Air Nelson
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The MCC course is what you make it. Many people see it as a box-ticking exercise, however airline training departments recognise the value and encourage prospective new hires to take full advantage of it. Our training department chopped about 10% of new hires, simply because they couldn't get to grips with multi-crew ops in the allotted time. Most of those guys would have got through if they had paid attention during their MCC.
CRM, well it all depends on the content of that training and the content of the refresher. Does Air Nelson do a full day per year, or is it a couple of hours tacked on to something else? And I'm pretty sure that CRM is not directly assessable during checks.
My initial CRM course was 4 days with a six-monthly refresher.
The rest of your experience, well fair enough, but it doesn't agree with what a lot of other Air Nelson pilots have told me. I knew a few of their trainers, as they were ten years ago, and they were pretty much all a-holes. Maybe they left.
50 hours recent NZ IF... well if you were right, they would just say "50 hours recent IF", where you did it would be irrelevant. The fact that it mmust be "NZ" IF time tells you what the real intent is.
Why not give them a try? Because I don't want to start at the bottom again. I've been a small T/P F/O, did my time, don't want to repeat the exercise and become poor in the process!
CRM, well it all depends on the content of that training and the content of the refresher. Does Air Nelson do a full day per year, or is it a couple of hours tacked on to something else? And I'm pretty sure that CRM is not directly assessable during checks.
My initial CRM course was 4 days with a six-monthly refresher.
The rest of your experience, well fair enough, but it doesn't agree with what a lot of other Air Nelson pilots have told me. I knew a few of their trainers, as they were ten years ago, and they were pretty much all a-holes. Maybe they left.
50 hours recent NZ IF... well if you were right, they would just say "50 hours recent IF", where you did it would be irrelevant. The fact that it mmust be "NZ" IF time tells you what the real intent is.
Why not give them a try? Because I don't want to start at the bottom again. I've been a small T/P F/O, did my time, don't want to repeat the exercise and become poor in the process!
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Wrong again
Sorry remoak, off target again. 2 day initial followed by a day long refresher, assesable in the sim. Not a few hours tacked onto anything. 4 days? Bet a load of piss was sunk over that course.
I would hazard a guess that most of your new hires have on the order of 250 hours, so just flying a small plane is still a bit challenging, let alone in a crew enviroment in a jet. Paying attention in their MCC course probably has nothing to do with it.
If your still bitter after 10 years mate, your holding on too tight.
NZ IF time, its just for the newbies, stop being paranoid.
Your constant bashing of NZ and its aviation system based on your non existent experience in it is getting a bit old. Much like your outdated (10years ago) view on Air Nelson. And yes, I have flown into all those airports you bang on about, and yes, its busy, but they radar vector you practically to your gate, so unless your radio work is crap, then its not that hard.
Maybe those "Aeroclub" managers can see your inflated ego a mile off and would rather not enjoy the bounty of your vast experience.
Nosey
I would hazard a guess that most of your new hires have on the order of 250 hours, so just flying a small plane is still a bit challenging, let alone in a crew enviroment in a jet. Paying attention in their MCC course probably has nothing to do with it.
If your still bitter after 10 years mate, your holding on too tight.
NZ IF time, its just for the newbies, stop being paranoid.
Your constant bashing of NZ and its aviation system based on your non existent experience in it is getting a bit old. Much like your outdated (10years ago) view on Air Nelson. And yes, I have flown into all those airports you bang on about, and yes, its busy, but they radar vector you practically to your gate, so unless your radio work is crap, then its not that hard.
Maybe those "Aeroclub" managers can see your inflated ego a mile off and would rather not enjoy the bounty of your vast experience.
Nosey
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Personally like the idea of going back home to live rather than fly. Reckon Air Nelson would be the best operation to go too because I would want to live in TG or NR. I like the Dash 8 it was my first turbo prop and I enjoyed flying it. Understand that if I pass the interview selection procedure I'll be an F/O and go with the flow because its about being home with family, pig hunting and being able to see proper rugby games on tv and have bbq's in sunshine not f
king snow etc. If you don't agree with management stuff just be pleased to be able to be at home. My guess the stress and hassles many people may have with regional carriers are that they are wishing to move on and up the greasy pole. Good luck to you with it but just remember it may not be what your after. Tonight I'm off to Kuwait and will be awake alnight getting there. Thats generally the hassle with long haul. That is why Air Nelson is so appealing.
king snow etc. If you don't agree with management stuff just be pleased to be able to be at home. My guess the stress and hassles many people may have with regional carriers are that they are wishing to move on and up the greasy pole. Good luck to you with it but just remember it may not be what your after. Tonight I'm off to Kuwait and will be awake alnight getting there. Thats generally the hassle with long haul. That is why Air Nelson is so appealing.
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Cloud Cutter
Not trying to shoot anybody down, don't get that idea. Simply conveying a different viewpoint!
Well, how can it be a pass/fail item if you have no standard assessment criteria? If one check captain has his or her own particular view of what CRM is and how it should be assessed, you have a serious standardisation issue. That is just about as bad as having no CRM training at all... it has to be evenly taught and applied.
