Question to JetStar pilots

[Keg]

So confirm for me the details then please.

Four sims?

How many sectors does the J* Checking and Training manual require for command training and check to line?

[permFO]

Max your post is spot on in that the pilot is the last line of defense and it is recognised (even within J*)that the training received by some from Alteon has been poor. However the training received by those who went to AirNZ has been second to none and their product has been up to a standard that you would expect from a legacy carrier. There are highly experienced pilots within J* who are on the ball and putting systems in place that will counter the deficiencies of the external training providers.

Unfortunately Goeing Boeing and Keg are perpetuating the myth put out by AIPA that J* Command training is 4 sims and 6 sectors. If you truly believe that then it is not surprising that mainline pilots think they have the superior aviating skills. If you stop and think about it though, doesn't it seem ridiculous that any airline in Australia would put people in the LHS with 15hours total in that seat!

Why do you think that the professionalism and standards of the J* training department is inferior to mainline? Most of the managers within J* are ex-Ansett and some of them even trained mainline pilots in QF sims as contractors so I really don't think there can be any argument about the standards applied or expected.

I witnessed some very ordinary performances by mainline Captains and I have also witnessed some very professional performances in J* and vice versa. When J* pilots are no longer viewed as the "enemy" then I think you will find that all pilots of the Qantas Group can present a cohesive message to those that hold the purse strings.

[VH-JJW]

'I've found that when groups of pilots join an airline that there may be a wide variation in experience and skill level but after a few years of line experience the differences become negligible.'

GB - This is highly dependant on timframes. If for example you take the experiece of some of the ex Alirone or RAAF pilots in Qantas then I highly doubt that the differences are 'neglible' after 'a few years', especially when compared to a GA or cadet pilot.

You will, however, find that on average most of these pilots have become 'assimilated' and simply behave as they are treated, mushrooms.

A good mate of mine is a highly respected former military pilot whose services are greatly sought after in the civilian world ( deliberately vague as his specific quals WILL identify him). However, when he is at 'work' as a QF pilot he is at times literally treated as an idiot.

I truly doubt that after a few years the difference between *&%$# and most other QF pilots would be negligible.

What I do not doubt however is that some (most?) QF pilots would not bother finding out the qualifications and experience levels within their crew, but instead would make a highly prejudiced and myopic judgement based solely on rank.

I do not like reading the crap posted here about BKK. It was a mistake in an otherwise good history. I do however see that CRM and crew co-ordination played a filtering role in this unfortunate accident. It is suprising therefore to hear that many of the CRM issues still remain.

[Keg]

Unfortunately Goeing Boeing and Keg are perpetuating the myth put out by AIPA that J* Command training is 4 sims and 6 sectors.

Easy tiger. Read my questions again and the statement of the person before me. It was flyingins who made the reference to 16 sim hours. That's four sims is it not?

I wanted to know what the number of sectors of line training is. It's apparently not six so educate us. What is the sector requirement in the J* check and training manual. Lets compare them apples- out of interest sake, nothing less. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that yours is an error rather than a deliberate attempt to show (again) that the big mean nasty QF drivers are ganging up on you with false stories. I also note that neither yours nor JJW's post actually answers the question.

JJW, probably the best post I've read from you. I think that what GB was getting at was that after a few years in QF, the difference in ability to operate the aircraft to QF's expectations are negligble. I meet the company standard but I still know there are guys around who can fly circles around me every day of the week. Many of them are S/Os. I'll name names if you like because I don't really hold 'pride' in that way. I will note though that occasionally they indicate that I have something to offer them considering I've spent the last ten years in the F/O seat of QF aeroplanes. I'll also note that there are also times when they feel there is nothing I can offer them. I give them a wry smile anyway!

One seperate thing though. I have a rabid dislike of 'outsourcing' training to the candidate and permFO's comments about the standard differing markedly between Alteon and AirNZ is a case in point. Initial endorsement should be treated seriously, not considered a stamp in the log book that means anything between two very wide boundaries. J* management obviously doesn't take it seriously because they appear to not give two hoots where the endorsement comes from. It is this minimalist attitude that frustrates QF drivers. Our training isn't perfect (and having been involved in the CRM program for a few years it's all too obvious) but the QF I first joined was never a believer in minimalist training. Whether or not that training was first class, better than elsewhere, delivered a better product, etc, was never the issue in this discussion. It's always been about management attitude to training and skills and what this means for both the individual pilots, the respective group 'silos' and the piloting profession in general.

The issue is not J* pilots, the issue is the management attitude. We are not the enemy here.....and nor do we consider J* pilots to be the enemy- even if sometimes we don't word things as nicely as we should. max's second post was far better than his first one!

[Going Boeing]

flyingins

Please pull your heads out of the sand and try not to be so blindly guided by utter gibberish.

