at each of those meetings that the challenge facing L/H was not going to be different, irrespective of who would win the election.
The excellent EBA result is due to the pragmatic decisions of MM and his team.... it was all about making the necessary changes to make L/H more cost effective.
Without those adjustments..... there would be no EBA to announce. Qantas would have then have transferred all growth to the newly established Qantas Cabin Crew Australia (QCCA) and a million Kevin Rudd's would not have saved us.
Don't misunderstand what i am saying L4Primary, as i too was ecstatic over the Labor victory. The labor victory does not mean that Kevin Rudd will force Qantas to use existing L/H crew....... the EBA8 outcome is soley related to the fact that new conditions and rates of pay for new starters, meant that Qantas could now profitably deploy massive new work to L/H AND ALSO SUBSIDISE you and me.
The FAAA made that clear to almost a 1000 crew at its meetings in September.
Please attend a forthcoming meeting and you will understand what i mean.
At those FAAA meeting that you refer to.... MM said at each of those meetings that the challenge facing L/H was not going to be different, irrespective of who would win the election.
The excellent EBA result is due to the pragmatic decisions of MM and his team.... it was all about making the necessary changes to make L/H more cost effective.
Without those adjustments..... there would be no EBA to announce. Qantas would have then have transferred all growth to the newly established Qantas Cabin Crew Australia (QCCA) and a million Kevin Rudd's would not have saved us.
Don't misunderstand what i am saying L4Primary, as i too was ecstatic over the Labor victory. The labor victory does not mean that Kevin Rudd will force Qantas to use existing L/H crew....... the EBA8 outcome is soley related to the fact that new conditions and rates of pay for new starters, meant that Qantas could now profitably deploy massive new work to L/H AND ALSO SUBSIDISE you and me.
The FAAA made that clear to almost a 1000 crew at its meetings in September.
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Keg
An interesting scenario Keg..... but that's all it is a scenario...in other words speculation and crystal ball gazing.
Whilst, philosophically i probably agree with your sentiment; the problem is that the Int FAAA does not have the luxury of entertaining your sentiment.
The FAAA had to deal with reality. Reality looks like this...... 1500 L/H crew made redundant since 2001.... why???? because we are the most expensive and because others, like S/H FAAA Officials commenced a spiral downwards , leading a wage freeze in 2002 and culminating with a blatant "grab" for international work in 2003 by going out of their way to secure International work via their "inferior" conditions vis-a-vis L/H.
A stupid and masochistic approach would have been for L/H FAAA , to ignore the fact that we were about to be made redundant due to "others" being more aligned to market conditions. Whist your suggestion of collective suicide for L/H crew might appeal to you Keg( it is a safe assumption you are a S/H FAAA Official) it would not be an attractive option for 3000 L/H crew and their partners and kids.
The other reality you conveniently overlook Keg is this, not ONE extra permanent good quality job was going to be created in L/H under our current T&C's. The result of the in-principle EBA8 means 2000 Aussie full time jobs will be created and these jobs will be significantly better quality jobs than Jetstar Int, MAM casual or indeed almost full time S/H jobs.
Bear in mind a new person employed in L/H under the proposed new scale can also be promoted to a CSM position under the new scale that will pay $70,000 pa...significantly more than a S/H CSM for example.
Before you next hypothesise with further scenarios Keg, at least build a logical rather than a misleading argument.
Whilst, philosophically i probably agree with your sentiment; the problem is that the Int FAAA does not have the luxury of entertaining your sentiment.
The FAAA had to deal with reality. Reality looks like this...... 1500 L/H crew made redundant since 2001.... why???? because we are the most expensive and because others, like S/H FAAA Officials commenced a spiral downwards , leading a wage freeze in 2002 and culminating with a blatant "grab" for international work in 2003 by going out of their way to secure International work via their "inferior" conditions vis-a-vis L/H.
A stupid and masochistic approach would have been for L/H FAAA , to ignore the fact that we were about to be made redundant due to "others" being more aligned to market conditions. Whist your suggestion of collective suicide for L/H crew might appeal to you Keg( it is a safe assumption you are a S/H FAAA Official) it would not be an attractive option for 3000 L/H crew and their partners and kids.
