CC Career Progression into QF Short Haul - News?

[Mr Seatback 2]

Afternoon all,

With all this movement in QF over the next few months, what has everyone heard regarding general movement around the group?

The way I see it, it'll work like this (pure assumption - NOT FACT!)...

1) VR will be finalised in the coming months for both S/H & L/H...what's everyone heard about numbers on this? Not that I'm keen to jump into the shoes of people jumping ship! Honestly! I've heard from my L/H mates there's a few hundred keen on the idea. What's the feeling in each division currently?

2) Once the numbers are finalised, the gaps around S/H might be filled by those on the transfer lists

3) Once this is done, the MAM's MAY be offered a few permanent slots around the network...that, or the AO crew transferring across in Sept 07 will fill the remaining gaps first (depends on what QF decide on I guess)...

4) THEN - once all that is done, career progression for the subsidiaries (Eastern, Sunstate & Jetstar Domestic) will occur at the end.

I, of course, stand to be corrected on the above. Between now and Sept this year, anything could happen...Fingers crossed for all concerned, they get their transfer/VR/permanent slot/career progression slot/insert appropriate wish here.

Please let's not turn this into a slanging match like so many of the others do. Let's just discuss and share with one another news that we manage to hear around the traps.

Best wishes and safe flying to all.

[Capt Claret]

Originally Posted by Mr Seatback 2

With all this movement in QF over the next few months, what has everyone heard regarding general movement around the group?

Nothing heard, absolutely nothing.

[Mr Seatback 2]

Same here

[call button]

The deadline for 'final expression of interest' in redundancy for short haul has not passed yet. Apparently there were a lot of initial expressions.

When it was offered at the end of last year, lots of people missed out, so I guess all of these will apply again.

As to how many the company will let go...I have no idea!!!

[Mr Seatback 2]

Do Long Haul & Short Haul both have the same deadlines for EOI?

I know L/H had their roadshows last week, and S/H started theirs today.

Have the MAM's heard anything about their permanent EOI's that went out a few weeks ago?

[casualvermin]

Mr Seatback 2, the EOI was only a smoke screen to quieten the rumblings of casuals who were rallying together to take action. As that failed to shut them up, a further memo was put out by AW. There is no respect for the casuals currently working at the other end of the trolley. I am not sure what your agreement says in regards to progression but perhaps you should look at Ao as the trigger, as you'll die of old age before any mams go fulltime.

[regionalguy]

Casualvermin/Mr Seatback 2

We thought the AO crew going to short haul would be the trigger for career progression too, BUT apparently because the AO crew are a part of the qf group, they are not considered initial trainees so it won't trigger progression.

On a more positive note though, I was told that some MAMs were going to be made permanent and that progression would happen this year. Discussions are still underway but commitments by qf have been given that it will happen.

...... sounds promising, fingers crossed for all concerned.

[Mr Seatback 2]

Interesting...

Is it not the case that progression is triggered by the creation of new permanent, full time crew into Short Haul?? As opposed to the term initial trainees? Using that logic, MAM crew becoming permanent wouldn't trigger progression either, as their conversion wouldn't include the need for any training, as they're already trained to initial standard.

The set up of the Cairns base using ex-AO crew is based on the creation of NEW permanent full time jobs (as well as in a base) that didn't exist before. In my book, this should trigger progression irrespective of whether or not they are already QF group, as they are taking up slots of permanent, full time crew, external from Qantas itself.

The AO crew's start dates, etc. only reflect the day they join Short Haul...so technically, aren't they NEW, permanent full-time employees to the Short Haul division? Given that QF won't recognise years of service for redundancy, etc., it would seem they're picking and choosing what aspects of their employement is considered new vs. what isn't.