As you put it, "the one man band approach that has been prevalent in the past" has persisted 20 years after Euro airlines saw the light, and changed. Maybe it is getting better now, but only because the airlines have been dragged locking and screaming into the 21st century (mainly by the demands of the increasingly weird CAA and fear of litigation).
My last look at the aviation scene was last year, and I agree that change is (finally) taking place, but only when the airlines are forced to change, and then reluctantly.
BTW you may have noticed that it isn't just me that holds these opinions...
nosegear
In order to be bitter, I would need to have either worked for them, or want to work for them. Neither is true.
And you would be completely wrong. Most of the failures had 1500 - 2000 hours of GA experience, all single crew, and they simply couldn't adjust. Most of them did as you suggested on their MCC course - sank piss - to further demonstrate their professionalism. The problem was that, not only did they fail their type rating courses, they couldn't understand why.
While I was in the training department, we took about 20 cadets with 250 hours, directly into the right seat of the 146. Not ONE of them failed.
Complete nonsense. If it was just meant for noobs, it would not specify "NZ" IF time. IF time is IF time, NZ is PANS OPS II and ICAO, there is virtually no real difference between IF here or IF anywhere in Europe, other than a few local procedures. It is designed to weed out the returning Kiwis and foreigners. More to the point, as I have already said, the Chief Pilot at the time the rule came in TOLD me it was invented for that reason.
The rest of your post, well, if BS were gold...
Not trying to shoot anybody down, don't get that idea. Simply conveying a different viewpoint!
It is certainly a pass/fail item on all of our checks (as some have unfortunately discovered). Of course, the check captain's understanding of what constitutes good CRM is another issue.
As you put it, "the one man band approach that has been prevalent in the past" has persisted 20 years after Euro airlines saw the light, and changed. Maybe it is getting better now, but only because the airlines have been dragged locking and screaming into the 21st century (mainly by the demands of the increasingly weird CAA and fear of litigation).
My last look at the aviation scene was last year, and I agree that change is (finally) taking place, but only when the airlines are forced to change, and then reluctantly.
BTW you may have noticed that it isn't just me that holds these opinions...
nosegear
In order to be bitter, I would need to have either worked for them, or want to work for them. Neither is true.
I would hazard a guess that most of your new hires have on the order of 250 hours, so just flying a small plane is still a bit challenging, let alone in a crew enviroment in a jet. Paying attention in their MCC course probably has nothing to do with it.
While I was in the training department, we took about 20 cadets with 250 hours, directly into the right seat of the 146. Not ONE of them failed.
NZ IF time, its just for the newbies, stop being paranoid.
The rest of your post, well, if BS were gold...
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Nosegear - Could you remind me again of ANYONE in the entire flight operations department, including training, who have overseas airline experience? I think you will find that they ALL fall into one of three categories - ex instructors, ex Safe Air or ex airforce (many non pilots). They are in those positions because they have hung around long enough at Air Nelson and greased up the right people.
Could you remind me again of any F/Os who have joined with previous overseas jet experience? The flight operations department will not hire anyone with experience that may threaten their position, and the 50 hour recent NZ I/F experience is used to support this. From the postings here it would seem that there plenty of people overseas who would like to return to NZ for the lifestyle but Air Nelson for some reason doesn't seem interested in them?
As far as CRM being assessable in the sim - you're having a laugh surely? You've only got to look at the way some of the senior training staff operate on line, particularly when incidents have actually occurred, to realise that CRM hasn't reached their plane of existence.
Naturally the jobs you are comparing Air Nelson with have been with other airlines of a similar or larger size, not the small operators that we all have worked for in NZ before joining Air Nelson, or is Cathay in fact the only other large operator you have worked for?
Could you remind me again of any F/Os who have joined with previous overseas jet experience? The flight operations department will not hire anyone with experience that may threaten their position, and the 50 hour recent NZ I/F experience is used to support this. From the postings here it would seem that there plenty of people overseas who would like to return to NZ for the lifestyle but Air Nelson for some reason doesn't seem interested in them?
As far as CRM being assessable in the sim - you're having a laugh surely? You've only got to look at the way some of the senior training staff operate on line, particularly when incidents have actually occurred, to realise that CRM hasn't reached their plane of existence.
I myself found the training to be excellent, and I have several other jobs to compare it too
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Since you insist Captain
Captain, please remind me where I said that anyone there had overseas airline experience? And what benefits do you see that would bring if they did? What if that experience was from such august operators as say Ryanair?
As for returning expats, there was a 777 emirates captain, a bizjet captain that I flew with, and another bloke, (cant remember his airline), not to mention a guy from El Al who had left NS and was coming back. This was in the last 6 or so years, so recent history doesn't support your argument. I can't speak for the other posters, but I really don't think there are many who would be completely serious, yet, about returning home for the lifestyle. Do YOU have any proof that the "50 hour rule" is used to support this? As I said, I don't believe it, but I would be very disappointed if it was.
And just so you know, I didn't go straight from Air Nelson to Cathay, so yes, I do have other jobs and experiences to compare.
remoak, if you say your not bitter then who am I to say otherwise, however, it does appear that you have a more than a little...lets say, passion, for the argument when it comes to NZ and aviation. I'm certain your 146 job lined your pockets, you could afford to fly a T/P again, nes pas?
