From Air NZ Link. There will be a NZ Pilot Shortage!!!
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The key word here is agenda.
If the agenda is to convince school leavers and students to fork out $80000 to learn to fly at some flying school then there is a pilot shortage. If the agenda is to get the cheapest pilot labour then employers will say something like "What shortage. Look at all the applications we have for pilots who want your job"
Investing in a career in aviation based on what some guy says at a polytech is like putting all your savings into Bridgecorp. Trying to advise the uninitiated to not believe every thing they hear is not whinging. It is sound advice from those who have aready either made the same mistake or seen someone do it.
If the agenda is to convince school leavers and students to fork out $80000 to learn to fly at some flying school then there is a pilot shortage. If the agenda is to get the cheapest pilot labour then employers will say something like "What shortage. Look at all the applications we have for pilots who want your job"
Investing in a career in aviation based on what some guy says at a polytech is like putting all your savings into Bridgecorp. Trying to advise the uninitiated to not believe every thing they hear is not whinging. It is sound advice from those who have aready either made the same mistake or seen someone do it.
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Agenda?
So many conspiracy theorists! It's standard business practice to get labour as cheap as possible. Why pay more if you don't have to? As for getting student loans for flying school - who would do such an idiotic thing? Actually, don't answer that, I know a few idiots who it paid off for, but I suspect they are in the minority. Most of my peers did it the hard way - cleaning a/c in the weekends, working at nights, and flying when they could afford it. When they had enough hours and experience, it was C cat time. Yes, it took about three to four years on average before you could even think CPL, but I know three or four who flew in the islands who did it quicker. Some put up with the RNZAF long enough to get their hours/ratings/exams. The problem with youngsters considering an aviation career these days is that they want everything NOW. I have three daughters (all late teens/early twenties) who were exactly the same, until they realised how much it was going to cost them in the long term, 'coz daddy was not going to pay unless they paid half. And that meant getting a job! Incidentally, none of them are in aviation - I talked them out of it.
Be happy with what you have. The time will come when you are a commodity to the larger airlines. Patience
Be happy with what you have. The time will come when you are a commodity to the larger airlines. Patience
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400,you nailed it right on the head about pilots in NZ labour as cheap as possible. Thats why so many have left or are leaving NZ. Why hang around for Sweat Shop salaries doing some of the longest flights with the most time away from home in the world. Combined with working till age what 70 I guess? To keep the people you need to improve the T and C's
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Labour costs
Hell, I'm enjoying this. Depends on what you want to do. I happen to like the long ToD's. That way wifey doesn't get sick of me. I'll save that for retirement. And I get paid well. The work conditions are some of the better in the world - if you don't believe me check out some of the other airlines' forums. When AirNZ was offering LWOP, I checked out some of the expat positions available, both through brokers and by direct contact. Not only was their basic salary less, but they gave less time off, less sick leave and fewer benefits (with the exception of staff travel). Not to mention the lack of any super scheme. Medical was usually covered as was accomodation allowance. Still didn't work out as much. Plus you had to live in Seoul, Mumbai, Almaty, Mongolia or Tokyo. Wifey told me to shove it, and I did, because I like NZ and having up to 15 days off a month. Talk to most expats, and they would rather be back home, esp. those with kids. Except you can smack them overseas.
The old glory days of super salaries etc are going or have gone, as more and more airlines feel the pinch from high fuel prices, increased competition, aging fleet replacement etc and blah.
And to a certain extent, there has never really been a pilot shortage in NZ, but that depends again on your point of view. What there has been is a shortage of suitable applicants. Not all airlines have the same standards, and what suits one may not suit the other! If you can afford to be picky, why not? The inherent problem in a small place like NZ is that most people in the business of hiring potential applicants have their ears open, and they are very good at weeding out those that are going to be potential whingers, moaners, dissenters or layabouts. So you have to ask yourself if there is a reason why you didn't get the position if you met all the hours and license requirements. Or it may be all the others had more experience. Or it may be that you fell into the trap of opening your trap once too often.
