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CC Career Progression into QF Short Haul - News?

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CC Career Progression into QF Short Haul - News?

Old 6th Jul 2007, 23:32
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Queenofsheba,

What a lovely post I can't wait to come across and fly with short haul crew like yourself too

Have a great day, and good luck to those going across on CP. You deserve it.

QF SKY
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Old 7th Jul 2007, 23:46
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Well congratulations to the AO crew, you deserve nothing less.

It's a shame the same cant be said to the long serving crew of the regional airlines. 15 positions between EEA/Sunnies/Jetstar what an absolute disgrace compared to the 20 they are offering to MAM casuals!!!!

MAM casuals joined the airline knowing there was no guarantee of full time employment and now it seems that each time progression is actioned there are more MAM positions offered than regional airline positions! Does anyone else see the injustice in this!!!

Regional crew have slogged their guts out for this company only to get slapped in the face when it comes time for progression each and every time.

The way I see it is that the 35 positions being offered should go to the subsidiary crew(EEA/Sunnies/Jetstar) first, and then the MAM's should be offered full time employment into the regionals if that's what they want!

Pause..........now lets wait for the pity poor MAM rant to start.....you guys try working on a dash8 in 40 degree heat year in year out and then tell me why you think this is fair!
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Old 8th Jul 2007, 01:17
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Oilboiler

You are obviously a crew member of either Eastern or Sunstate, therefore you would or should be familar with the regional progression agreement between the FAAA and Qantas. You will note contained within this agreement is a cluase which activates regional progression and it states along the lines of when 32 or more external applicants are appointed to permanent positions within Qantas short haul ex number will progress from Eastern and Sunstate and I think from memory the numbers are something like 10 and 6 respectively.

I can understand your frustration at the numbers being progressed, however without the MAM crew being made permanent there would be zero movement out of the regionals. Since the introduction of regional progression all those years ago it was only ever actitivated when new crew were recruited off the street so to speak and placed into permanent positions. Back in those days 100 new crew would be offered permanent positions and only 4 people would move from Eastern. Even after Ansett in 2001 many hundreds of people were given permanent positions and only handful progressed from Eastern and Sunstate.

Now that we have MAM casuals any available permanent positions are now offered to that pool of crew rather then the traditional way of general public recruitment. In this case the magic number of 32 external applicants was not reached therefore each airline is getting a token number being 5. Sunstate seems to have done the best considering their normal number of progression is 6.

I certainly appreciate where you are coming from but in this instance you are directing your frustration at the wrong people. The regional progression agreement is now outdated and doesnt take into account the current employment practices of Qantas and as such regional crew suffer.

Lets hope there will be further movement again in the near future, you just never know whats around the corner everything changes day by day lately.

Last edited by GalleyHag; 8th Jul 2007 at 01:32.
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Old 8th Jul 2007, 01:57
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Well it's funny you should say that galleyhag, as it appears the faaadom will be entering into discussions with QF at changing the current CP agreement to better suit everyone now that it is 2007, the current agreement worked well back in 1998 !
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Old 8th Jul 2007, 03:18
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As far as the progression goes I think we would have had all liked more numbers from each airline and yes we do slog it out on a Dash8 in forty degree heat and all feel that we deserve better.

Having said that we all know that progression is just a carrot that is dangled with the slim hope that one day we will make it over to SH. MAM have just as much right to progress, although I don't think oldboiler was saying they didn't, just that the numbers could have been evened up a bit more.

Well I see it like this......... QF will make the decisions on how many they take in from EAA/SS/JQ and who they take from MAM. I know they hand pick the MAM's on merit selection, where we are on a first on the list gets to go. It does seem like the faaa are going to renegotiate the cp agreement and from reading the newsletter they sent, it sounds like they are happy QF "still" want to do that. We know its not in our EBA's, we know they can take it away if they want, we know but I think fail to appreciate it fully, that we are lucky to have it in the first place.

We've all got choices people, we know the state of play and if we don't like where we are and we're not prepared to wait for the potential to be moved, then we need to re-think those choices don't we ? Be happy for your colleagues that have been offered the opportunity and not just those in your airline, life is too short to be bitter about someone else's good fortune..

In the meantime cross your fingers and pray the union can negotiate something we will be prepared to wait around for.
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Old 8th Jul 2007, 04:13
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While I guess its hard to keep every one happy and the thought of working on a dash8 at any temp doest excit me, a thought must be given to M.A.M casuals who have had no holiday pay, no sick pay, no staff travel, not much of anything really except an hourly rate..and some have been doing it for many years now also.
All equally deserving I think.
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Old 8th Jul 2007, 05:04
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fish

Actually NO.

An extremely high hourly rate that combines to make take home pay higher than those of their full-time counterparts at Virgin blue, Eastern & Sunstate.

Yes it's not guaranteed hours, but not really hardly done by, sspecially when the hourly rate includes grooming allowance and others to make up for the fact that employment is casual.