I received my info second hand and was unable to verify the number of sims and sectors, which is why I invited input from JQ trainers. I did not attack the JQ pilots but made observations about potential pitfalls if there was only six sectors during command training. We are all aware of the swiss cheese model and I, like every pilot, don't want the holes to line up.

-JJW

Most stories relayed by pilots are the "juicy" ones and it sounds like your mate has flown with a couple of captains who haven't displayed normal people skills by "treating him like an idiot" and having no interest in crew members previous experience/qualifications. Every airline has its share of pilots like this but from my experience in QF, these guys are in the very small minority. By the tone of your remarks, it sounds like your view of QF pilots has been tainted by these stories - a shame because it's not a true assessment.

[Condition lever]

Keg,

Just so we can compare apples with apples - what are the QF training requirements for a FO on the 737 to progress to a command on the 737?

Do current FOs on the 737 hold command endorsements on the 737?

You are completely incorrect in your assumption that J* management are happy with the quality of the Alteon training. A manager at J* (who is no longer working there) signed a 10 year (I believe) contract that has locked the company in (perhaps the same guy that purchased A330-200 in a domestic config). I did the Alteon A320 conversion and was not happy with it either.

Having done the QF A330 conversion as well I would only rate it marginally better than the Alteon one.

[Bula]

Max I get where you coming from and there is alot of truths is what you are saying but I think you need to a little further into what Graham Braithwaite is talking about in your text books.

The unfortunate truth that some people seem not to fatham is that you dont have to be old, have a wealth of experience after starting in tigermoths, be around since the Wright brother or have Grey hair to be a pilot. Porno mustaches and cockpit resource management went out with the dinosaurs and so did some of the ideas being thrown around this forum.

I am happy with the training I received.

Training by OSMOSIS... Works well in Qantas because their S/O Cadets have ZERO experience. There is only so much a person can learn, and the approach and landing phase requires a more tactile and practical approach.

The fact that companies have long since changed from spending everything necessary to save one life, to a risk hazard concept is a fact of modern aviation... and its not the pilots fault. Aviation is now a business involving trunk loads of money. The days of senior pilot running companies how "they think" it should be run is over and I just wish people would accept that.

You speak of culture, and please lets not kid ourselves. Yes there are a a few of us who arn't old grey guardian of aviation. We don't have the length and breadth of experience that there is in a legacy carrier. But funnily enough that culture has been in-ground since marxism, where the concepts of the culture you speak of had only been around really since the early 1990s. So which company will embody the essence of risk/hazard management. The legacy carrier with the old hats, or the penny pincher's of a modern low cost carrier.

Plainly MEL's are developed by the manufacturer, Pilots are the last line of defence, and an efficient, slender operation can be a safe one, ....... and no-one in J* are struggling to pay their bills.

[CaptCloudbuster]

".....and no-one in J* are struggling to pay their bills."

That’s not what a commuting Jetstar FO posted on QREWROOM. He said in a remarkably frank (and refreshing) post that he lives from pay to pay and could not survive without an overdraft...

[VH-JJW]

Be careful what you take at face value.

May I suggest that this was not his sole source of income, and yet he is still unable to pay the bills.

May I also suggest that he may have had a personal agenda in making those posts. The particular pilot concerned is very unhappy about not being given a A330 command whilst QF MOU F/O's are moving right to left.

There are always two sides to a story

[Keg]

Condition lever, I hope you're not trying to deflect the issue here though. This is now the third time that I've asked about the J* command training and no one has posted the answer with everyone appearing to to change the subject or angle it a different way. Given that I don't fly the 737 I wouldn't have a clue what the command training entails. I'll look it up for you and post up.

Interesting comment about the QF A330 training. A couple of colleagues of mine also reckon it's the worst conversion course they've done in QF. This was a few years ago when we first got the aircraft and my understanding that it has improved in that time.

[TineeTim]

JJW,

One thing you can take at face value is the payslip he posted on Qroom. Can't argue with that and it made for sobering reading.

FYI 737 F/Os are command endorsed.

737 F/O to Cpt would be about 7 sims min ( 28 hours)

Min sectors 30 (more if requested by the training Capt)

4 sectors check to line

[Going Boeing]

Having done the QF A330 conversion as well I would only rate it marginally better than the Alteon one.

At the time of purchasing the A330, Airbus introduced a new training package for the A330 which QF purchased. It turned out to be a dud and Airbus returned to its original package. As the board has not made funds available to purchase the other package, Qantas is stuck with the dud one (with some in-house improvements).

The particular pilot concerned is very unhappy about not being given a A330 command whilst QF MOU F/O's are moving right to left.

No need for further concern as a very senior source has said that no more QF pilots will be released under the MOU as QF cannot spare any more.

[max autobrakes]

Thank you ,
finally some proper discussion and some facts laid bare on the table for all to better draw informed opinions from.
Now one and all, please read my first post again, does the tone now sound any different after the rush of blood to the brain has normalised.