The other reality you conveniently overlook Keg is this, not ONE extra permanent good quality job was going to be created in L/H under our current T&C's. The result of the in-principle EBA8 means 2000 Aussie full time jobs will be created and these jobs will be significantly better quality jobs than Jetstar Int, MAM casual or indeed almost full time S/H jobs.
Bear in mind a new person employed in L/H under the proposed new scale can also be promoted to a CSM position under the new scale that will pay $70,000 pa...significantly more than a S/H CSM for example.
Before you next hypothesise with further scenarios Keg, at least build a logical rather than a misleading argument.
Nunc est bibendum
ROFLMAO. I've been accused of many things in the past but a Flight Attendant (and a FAAA union rep as well) is certainly a first. 
Check the profile Guardian and you'll find that my interests are a little more conservative than the average F/A- most of whom I have a great deal of respect for. Thanks for proving the old adage about assumptions though.....or at least the part where it makes an ass out of 'u'. 
It's always an interesting character insight when the response to what is a quite possible medium to long term view by QF is to personally attack the person who put the scenario forward. I should probably also add that you are assuming facts about my motivation and attitude that are clearly not in evidence:
I stated that I didn't think up the scenario and that it came from someone else. I stated that QF may have 'given up' this battle in order to win the war. I suggested that the 'great EBA' that others are raving about could well be an oncoming train. Sticking your head in the sand and dismissing the message by flaming the poster may make you feel warm and fuzzy but it won't change the result if that beautiful light of a sign on bonus, etc, etc actually is an oncoming train.
So well done to the FAAA for getting such a great result for their current members. Enjoy it whilst it lasts.
Check the profile Guardian and you'll find that my interests are a little more conservative than the average F/A- most of whom I have a great deal of respect for. Thanks for proving the old adage about assumptions though.....or at least the part where it makes an ass out of 'u'. It's always an interesting character insight when the response to what is a quite possible medium to long term view by QF is to personally attack the person who put the scenario forward. I should probably also add that you are assuming facts about my motivation and attitude that are clearly not in evidence:
Whist your suggestion of collective suicide for L/H crew might appeal to you Keg....
The other reality you conveniently overlook Keg is this....
Before you next hypothesise with further scenarios Keg, at least build a logical rather than a misleading argument.
So well done to the FAAA for getting such a great result for their current members. Enjoy it whilst it lasts.
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All stand for Micheal the great
Well done FAAA L/H, you've proven your smart and silenced the knockers with a well thought out campaign.
80 CSM's required??? do you think we have 80 of the high standard required in our ranks.
80 CSM's required??? do you think we have 80 of the high standard required in our ranks.
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Keg
Keg
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Firstly my apologies.... i will accept your assertion that you are not a flight attendant.... your profile after all does say a first officer and of course all profiles on here are always truthful.
Secondly, if you are a first officer, it explains the silly propositions you espouse whether they be your original thought or whether they be begged, stolen or borrowed.
Thirdly, a unions role is to firstly protect those it represents then it can entertain the luxury of ethereal and philosophical discussions.
Finally, stick to what you know, don't worry about oncoming trains but rather concentrate on that flightdeck.
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Firstly my apologies.... i will accept your assertion that you are not a flight attendant.... your profile after all does say a first officer and of course all profiles on here are always truthful.
Secondly, if you are a first officer, it explains the silly propositions you espouse whether they be your original thought or whether they be begged, stolen or borrowed.
Thirdly, a unions role is to firstly protect those it represents then it can entertain the luxury of ethereal and philosophical discussions.
Finally, stick to what you know, don't worry about oncoming trains but rather concentrate on that flightdeck.
Nunc est bibendum
Guardian, you're obviously not a wide reader on PPRUNE otherwise you would not only know that my profile is spot on but you'd probably have my name and background also. (Don't start searching now....it's too late!)
You can label them 'silly propositions' all you like but I see nothing in your comments that discuss whether or not the scenario I borrowed may be QF's 'end game'.
I agree entirely about the role of a union. I guess the difference between you and I is that my view is slightly longer term. I don't look at the next 3-5 years as to what only I can get out of a deal but the next 15-20 and what it does for all of us. It's why I and 42% of my colleagues voted 'no' to a Singapore base for future S/Os. Besides, if I say that those who follow me have no value, how can I expect them to value me in the future when I'm in the minority?