Food for thought
The old glory days of super salaries etc are going or have gone, as more and more airlines feel the pinch from high fuel prices, increased competition, aging fleet replacement etc and blah.And to a certain extent, there has never really been a pilot shortage in NZ, but that depends again on your point of view. What there has been is a shortage of suitable applicants. Not all airlines have the same standards, and what suits one may not suit the other! If you can afford to be picky, why not? The inherent problem in a small place like NZ is that most people in the business of hiring potential applicants have their ears open, and they are very good at weeding out those that are going to be potential whingers, moaners, dissenters or layabouts. So you have to ask yourself if there is a reason why you didn't get the position if you met all the hours and license requirements. Or it may be all the others had more experience. Or it may be that you fell into the trap of opening your trap once too often.
Food for thought
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Or it could be that despite meeting all the hours and licencing requirements and having had tons of heavy turboprop command that not having a university degree means you are not good enough to deserve an interview at the taxpayer supported state airline - what a joke that is...
40 below
40 below
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Uni Degree
Hey 40 Below
If that's the requirement (at the present time) then you gotta fly with it. They make the rules, we just fly the machinery. After all, it's not our train set. It's just another way of reducing the number of applicants to a managable number. I remember when they wouldn't take you if you wore glasses.
If it's any consolation, the degree will be the first requirement to go when they start a full scale recruiting drive. I guess your other option is to do an extramural degree, even if it is 2 or 3 papers per year. At least you could then say you are doing one.................
Finally, despite what Labor have been pushing as their social agenda, all men are NOT created equal, therefore do not have equal opportunities. That means companies can set whatever reqs. they want, as long as they do not breach the Human Rights Act. If you want the job badly enough, do something about it.
I'm not trying to be santimonious about this issue. I agree that a degree should not be a requirement. But it is at this time. So your options are limited
And BTW, the government has made a mint out of AirNZ
If that's the requirement (at the present time) then you gotta fly with it. They make the rules, we just fly the machinery. After all, it's not our train set. It's just another way of reducing the number of applicants to a managable number. I remember when they wouldn't take you if you wore glasses.
If it's any consolation, the degree will be the first requirement to go when they start a full scale recruiting drive. I guess your other option is to do an extramural degree, even if it is 2 or 3 papers per year. At least you could then say you are doing one.................
Finally, despite what Labor have been pushing as their social agenda, all men are NOT created equal, therefore do not have equal opportunities. That means companies can set whatever reqs. they want, as long as they do not breach the Human Rights Act. If you want the job badly enough, do something about it.
I'm not trying to be santimonious about this issue. I agree that a degree should not be a requirement. But it is at this time. So your options are limited
And BTW, the government has made a mint out of AirNZ
Last edited by 400Rulz; 11th Jul 2007 at 12:35. Reason: Parting shot
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Have to agree. 400Rulz has it spot on. Only point I would differ on is that some expat jobs at the moment are offering salaries and benefits way above Air NZ pay, assuming that you have an in-demand type on your licence. At this rate, I'll be joining Haughtney on the beach in Pauanui while guys my age in Air NZ will have another ten years of trudging off to the office in front of them... 
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400, I agree with a lot of what you say but I think Bongo bus driver has a point, Agendas. Irene King has been pushing the pilot shortage barrow for years now in an effort to get young kids through the doors of the flying schools, in this particular case the article seems to impy the a shortage is going to hit NZ in 12 months. I think we all know that it is simply not the case.
The main issue I have is I hope these prospective pilots are given a balanced point of veiw, I hope they are told about, bonds, paying for type ratings, jet lag, union issues, strikes, GA jobs on less than minimum wage, airlines going bankrupt and taking all your holiday pay, and as you say standard business practice to source labour as cheaply as possible. Some of these things you will find in other industrys anyway, but I just hope the not so glamorous parts of the proffesion, are presented. I'm sure however it will be more like, "borrow all the coin to do your licence and there will be a shiny jet/bags of coin at the end of 12 months" You say that you talked your children out of going into aviation, good choice, I will be doing the same, however what about the people that do not have an aviation background/experience to draw upon from which to make an informed decision? I'm sure that most people would make their career choice based upon more than a seminar from a snakeoil salesperson at an aeroclub, but you never know.
I hope some of them read this tread that would be start.
By the way I totally agree with you on the fact that if you dont meet the requirements, (even if a degree is BS to fly a plane), get head and shoulders above your competition by doing sumthing about it.