Rather than a pissing contest to see who's appendage is larger shall we look at some of the facts please.

Tinee Tim wrote 28hrs of sims and minimum 30 sectors F/O 737 Qantas

flyingins wrote 16hrs of sims 62 sectors as an example for JetStar

I asked a mate who has done initial command training on the 737 in Qantas, he came from a wide body F/O position, he reported that he did 70hrs of sim training that included fixed base sims and 61 sectors of line training this figure included the 4 sector check.His respose was that he had 15 years of jet experience under his belt and close to 15,000hrs and he said that the training was spot on and he said he believed any thing less would not have allowed himself to feel totally at ease and able to handle just about anything on his first sector as a captain.

Now putting that into context with my original post, I know there are exceptional pilots in JetStar, some JetStar pilots are mates of mine ,however not every JetStar pilot has the benefit of an extensive training path coutesy of and paid for by a Legacy carrier or another LCC or Airforce ,what pressures does that place on a Training captain when one has to take into account of a trainees ability to pay for training?.Can every JetStar pilot straight out of GA or every JetStar captain who was flying turboprops one year and heavy jets the next due to the rapid expansion in the company truely say that if more sim training was offered prior to flying on the line they would have felt much more comfortable on their first flight.Now when one puts that question into context with the concept of pilots paying for their training ,wether that be up front, or through a bond arrangement/ salary sacrificing ,one can begin to see how this money saving idea from management is not conducive to worlds best practice from a risk aversion point of view.See wording of my first post.

As a final thought on this topic a Training captain friend of mine said the following, "at the end of the day when it comes down to wether or not I'll sign a pilot off on his final check to line ,I ask myself the following question, "would I be happy to send my wife and kids off with this pilot tomorrow", if the answer is yes than a tick goes in the box and a congratatorial handshake offered."

[Condition lever]

max - you have to ask if your mate who did 70 hrs of sim to achieve his initial command if he was transferring from the RHS of a 737 or perhaps from a 747 et al. It is more than understandable if he was not type rated at the time (holding a command endorsement on the 737 as a FO as TineeTim indicates) that he would require 70 odd hrs.

What is the length of training required for a seat swap and command upgrade? Again TineeTim has indicated QF use 28hrs in the sim. I am not arguing for or against longer sim training - just that if you are currently flying the type as a FO you may require less training than someone who is not current and doing their initial upgrade - again apples v apples.

Keg - not trying to deflect the issue at all - I don't know what the J* training package is, I will attempt to find out.

[toolish]

So the results are Qf 12 more sim hrs and Jq 32 more sectors (approx 60 more hours) so I guess just to continue with this ridiculous pissing competition we need to know how many JQ line hours equal one Qf sim hour.

[Tankengine]

QF 737 RHS to LHS [2 years ago so prob same now, or even more due HUD and RNP training]:

12 sims then 30 sectors training, 6 sector pre-final, 4 sector final.

Training in sim increased 3-4 years ago to include 600 series Command management sims simmilar to cyclic loft sims.
line training happens very quickly due to 4 sector days. Sims and line includes both 400 and 800 series.

[blow.n.gasket]

Careful Toolish you don't end up looking foolish.
I've been following this thread for awhile now and I think I can see where old Max is headed.
After 62 sectors you end up with a Line competent pilot, and so you should!
However ,what is a simulator after all?
It's a training tool used to expose pilots to situations and aircraft configurations and hopefully teach and equip them to handle non normal situations if they should ,god forbid, happen to experience such events on the line.
16 hrs sim training ,that = 4 sims.Can I assume that includes a sim check?
That leaves 12hrs of training = 3 sims.If not then 16 hrs / 4 sims is still not much time to cover electric non normals, hydraulic non normals, Flight control non normals ,practise NDB approaches, VOR approaches, ILS approaches, Engine out take offs and landings, Engine out handling , upper airwork, etc, etc.What if a recruit needs to repeat an exercise or needs more training to achieve a pass does he get charged more?
Is the reason limited Simulator time is allocated, in order to achieve an endorsement cost that was not too expensive? The old supply and demand conundrum?
Is this what Old Max was hinting at when he first said" training to a standard not to a cost?"
I don't know? Can anyone enlighten me please.

[AnQrKa]

Dragonair.

Initial command, no jet command experience before.

4 sim rides.

Approx 16 line training sectors.

Some have done it with total time 5000 hours having spent just 1000 hours in the right seat of a jet. Less with some airlines in Europe.

China flying - a lot more difficult than domestic oz.

This is a wank of an argument.

I think JQ pilots will cope with the amount of training receive.

[toolish]

BNG,

no argument here, sims are great for what you mentioned should JQ have more, absolutely. I think we should just say "both are trained to a suitable standard" and leave it at that. My point was really about this never ending sledging and pissing contest.