Finally, you assume falsely that I 'worry' about your oncoming train. Nothing could be further from the truth. I can guarantee that as ever, my concentration remains firmly on the flight deck and that sight of the collective FAAA heads in the sand with a rapidly approaching light at the end of a tunnel is nothing more than an interesting side show.
Denial.....not just a river in Egypt.....it's a fricking ocean (with apologies to Ellen Pompeo and Meredith Grety).
You can label them 'silly propositions' all you like but I see nothing in your comments that discuss whether or not the scenario I borrowed may be QF's 'end game'.
I agree entirely about the role of a union. I guess the difference between you and I is that my view is slightly longer term. I don't look at the next 3-5 years as to what only I can get out of a deal but the next 15-20 and what it does for all of us. It's why I and 42% of my colleagues voted 'no' to a Singapore base for future S/Os. Besides, if I say that those who follow me have no value, how can I expect them to value me in the future when I'm in the minority?
Finally, you assume falsely that I 'worry' about your oncoming train. Nothing could be further from the truth. I can guarantee that as ever, my concentration remains firmly on the flight deck and that sight of the collective FAAA heads in the sand with a rapidly approaching light at the end of a tunnel is nothing more than an interesting side show.
Denial.....not just a river in Egypt.....it's a fricking ocean (with apologies to Ellen Pompeo and Meredith Grety).
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Hey guys,
Instead of being angry and this whole LH vs SH thing. Maybe you should direct your anger towards those people who are non FAAA members, pay no subs and yet will receive all the benefits of this EBA (both in improved pay and conditions). They to me are the real enemy.
These people just sit back, watch, are not out of pocket and yet reap all the same benefits as a fully paid up FAAA member. I flew with a young girl recently (full time LH Syd based), who was bragging that she paid nothing and yet gained everything that the Union worked hard for.
Instead of being angry and this whole LH vs SH thing. Maybe you should direct your anger towards those people who are non FAAA members, pay no subs and yet will receive all the benefits of this EBA (both in improved pay and conditions). They to me are the real enemy.
These people just sit back, watch, are not out of pocket and yet reap all the same benefits as a fully paid up FAAA member. I flew with a young girl recently (full time LH Syd based), who was bragging that she paid nothing and yet gained everything that the Union worked hard for.
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To Peanut pusher,
The high quality required??? I thought the prerequisite was to work on the BOS desk and be a mate of Fat Boy Slim.
It's probably a good time to invest in a shoe factory, Florsheim? Doc Marten? or maybe invest in the company that makes spare parts for the trash compactor.
Actually, I'd be more suprised if you could find a serviceable trash compactor on one of our planes. Damn, my evil plan has already been foiled
The high quality required??? I thought the prerequisite was to work on the BOS desk and be a mate of Fat Boy Slim.
It's probably a good time to invest in a shoe factory, Florsheim? Doc Marten? or maybe invest in the company that makes spare parts for the trash compactor.
Actually, I'd be more suprised if you could find a serviceable trash compactor on one of our planes. Damn, my evil plan has already been foiled
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Peanut Pusher can I ask a question..and to any one else out there.
I have read time and time again about CSS and CSM quality. What makes someone at QF, have the right skills and attributes to become a CSM, and to have the crew work with them to reach a common end goal. What do you crew want. I know the brown nosers get the gig in 50% of the cases (but that is big business for you)
The reason I ask is that I have 11 years flying of which I spent 3 as a Purser for a UK company (Full Service), and now that 80 new CSM are required I am just wondering if you would give the same respect to a new CSM member with say 4 years experience of would you not feel confident at all flying with them based on their decisions...
Just curious (no I am not a spy, I don't work for QF, I am not a Union rep)
I have read time and time again about CSS and CSM quality. What makes someone at QF, have the right skills and attributes to become a CSM, and to have the crew work with them to reach a common end goal. What do you crew want. I know the brown nosers get the gig in 50% of the cases (but that is big business for you)
The reason I ask is that I have 11 years flying of which I spent 3 as a Purser for a UK company (Full Service), and now that 80 new CSM are required I am just wondering if you would give the same respect to a new CSM member with say 4 years experience of would you not feel confident at all flying with them based on their decisions...