The main issue I have is I hope these prospective pilots are given a balanced point of veiw, I hope they are told about, bonds, paying for type ratings, jet lag, union issues, strikes, GA jobs on less than minimum wage, airlines going bankrupt and taking all your holiday pay, and as you say standard business practice to source labour as cheaply as possible. Some of these things you will find in other industrys anyway, but I just hope the not so glamorous parts of the proffesion, are presented. I'm sure however it will be more like, "borrow all the coin to do your licence and there will be a shiny jet/bags of coin at the end of 12 months" You say that you talked your children out of going into aviation, good choice, I will be doing the same, however what about the people that do not have an aviation background/experience to draw upon from which to make an informed decision? I'm sure that most people would make their career choice based upon more than a seminar from a snakeoil salesperson at an aeroclub, but you never know.
I hope some of them read this tread that would be start.
By the way I totally agree with you on the fact that if you dont meet the requirements, (even if a degree is BS to fly a plane), get head and shoulders above your competition by doing sumthing about it.
Last edited by Split Flap; 11th Jul 2007 at 21:03.
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Expat Pay
Hey Remoak
Ta. I agree with your point. The problem is getting the correct type ratings on your license, and enough P-i-C time to meet the requirements. While some of the pay and conditions are better on other carriers, these are being eroded with every negotiating round as the non-fixed operating costs go up and competition intensifies. Emirates is a good example. What was a primo expat job has degraded conditions from the original contracts, and this trend will probably continue as long as there are pilots willing to fly for less in order to get a job (or keep a job viz a viz American/Delta/Continental/United). Conversely, their expansion plans necessitate hiring of experienced flight crew - and few would give up an existing job to live in a sandpit!
Then there is the matter of family life and quality of living. I had the dilemma in 1990 of moving to HKG and flying for CX, or staying on the seniority list in NZ, at the same time going through a divorce. Had I gone to CX, I would have made stacks of money, would have had a 744 captaincy after 4 years, but would not have had the quality time with my kids that staying at home afforded me. Each of the pros and cons must be carefully balanced for the individual. What is food to one man is bitter poison to others.
Split Flap - I take your point too. A lot of kids coming out of school hear about "pilot shortages" and think "easy money". We know that is not the case, necessarily. But these decisions should be informed, and it is up to the individual to seek out the necessary information to make such a decision, especially one regarding such large sums of money that comes without a guaranteed job position. If you take the risk and lose, it is wrong to apportion the blame to others if you haven't done your homework
There is no doubt that there will be a worldwide pilot shortage in the next five years. The expansionist plans of some of the asian and middle eastern carriers will lead that demand, so there will be jobs available. But at what personal price? Ultimately, you have to live with the decision or move on. I was happy with mine - it was the right move for me. Would have been a totally different kettle of fish had I had no family....
Rgds
Ta. I agree with your point. The problem is getting the correct type ratings on your license, and enough P-i-C time to meet the requirements. While some of the pay and conditions are better on other carriers, these are being eroded with every negotiating round as the non-fixed operating costs go up and competition intensifies. Emirates is a good example. What was a primo expat job has degraded conditions from the original contracts, and this trend will probably continue as long as there are pilots willing to fly for less in order to get a job (or keep a job viz a viz American/Delta/Continental/United). Conversely, their expansion plans necessitate hiring of experienced flight crew - and few would give up an existing job to live in a sandpit!
Then there is the matter of family life and quality of living. I had the dilemma in 1990 of moving to HKG and flying for CX, or staying on the seniority list in NZ, at the same time going through a divorce. Had I gone to CX, I would have made stacks of money, would have had a 744 captaincy after 4 years, but would not have had the quality time with my kids that staying at home afforded me. Each of the pros and cons must be carefully balanced for the individual. What is food to one man is bitter poison to others.
Split Flap - I take your point too. A lot of kids coming out of school hear about "pilot shortages" and think "easy money". We know that is not the case, necessarily. But these decisions should be informed, and it is up to the individual to seek out the necessary information to make such a decision, especially one regarding such large sums of money that comes without a guaranteed job position. If you take the risk and lose, it is wrong to apportion the blame to others if you haven't done your homework
There is no doubt that there will be a worldwide pilot shortage in the next five years. The expansionist plans of some of the asian and middle eastern carriers will lead that demand, so there will be jobs available. But at what personal price? Ultimately, you have to live with the decision or move on. I was happy with mine - it was the right move for me. Would have been a totally different kettle of fish had I had no family....