Me thinks someone's conveniently splitting hairs to suit themselves - to the detriment of us all

Fingers firmly crossed everyone gets to move around and progress where they deserve to go! If I keep them crossed any harder, there's a distinct risk I might develop a blood clot or two...
(mind if I borrow your crutch Maj? )

[casualvermin]

Mr Seatback 2,

I am not privy to what agreement JQ, Eastern and Sunstate have. I have also not seen for myself the agreement with FAAA & QF in regards to MAM superseding all other 'street' applicants. This been said, I have never heard of an AO 'in principal' agreement either, in regards to progression. With a good industrial lawyer those covered by 'in principal' would have grounds to commence progression. To what numbers is anyones guess.

Do have a prescription for Warifarin??

[Mr Seatback 2]

AO didn't have an any inclusion into global seniority when L/H FAAA tried in the past to include them...so on one hand, you had QF keeping AO at arms length from being considered any part of global seniority...and now, you have a situation where AO transferring into S/H is not considered 'external' recruitment into Qantas...

Very convenient...

Then again, this is brought to you from the same airline that called the crew from QF1737 'Qantas crew, Qantas heroes'...when, technically, the crew were Impulse Airlines crew contracted as QantasLink - all of us who, historically, had been treated as lepers by both crew and management attached to 'the mother ship'. We all joked (as co-workers of this wonderful crew) that it was funny we were Qantas when it suited, and 'not Qantas' when it didn't.

Any regional/subsidiary crew would be more than familiar with the feeling of being kept at arm's length when it suits those in the ivory tower.

I wonder if Maj would like some Warfarin for her DVT...or, in keeping with the 'spirit' of cost savings, a good dose of 'No Frills' Asprin?

[regionalguy]

Any regional/subsidiary crew would be more than familiar with the feeling of being kept at arm's length when it suits those in the ivory tower.

Couldn't agree with you more Mr Seatback we know only too well at EAA what its like being part of the extended family that gets the card table at christmas.

That aside I do think that the AO crew have been given a very early xmas present and good luck to them I say. I have a couple of mates up there who were formerly with AN and the flip side of the coin they've been given would be to loose their jobs all over again. Not something I would wish on any of them. If progression doesn't trigger by the CNS base opening then that sucks but I'd rather they have a job than no job at all.

Having said that, I (and just about everyone at EAA) wants progression and we'd like it yesterday thanks. Splitting hairs is a true profession that those in the ivory tower are highly skilled at.

Bring on the MAM permanents and the progression that does hang off that !

[Mr Seatback 2]

Couldn't agree more regionalguy - what a perfect way to sum it up - 'the card table'! LOL

As for the AO crew, they SO deserve being made permanent. They way they've been treated over the last year has been dreadful IMHO...nice to see they're at least being made permanent. In this day and age of doom and gloom and despair (sound familiar Geoff?), many of them had envisaged being shunted into JQI.

[QF skywalker]

MrSeatback2,
Hello my friend ! Further to your 'splitting hairs' comment. You might like to know that you are indeed correct.
From what I have read of our EOI packs at AO, it seems our length of service for Long Service Leave and our current annual leave entitlements will carry on into QF S/H. But, as specified by QF, our staff travel DOJ will be reset which I don't think was the case when Impulse/QFLINK become JQ ?
Let's also remember regarding the career progression talk that when the Southern crew were merged into QF there was no career progression activated elsewhere. This of course was a similar situation to AO where a QF subsidiary was closed down and the crew were given alternate employment in short haul.
One last thing, whilst I accept that MAM crew want permanent employment. It was made clear in the recruitment process that no permament employment would eventuate from being hired as a MAM casual. I therefore maintain my strong belief that career progression from the regionals and JQ should be the highest priority of QF. Having sat on the career progession list myself for sometime I can tell you it's a long wait - especially when you're working on a prop with no APU and earning half the pay of a casual !

[sydney s/h]

If any MAM'ers do get a fulltime position with QF be prepared to head west. And for a few years.

[Mr Seatback 2]

Skywalker...always a pleasure!