Just curious (no I am not a spy, I don't work for QF, I am not a Union rep)
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Apologies Keg
Keg,
Guardian 1 has been a great crew advocate for years.This EBA is and can be an emotional issue....with time his posts should be seen as the responses of a passionate person and not an angry ostrich.
QF management are Macchiavellian if nothing else.The scenario you quote is plausible.Around 5 or 600 people will most likely leave over the next 5 years.For those and many others this EBA represents a good deal.
Guardian 1 has been a great crew advocate for years.This EBA is and can be an emotional issue....with time his posts should be seen as the responses of a passionate person and not an angry ostrich.
QF management are Macchiavellian if nothing else.The scenario you quote is plausible.Around 5 or 600 people will most likely leave over the next 5 years.For those and many others this EBA represents a good deal.
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surfside6
Thanks for your description of me
You are right , i am passionate and hopefully not an ostrich...to begin with i never bury my head in the sand lol
It almost appears you are making an educated guess as to my identity surfside..... as i am about yours.
But remember on these anonymous forums it can be very difficult, most of the time to really identify who a person is.
What annoys me at times is the deliberate misrepresentation that occurs at times in here, whilst i obviously realise people can hold genuinely held different views.
Surfside, your contribution though has been consistently thoughtful and logical.
Keg i hope i didn't unsettle you too much..... i'm sure i didn't.
You are right , i am passionate and hopefully not an ostrich...to begin with i never bury my head in the sand lol
It almost appears you are making an educated guess as to my identity surfside..... as i am about yours.
But remember on these anonymous forums it can be very difficult, most of the time to really identify who a person is.
What annoys me at times is the deliberate misrepresentation that occurs at times in here, whilst i obviously realise people can hold genuinely held different views.
Surfside, your contribution though has been consistently thoughtful and logical.
Keg i hope i didn't unsettle you too much..... i'm sure i didn't.
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Just a question regarding this EBA and Work(No)Choices.
As it wont be until at least mid year when the new Government take control of the Senate and start to dismantle the revolting workplace laws, what does it mean for this EBA and indeed even the upcoming SH EBA if it is ratified before Work Choices is abolished? There will be obviously be a long process to go through for new work place laws to introduced so will the current Work Choice rules apply for the life of this EBA??
Just interested to know any possible repurcussions down the track in light of this.
As it wont be until at least mid year when the new Government take control of the Senate and start to dismantle the revolting workplace laws, what does it mean for this EBA and indeed even the upcoming SH EBA if it is ratified before Work Choices is abolished? There will be obviously be a long process to go through for new work place laws to introduced so will the current Work Choice rules apply for the life of this EBA??
Just interested to know any possible repurcussions down the track in light of this.
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On face value this seems like a great deal. However, with the record of the company towards us, I can only feel a great sense of unease as to what the hidden agenda may be. You cannot trust QF as far as you could kick them. So why are they so happy about this deal when it looks as though they have caved in to us?
My personal concerns;
As to the foreign bases, the cap of 25% will appear to indicate a massive increase in the numbers of foreign workers. If they increase the AKL base dramatically, is it possible this base will undertake a larger portion of the States flying leaving us with more regionals, ie. less pay, less overtime?
As for the 380, it is implied in one of the articles I read in the paper that Qantas has stated it will be exclusively crewed by members of the new Cabin Crew Company. Is it possible this will exclude us current longhaulers? What will this mean for long range flying in 3 years from now?
I also have some serious reservations along the lines of others here that the divide and conquer strategy is alive and well and this will possibly be the final hurrah for us longhaul crew. The company is indicating it will massively increase longhaul numbers as quick as possible, and within 5 years the B scale crew will outnumber the A scale crew most probably. When this happens all I can see is payback big time. It is hardly likely that those who do the same job for more hours/less pay will be willing to fight to protect us. Rather, they will all see us as people who have sold them out to protect ourselves, so they will follow the lead and do the same to us in return - protect themselves at our expense.
I believe that the election has really changed nothing. The belief among many that QF are scared of us and a Labor government is misleading. The chances of us all going on strike are remote, and with the way the current workforce is structured it is hardly likely we could bring the airline to a halt. Sure we could disrupt it, but somehow I think QF would love to see this happen to further alienate ourselves, and cause more division among crew.