Rgds
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I have just been in Hamilton for the last 4 days for "buisness" and I had the opportunity to meet some of New Zealands finest young multi-IFR instructors..They all seemed to agree that there arent many New Zealand born students at their schools anymore but lots of Foreign students are keeping them busy. So I can sort of believe that we will run out of qualified pilots eventually.
How is it that New Zealand has gone so far backwards in the 10 years that I've been flying that the "rich nations" sending their kids out here are India and China???
How is it that New Zealand has gone so far backwards in the 10 years that I've been flying that the "rich nations" sending their kids out here are India and China???
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Part of me wants to see some of the precious attitudes that exist in NZ airline circles take a bit of a kicking..if for no other reason than to realize that some of the best and brightest people have had to find their feet elsewhere (and I don't include myself in that)
In every practical sense there will never be a shortage of wannabe's in NZ, but it looks increasingly like some of the regional operators will feel the bite as guys wanting jet gigs move on. That being said, I personally think it will be a short-term problem.
Outside of NZ and Oz, things just keep going mad....and long may it continue
Remoak mate......3 months into my new job, I got some positive news....looks like maybe a nice Bayliner to go with the Pauanui pad
PM on the way
In every practical sense there will never be a shortage of wannabe's in NZ, but it looks increasingly like some of the regional operators will feel the bite as guys wanting jet gigs move on. That being said, I personally think it will be a short-term problem.
Outside of NZ and Oz, things just keep going mad....and long may it continue
Remoak mate......3 months into my new job, I got some positive news....looks like maybe a nice Bayliner to go with the Pauanui pad
PM on the way
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Just add another log to the fire. I didn't have hours for Air NZ requirements actually I didn't have enough for Air Nelson Eagle or Mount Cook. However with just over 2000hrs total time BA took me onboard and by complete stroke of luck put me in the right hand seat of the 777. We do not have 2nd officers. In a year or so's time I'm looking at an A320 command after around 7-8 yrs. Another 5 yrs later I'll have a 777 command aged prob 37-39. It could come dramtically forward if another runway opens at either LHR or LGW.
Last year I came home six times and had a total of four months in NZ on holiday. With our rostering system we can have complete control over what we do according to senority. I certainly enjoy coming home particularly Paua fritters in Tauranga at the wharf, pig hunting and going to some games at Jade.
My job enables me to have a lifestyle that was not possible in NZ and I know for a fact at the age of 28 I was making more money and flying less hours than my Dad who is F/O on the jumbo for Air NZ. Now the haters out there will point out that the exchange rate makes the difference in salary. Well try being a 2nd officer or even a first officer making what 120-150 trying to buy a 800,000 dollar house in Remuera,Meadowbank, Mission Bay etc with the way house prices and interest rates are going in NZ I reckon its alot harder to get on the property ladder back home on Air NZ pay scales than it is over here. And look what 800,000 buys you in Auckland now.
Currently I'm living in a very small country village in the South Downs fairy similar to something like Fairlie. My rugby club and gliding airfield are on the same paddock and I'm 20 mins drive to the beach.
So not every expat is living in Dubai, Hong Kong or Singapore some of us just quietly tick along being able to get the days off each month through our rostering system, smile and be pleased that we no longer have to be in the dog eat dog world of kiwi aviaition other than when I'm flying down to CHC to whatch Christ's College or Canterbury play rugby.
Its not that bad being an expat and flying for BA. I figure in around 10-15 yrs I'll be 45 I prob leave here and semi retire too farming or growing wine.
Last year I came home six times and had a total of four months in NZ on holiday. With our rostering system we can have complete control over what we do according to senority. I certainly enjoy coming home particularly Paua fritters in Tauranga at the wharf, pig hunting and going to some games at Jade.
My job enables me to have a lifestyle that was not possible in NZ and I know for a fact at the age of 28 I was making more money and flying less hours than my Dad who is F/O on the jumbo for Air NZ. Now the haters out there will point out that the exchange rate makes the difference in salary. Well try being a 2nd officer or even a first officer making what 120-150 trying to buy a 800,000 dollar house in Remuera,Meadowbank, Mission Bay etc with the way house prices and interest rates are going in NZ I reckon its alot harder to get on the property ladder back home on Air NZ pay scales than it is over here. And look what 800,000 buys you in Auckland now.
Currently I'm living in a very small country village in the South Downs fairy similar to something like Fairlie. My rugby club and gliding airfield are on the same paddock and I'm 20 mins drive to the beach.