Impulse/QFLink staff had their staff travel dates reset to the date we were bought by Qantas - so all prior service with Impulse was not recognised, including for the 7 year Business Class eligibility scheme.

The KEY difference between Southern and AO is that Southern was already party to the Career Progression Agreement, as covered by FAAA Domestic. True, small difference - both airlines were subsidiaries of QF. However, Southern crew brought across their seniority, etc. as part of the CPA. AO crew, by all accounts, are being treated as external applicants because years of service aren't being recognised for redundancy purposes, staff travel, or seniority. At this stage at least.

On that basis, that (in my eyes) makes AO crew external applicants. Although in both cases each airline was shutdown, AO crew weren't included into global seniority (a position maintained by QF, despite L/H FAAA's efforts).

[GalleyHag]

Some interesting news from the FAAA buried in The Week that Was:

PERMANENT PART-TIME / FULLTIME
The Association is aware that some members are encountering difficulties in being able to revert from Permanent Part Time to Full Time. Once again, as with base transfer, the problem relates to filling full time vacancies. We are hopeful to have some positive news to publish shortly in this regard. Specifically some limited career progression will be occurring within the next few months which must include an opportunity for some to revert to full time positions.

Base Transfers

What does everyone think about the base transfer issue. Every week I read conflicting information from the FAAA on this issue.

As a member of the FAAA I would certainly like to see SUBSTANTIAL movement out of Perth not this limited number rubbish. We are about see the introduction of 250 odd initial cabin crew by way of AO and with the amount of contract C re guarantee 80 hours into Sydney and Melbourne you cant tell me they cant move a portion of the AO crew to Perth as they are intials and action the transfer list out of Perth and when I mean action I dont mean a handful.

Interesting times ahead for the company and the FAAA on the Perth transfer issue from what I hear. I think the FAAA maybe underestimating the membership within Perth short haul on this issue.

This also from the FAAA today.

The Association has been pressing the company for over 12 months to initiate base transfers. The difficulty in moving crew is related primarily to the lack of vacancies to be filled in the various bases. This is evident when you consider we have been through two rounds of voluntary redundancy over this period.

The parties have agreed to consider allowing crew on the transfer list to move by swapping positions, as opposed to the traditional approach of filling vacancies. This approach obviously requires equal numbers being available to move from one base to another.

Therefore, as no crew are looking to transfer to the base of Perth a swap arrangement is not possible to enable any significant movement from Perth. However, the company has agreed in principle that should we settle on base swaps a limited number (yet to be determined) would be allowed to move from Perth to the east coast.

The creation of a new Cairns Short Haul base and the need to place former Australian Airlines crew may actually assist with transfers in particular from the Perth base. Members should note that despite the “rumour mill” the Association has not agreed to bypass the normal transfer arrangements to place AO crew in bases other than Cairns.

The Association has agreed to discuss this matter with Qantas in the next few weeks on the basis that our pre-existing members seeking transfers need to be included in any further discussions.

We will keep you informed of any further developments in this matter.

[samford]

The FAAA does need to take a firmer stance on this issue (actually, make that ANY issue). I think, moving forward, there needs to be no more casual employment on the East Coast until these transfers have been actioned.

[lowerlobe]

samford...The problem is that the problem raised earlier with the FAAA and MAM still exists as nothing has altered.

The VB EBA is a case in point and it will be interesting to see if the domestic FAAA has learnt anything from their stinging defeat and actually listens to what the crew what.

I'm beginning to think that if the siruation with the union does not change then a new group or union representing crew might be the only way forward.By this I mean all CC.

[sinala1]

Originally Posted by lowerlobe

The VB EBA is a case in point and it will be interesting to see if the domestic FAAA has learnt anything from their stinging defeat and actually listens to what the crew what

Don't hold your breath

Word has it the new document has just had a few "if's" and "maybe's" moved around

[Mr Seatback 2]

I can't help but be worried about the inclusion of the word "limited"