So I am left feeling like this is a great deal, but deep down there is a lot of concern that surely there are some hidden agendas, and a few aces up the sleeve of the company. There is a possibility that we could be about to get some very nasty surprises in the way the detail is interpreted.
The fact that we are responsible for a B scale is also something that weighs heavily on my mind. Can we prevent it? Perhaps not. However, it will eventually result in the death of conditions as we know it. How long that takes I don't know. But it will eventually.
So while I think the union has done well, the jury will not have all the evidence to find the parties guilty or innocent until anther 1 or 2 years down the track.
My personal concerns;
As to the foreign bases, the cap of 25% will appear to indicate a massive increase in the numbers of foreign workers. If they increase the AKL base dramatically, is it possible this base will undertake a larger portion of the States flying leaving us with more regionals, ie. less pay, less overtime?
As for the 380, it is implied in one of the articles I read in the paper that Qantas has stated it will be exclusively crewed by members of the new Cabin Crew Company. Is it possible this will exclude us current longhaulers? What will this mean for long range flying in 3 years from now?
I also have some serious reservations along the lines of others here that the divide and conquer strategy is alive and well and this will possibly be the final hurrah for us longhaul crew. The company is indicating it will massively increase longhaul numbers as quick as possible, and within 5 years the B scale crew will outnumber the A scale crew most probably. When this happens all I can see is payback big time. It is hardly likely that those who do the same job for more hours/less pay will be willing to fight to protect us. Rather, they will all see us as people who have sold them out to protect ourselves, so they will follow the lead and do the same to us in return - protect themselves at our expense.
I believe that the election has really changed nothing. The belief among many that QF are scared of us and a Labor government is misleading. The chances of us all going on strike are remote, and with the way the current workforce is structured it is hardly likely we could bring the airline to a halt. Sure we could disrupt it, but somehow I think QF would love to see this happen to further alienate ourselves, and cause more division among crew.
So I am left feeling like this is a great deal, but deep down there is a lot of concern that surely there are some hidden agendas, and a few aces up the sleeve of the company. There is a possibility that we could be about to get some very nasty surprises in the way the detail is interpreted.
The fact that we are responsible for a B scale is also something that weighs heavily on my mind. Can we prevent it? Perhaps not. However, it will eventually result in the death of conditions as we know it. How long that takes I don't know. But it will eventually.
So while I think the union has done well, the jury will not have all the evidence to find the parties guilty or innocent until anther 1 or 2 years down the track.
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Southside,
I very well thought out and considered commentary. One that i think is balanced and without unneccessary emotion.
At the FAAA meetings these are obviously matters that will be raised by F/A's and discussed by the negotiating team.
I would be extremely surprised if these were not all considered by the Team and dealt with in the EBA and accompanying documentation.
All of your assumptions are logical and more than likely have been dealt with in the structure , content and intents clauses in the EBA.
Go to the many meetings and dont leave until all of your apprehensions have been comprehensively been answered and dealt with
Thanks for a thoughtful and intelligent commentary
I very well thought out and considered commentary. One that i think is balanced and without unneccessary emotion.
At the FAAA meetings these are obviously matters that will be raised by F/A's and discussed by the negotiating team.
I would be extremely surprised if these were not all considered by the Team and dealt with in the EBA and accompanying documentation.
All of your assumptions are logical and more than likely have been dealt with in the structure , content and intents clauses in the EBA.
Go to the many meetings and dont leave until all of your apprehensions have been comprehensively been answered and dealt with
Thanks for a thoughtful and intelligent commentary
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to whatever,
work choices applies to awa's whereas we have an eba.
keg, i see the same problems down the track as u, maybe a little different in the timeframe. with about 15 years left before super becomes available i believe my concerns are legitimate let alone those with 20+years to go... still lots of those still flying
to peanut pusher
leave our knockers alone
work choices applies to awa's whereas we have an eba.
keg, i see the same problems down the track as u, maybe a little different in the timeframe. with about 15 years left before super becomes available i believe my concerns are legitimate let alone those with 20+years to go... still lots of those still flying
to peanut pusher
leave our knockers alone
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Peanutpusher,
Left4primary is right.
Since when has "ability" been a prerequisite for the job?