So not every expat is living in Dubai, Hong Kong or Singapore some of us just quietly tick along being able to get the days off each month through our rostering system, smile and be pleased that we no longer have to be in the dog eat dog world of kiwi aviaition other than when I'm flying down to CHC to whatch Christ's College or Canterbury play rugby.
Its not that bad being an expat and flying for BA. I figure in around 10-15 yrs I'll be 45 I prob leave here and semi retire too farming or growing wine.
Silly Old Git
Tin had the opportunity in 1972 to buy Pauanui the Motel and airstrip, for the princley sum of $130,000
One day some of you guys will wake up and think, all that money I was earning in this sh#thole or that, what the f@ck was it I was going to buy anyway?
One day some of you guys will wake up and think, all that money I was earning in this sh#thole or that, what the f@ck was it I was going to buy anyway?
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Never mind Tinny, I used to go there on holiday when the place was nothing more than sandflies and sand dunes, now I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to get planning permission off the TCDC (the local robber barons..er council) to build a hangar for the 185. Either that or I buy a boat, and buy a share in Hangared 180/185
If ya talk nice you can come and sleep on the front porch
BTW, I am actually look at buying a place at the mo..hence the Pauanui comment a wee while back..apologies for thread creep
If ya talk nice you can come and sleep on the front porch
BTW, I am actually look at buying a place at the mo..hence the Pauanui comment a wee while back..apologies for thread creep
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quote tinnie....In 1972 you could buy a nice old house in Mt Eden for ten grand
Tin mate thats choice for sure,half these blokes in 72 were still swinging in their dads bags.bloody funny for sure,.,....
400rulz...ditto on your comments and for sure you never get what you want you get what you negotiate or are will ing to acept....but as waka points out....not all expats are leading a life of misery....I,m in the same boat as waka ....couple more years down the road,than he is and have made ,over the last few years some kiwi investments...so if your ever in pohara ....the piss is on me,and so,s the pig hunting run
I enjoy the flying I,m doing,..tiinne says he has 1 Airnz rejection letter..I have 2...but guess what ,...thungs change .....maybe back in kiwi sooner than I think....
one thing to remember...not all expats subscribe to this forum,and there are a ****eload of us that actually enjoy the lifestyle weve dug for ourselves and we sometimes portray our situations worse than they really are...for the sake of pissing and moaning......maybe waka and I have the best of both worlds.....I make it back to kiwi every 6 weeks,watch the footy,and surprised our paths have never met....for those who dont wish to do the OE aviation run...more power to you....dont ever knock what you havent tried...and for the young fella,s that are getting into this game....a little overseas stuff never hurt anyone...remoak will even back me up on that one.....
pilot shortage
...there will always be plenty of glorified bus drivers....I,m one of them
Tin mate thats choice for sure,half these blokes in 72 were still swinging in their dads bags.bloody funny for sure,.,....
400rulz...ditto on your comments and for sure you never get what you want you get what you negotiate or are will ing to acept....but as waka points out....not all expats are leading a life of misery....I,m in the same boat as waka ....couple more years down the road,than he is and have made ,over the last few years some kiwi investments...so if your ever in pohara ....the piss is on me,and so,s the pig hunting run
I enjoy the flying I,m doing,..tiinne says he has 1 Airnz rejection letter..I have 2...but guess what ,...thungs change .....maybe back in kiwi sooner than I think....
one thing to remember...not all expats subscribe to this forum,and there are a ****eload of us that actually enjoy the lifestyle weve dug for ourselves and we sometimes portray our situations worse than they really are...for the sake of pissing and moaning......maybe waka and I have the best of both worlds.....I make it back to kiwi every 6 weeks,watch the footy,and surprised our paths have never met....for those who dont wish to do the OE aviation run...more power to you....dont ever knock what you havent tried...and for the young fella,s that are getting into this game....a little overseas stuff never hurt anyone...remoak will even back me up on that one.....
pilot shortage
...there will always be plenty of glorified bus drivers....I,m one of them
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Hey 400Rulz, imagine if you'd taken that job with CX, got the early command and then gone on a AKL base. Slightly better than your aeroclub pay and a tidy roster to boot
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CX
Only problem was, no basings outside HKG in those days. Would have missed out on the formative years with the girls. They were really important. Money is not everything. With careful investing, I'll still be able to retire at 58.
400R
400R