Many Eastern/Sunstate crew have traditonally had second jobs just to pay the bills after flying 4-5 sectors in one day on their own for little thanks on old turbo prop aircraft, just waiting for the day QF calls them for CP.

MAM have had it easy.
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Old 8th Jul 2007, 08:38
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ACTUALLY NO!!

$27 per hour with nothing esle is NOT what I would consider a high rate of pay... No benifits at all,sick or holiday pay. Nothing... My last pay I cleared $810 for the fortnight. Many M.A.M crew also have second jobs. To say M.A.M have had it easy is a joke!!! Totally unjustafied statement.
As previously said it is impossible to keep everyone happy..Its dog eat dog out there. Everyone wants in to QF s/h.. Good luck to all who are lucky enough to be offered the position no matter where you come from. Most of us should just go buy a lotto ticket, odds are similar to getting offered a job with QF.
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Old 8th Jul 2007, 09:35
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I guess the disappointment from the subsidiary crew exists for a number of different reasons.

Whilst the majority of us understand the complexity of the CP agreement, we also feel somewhat 'slighted' by the fact that MAM's have achieved more positions than us. That's not to say they do not deserve these positions - everyone deserves access to them...however, if the positions were at least equal (20 MAM, 20 subsidiary), it would at least seem fairer to the subsidiary crew.

From my perspective, here is my background. Maybe some of my regional counterparts can relate...

I joined Impulse back in early 2001. Soon after, we started flying as QantasLink. A few months later, Qantas purchased us in November 2001. As part of our successive EBA's, we negotiated to be part of Career Progression - not an easy task.

We continued flying as QantasLink...until the grand idea of a low cost carrier was launched - the choice was either a new company (thus threatening our jobs at the time - a veiled threat, but one nonetheless), or using us to become what we know as Jetstar - a complete reversal from full service airline, with overnights, to multi-sector day flying, every day back to home base.

Our choice, at the time, was either stay - or go of our own accord - with the large increase in duty hours, removal of overnights, and the pain associated with introducing a low cost carrier to Australia. Not without our bad press either. No offer to transfer to S/H, VR, etc.

I now find myself 3 years into JQ Domestic. I didn't take international because the AWA was less pay, more work than my current EBA. Whilst I make a concerted effort to enjoy myself and have a good day at work, I average 150 odd hours every month. I generally operate 4 sector days every day. True, it's my choice to stay, but for the majority of subsidiary crew, we 'old timers' have stayed on in the hope to progress to S/H.

Now...almost 6 years on...I feel I've earned the right to transfer. Yet, once again, I've been diddled by circumstances not of my making, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

This system needs to change to ensure hard-working crew like myself, and my colleagues throughout the subsidiaries, are rewarded for their patience and hard work with the carrot that's dangled in front of us year after year (or should that be, every 18 months). And with the goal posts getting changed time after time (8 in 2004, 16 in 2006, and now 5 in 2007...), it's starting to **** me. I'm used to uncertainty, and change...but I don't think I'm asking for too much.

End of rant. Need to drink a sav blanc. This is all too depressing.
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Old 8th Jul 2007, 13:03
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RegionalGuy -

First I agree entirely with your last post. However...

I must have missed your third-to-last post. You are quite a rude little man, aren't you? Really.

Your Jetstar EBA did not (nor does any other EBA) contain career progression
It is actually an EBA item.

Clause 19 of the SH EBA refers to casuals employed directly by QF not MAM casuals
Where does it say that? Seeing as there was no casuals employed by the company when that clause was written, what was the point of the clause?

The law does prohibit a union even trying to control or cap a casualised workforce
Why then was such a clause written into an EBA?

and finally get a life, your self sacrificing rant is pathetic.
Mate, that is way out of line. I feel that the situation with the transfers is not right. I am stating an opinion and opposing a situation that I feel is unfair. Since when is that unacceptable? You really are a nasty person. I couldn't be more offended. Who are you to say such things?

Oh I almost forgot, the AO crew aren't initial trainees as far as the EBA goes
Says who? What is the definition of an initial trainee? If AO crew can take a SYD/MEL slot over someone who has been employed by the Qantas Group for much longer and who is on an existing transfer list - then why can't the 20 MAM people stay in SYD/MEL instead of having to move to Perth? Why were the people still in Perth from the previous progression immediately transferred when the some 2004 career progresison people were given SYD? Why were the SYD/MEL slots offered to AO crew over the new career progression people?

My point is... Why wouldn't the company allow people on an existing transfer list to move first? Why shouldn't someone who has been on a transfer list for a year and a half (some people two) expect an East Coast slot over the new ex-AO crew? RegionalGuy, how would you feel if the situation involved you? I suspect you would be reacting a little differently.

Answer me this - do you think the situation is fair? Is there any reason those of us in Perth should not be upset?
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Old 9th Jul 2007, 00:44
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Keep your chin up Mr Seatback, you never know with this company..anything could happen..I wish you all the very best and hope you get an offer to join short haul soon.
I would love a full time position but have no interest in transfering to Perth. So I guess never a chance for me.
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Old 9th Jul 2007, 02:50
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Ditzy

No ruder than you sunshine. You chose to rant and rave after my first genuine post so the way I see it, game on from there. Ok for your spare me the diatribe and do you find my cummuting abilities threatenting comments but not ok when someone has an equal response. Makes me wonder that you are potentially an only child and not used to getting some of your own stuff back. Either that or just petulant.