A pathological willingness to ingratiate oneself to the present management regime is undeniably all that that will be required.
You allude to, "Operational ability"?
Don't forget. This lot of clowns ONLY have the ability to promote images of themselves................
Left4primary is right.
Since when has "ability" been a prerequisite for the job?
A pathological willingness to ingratiate oneself to the present management regime is undeniably all that that will be required.
You allude to, "Operational ability"?
Don't forget. This lot of clowns ONLY have the ability to promote images of themselves................
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Promotion
The EBA allows for BFA with four years flying experience to be promoted to the CSS position and then, if positions be come available,to be promoted to CSM.The time frame could be as little as 12 months.
There are currently around 200 CSS' who are Australian based.With 80 positions becoming available they would have a 50/50 chance of promotion.
Factor in the BFAs and that is reduced.
So slog your guts out in Y/C,gather all the experience..apply for a promotion and get beaten out by someone who has no experience of working in Y/C.
Absolutely Brilliant....The promotional process will not be transparent.You will be chosen ...not promoted
There are currently around 200 CSS' who are Australian based.With 80 positions becoming available they would have a 50/50 chance of promotion.
Factor in the BFAs and that is reduced.
So slog your guts out in Y/C,gather all the experience..apply for a promotion and get beaten out by someone who has no experience of working in Y/C.
Absolutely Brilliant....The promotional process will not be transparent.You will be chosen ...not promoted
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Quote- "So slog your guts out in Y/C,gather all the experience..apply for a promotion and get beaten out by someone who has no experience of working in Y/C."
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Exactly what has happened during the last rounds of CSS promotion given that the VAST proportion of those promoted came from the BFA ranks.
Gee, they must miss the luxury of sitting on their arses at L4/R4 doing nothing while the troops in Y/C are run off their feet.............
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Exactly what has happened during the last rounds of CSS promotion given that the VAST proportion of those promoted came from the BFA ranks.
Gee, they must miss the luxury of sitting on their arses at L4/R4 doing nothing while the troops in Y/C are run off their feet.............
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Eba Meetings Called
29 November 2007
Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants
EBA MEMBERSHIP MEETINGS
I announce the following details of Members’ Meetings to discuss the recently announced In-Principle EBA8 Agreement.
SYDNEY
3, 4, 5, 6, 7 December Holiday Inn – Cnr Bourke & O’Riordan St Mascot (10 am -Lawrence Hargraves Room).
12, 13,14,20,21 December – FAAA Office 20 Ewan St Mascot – 10 am.
2, 3, 4,10,11, January – FAAA Office 20 Ewan St Mascot – 10 am.
BRISBANE (VENUE TO BE ANNOUNCED SHORTLY).
17, 18, 19 December - 10.30 am
9 January – 10.30 am
MELBOURNE (VENUE TO BE ANNOUNCED SHORTLY).
10, 11 December – 10.30 am
7, 8 January – 10.30am
The FAAA urges all members to attend a meeting in order that you are fully informed about the significant and important features of the proposed EBA before a vote occurs as required by Law. Most importantly this will also be your opportunity to ask questions about the Agreement.
Written and authorised by Michael Mijatov – Secretary International Division.
Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants
EBA MEMBERSHIP MEETINGS
I announce the following details of Members’ Meetings to discuss the recently announced In-Principle EBA8 Agreement.
SYDNEY
3, 4, 5, 6, 7 December Holiday Inn – Cnr Bourke & O’Riordan St Mascot (10 am -Lawrence Hargraves Room).
12, 13,14,20,21 December – FAAA Office 20 Ewan St Mascot – 10 am.
2, 3, 4,10,11, January – FAAA Office 20 Ewan St Mascot – 10 am.
BRISBANE (VENUE TO BE ANNOUNCED SHORTLY).
17, 18, 19 December - 10.30 am
9 January – 10.30 am
MELBOURNE (VENUE TO BE ANNOUNCED SHORTLY).
10, 11 December – 10.30 am
7, 8 January – 10.30am
The FAAA urges all members to attend a meeting in order that you are fully informed about the significant and important features of the proposed EBA before a vote occurs as required by Law. Most importantly this will also be your opportunity to ask questions about the Agreement.
Written and authorised by Michael Mijatov – Secretary International Division.