As for the EBA contents of career progression, try pasting my whole comment not just the parts you want to pick at. An EBA item it may have been but the agreement itself and your rights to progression are not in your EBA.

As for the other stuff, again like I said try posting and responding to all of my comments not just the parts you like. Call the union, thats what I did. Having said that how do you know when the clause was written ? Qantas did at one time have their own casuals, then enlisted the labour hire of MAM who employs the crew on their own MAM EBA.

Clause 19 of the SH EBA talks about their casuals not being engaged in a manner that would circumvent or undermine conditions of employment for permanent flight attendants. Unless your reading a different EBA Mate, no-where does it try to cap or control casuals. So no breaking of the law.

And as for the AO crew getting east coast bases and the transfers ........... good luck to them. I imagine an intial trainee is someone who goes through intial training for six weeks and someone who during that time is paid the initial trainee wage in the EBA. But I will agree, there is no definition, but as they're not being initially trained or paid the initial wage, the one for one was a good outcome for all, not the lawn fertilizer you first referred to it as.I've heard 8 were offerend transfers out of Perth just recently and if the 20 MEL and 10 SYD numbers are right for the 1:1 purposes, will mean a total of 38 transfers out of perth. Tell me when has there ever been that many go from perth in one go since it started up ?

Oh and as for being upset, I didn't think you were, you said you loved it over there and would continue to use those threating commuting abilities to port swap back. As for the rest on the list, it takes me back to my original post, yes it might be perth but spare a thought for those you left behind and be happy that you are where you are. It might not be all that you hoped for, but its better than where you came from isn't it ? Indeed if you do agree entirely with my last post, you will not be bitter about someonelse's good fortune, be that progression or transfers or AO etc.

Just in case everyone else is as tired of this as I am, perhaps you should just PM me with any further dummy spitting responses to save everyone else the bordem of reading our dust up.
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Old 10th Jul 2007, 02:23
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Just a small point I would like to make. In the MAM EBA it does state that we are only to work for Qantas and no other airline. So yes whilst we are not part of QF.... we are.

career progression is not in eba but it is an agreement outside of it isn't it? Can't find what page it is on in EBA7.

Now I am sure the 35 jobs in PER are already decided. I am sure the first ever casual Team Leader is in foshow.

Any casual out there that can confirm the move to the TWU??
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Old 10th Jul 2007, 05:34
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like i said in the cabin crew section cv 1....mam is qf,qf is mam....2.faaa represents all members that are mam and qf s/haul members.....question? who does no.2 work for???????? cheers gigs from your indications on who is going to get mam to qf full time i assume you are sydney based???
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Old 10th Jul 2007, 05:35
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Makes me wonder that you are potentially an only child and not used to getting some of your own stuff back. Either that or just petulant.
Neither an only child nor petulant. I cannot believe you choose to be so nasty. I take offence to many of your snide attacks.

You have a valid point. As do I. Our opinions differ - that's life. Just refrain from telling me I do not have a right to feel the way I do about a situation that directly involves myself and my colleagues. That is the reason I took exception to your initial comments.

Just in case everyone else is as tired of this as I am, perhaps you should just PM me with any further dummy spitting responses to save everyone else the bordem of reading our dust up.
No dummy spitting here, Mate. Just conviction and a true sense of what I feel is right.

Anyway...
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Old 10th Jul 2007, 09:01
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Ditzyboy Vs Regionalguy

Put the gloves away boys, we are getting sick of your petty school yard arguements and counter arguements. Save it for a PM. Where's a moderator when you need one!
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Old 10th Jul 2007, 10:53
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Gigs, you could also assume I am from any other base as I believe was one of those annoying Eastcoasters who scabbed on the Westside. I believe every base talks about her. Didn't she also work for AN??

Last edited by casualvermin; 11th Jul 2007 at 00:32.
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Old 10th Jul 2007, 21:26
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I believe DD was one of those annoying Eastcoasters who scabbed on the Westside.....

When and what was this all about?

As far as the other recent posts here are concerned you have to remember who the real enemy is.Don't argue with each other because it is exactly what Darth wants...he is the problem not each other.
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Old 11th Jul 2007, 00:31
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Yes LL management are the root of all grief amongst us, we are poorly lead. The issue with is that management sent casuals over to PER to force the casuals to open their availability, they had nil flying until availability increased. The other issue is relating to is that no matter how good we are and how well the majority of crew are plays no role when it comes to good career opportunities, trips etc.. Maybe not with regionals, but for casuals who is getting the job is already decided, before the interview or performance review.
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Old 11th Jul 2007, 04:15
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I hope the first ever casual team leader does get the PER job. Atleast i wont have to fly with the little prick again!
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