As for returning expats, there was a 777 emirates captain, a bizjet captain that I flew with, and another bloke, (cant remember his airline), not to mention a guy from El Al who had left NS and was coming back. This was in the last 6 or so years, so recent history doesn't support your argument. I can't speak for the other posters, but I really don't think there are many who would be completely serious, yet, about returning home for the lifestyle. Do YOU have any proof that the "50 hour rule" is used to support this? As I said, I don't believe it, but I would be very disappointed if it was.
And just so you know, I didn't go straight from Air Nelson to Cathay, so yes, I do have other jobs and experiences to compare.
remoak, if you say your not bitter then who am I to say otherwise, however, it does appear that you have a more than a little...lets say, passion, for the argument when it comes to NZ and aviation. I'm certain your 146 job lined your pockets, you could afford to fly a T/P again, nes pas?
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Worked there 3.5 years after returning from overseas.
Best training I've ever had, anywhere.
All airlines have thier % of tossers, even kiwis overseas.
I'd be happy to go back there if I had to.
Best training I've ever had, anywhere.
All airlines have thier % of tossers, even kiwis overseas.
I'd be happy to go back there if I had to.
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What if that experience was from such august operators as say Ryanair?
Employment conditions, T&C's, and overall company culture are a different matter........but as far as training is concerned, they have some very very competent and mature systems.
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H1, yeah, I should think your right with the number of low time guys in there. I was meaning more the T & C side of things, but in hindsight, your quite right, different kettle of fish from training.
remoak, your final statement re: my post being Gold BS, I have at least worked there and know from the inside, not throwing about 10 year old opinions. I agree with you that the NZ rule, if true, is stupid, however, I just don't think its true, Captain Condom can perhaps clarify that.
H1, is our mutual mate from TGA in HK with KA yet?
Nosey
remoak, your final statement re: my post being Gold BS, I have at least worked there and know from the inside, not throwing about 10 year old opinions. I agree with you that the NZ rule, if true, is stupid, however, I just don't think its true, Captain Condom can perhaps clarify that.
H1, is our mutual mate from TGA in HK with KA yet?
Nosey
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nosegear
You apparently worked there some time ago. I know several pilots who are working there right now, and their feedback is what I am largely basing my comments on. They certainly do not share your opinions. My own involvement with Air Nelson goes back to the days of Mot Air, when Inglis had an office in the back of the Motueka Aero Club and an Aztec parked out the front.
I find your comment regarding the NZ IF rule - "if true" - insulting and funny at the same time. Several of us know it is true because we have been told so by Air Nelson managers. It is a fact, so get used to it. It may not be trotted out to every applicant, but it is certainly used quite frequently. As far as there being other expat types in Air Nelson, I am sure that there are... however, I am also sure that they are there because of the standard maxim of NZ aviation... it isn't what you know, it's who you know. The old boys network and so on... open your eyes a bit. It is just another piece of evidence of the amateur management at Air Nelson, using methods that are now illegal in Europe.
Yes, it is true to say that I exhibit some passion when discussing NZ aviation. It's because my eyes have been opened. Once I worked overseas, I realised how crap many aspects of NZ aviation are, from the pathetic regulatory environment, to the incestuous employers, to the double standards and cronyism that pervade the industry. It doesn't affect me, as I have chosen a different path, but it does affect the many young guys I know who are trying to get their careers going. They are all disadvantaged by the nonsense desribed above.
But, hey, if you are happy with it all, great. Enjoy your 20 yrs as a 2nd officer at Cathay... but don't try and come home, you will need 50 hours recent NZ IF to get a job with your old employer (depending on your brown-nosing ability).
You apparently worked there some time ago. I know several pilots who are working there right now, and their feedback is what I am largely basing my comments on. They certainly do not share your opinions. My own involvement with Air Nelson goes back to the days of Mot Air, when Inglis had an office in the back of the Motueka Aero Club and an Aztec parked out the front.
I find your comment regarding the NZ IF rule - "if true" - insulting and funny at the same time. Several of us know it is true because we have been told so by Air Nelson managers. It is a fact, so get used to it. It may not be trotted out to every applicant, but it is certainly used quite frequently. As far as there being other expat types in Air Nelson, I am sure that there are... however, I am also sure that they are there because of the standard maxim of NZ aviation... it isn't what you know, it's who you know. The old boys network and so on... open your eyes a bit. It is just another piece of evidence of the amateur management at Air Nelson, using methods that are now illegal in Europe.
Yes, it is true to say that I exhibit some passion when discussing NZ aviation. It's because my eyes have been opened. Once I worked overseas, I realised how crap many aspects of NZ aviation are, from the pathetic regulatory environment, to the incestuous employers, to the double standards and cronyism that pervade the industry. It doesn't affect me, as I have chosen a different path, but it does affect the many young guys I know who are trying to get their careers going. They are all disadvantaged by the nonsense desribed above.
But, hey, if you are happy with it all, great. Enjoy your 20 yrs as a 2nd officer at Cathay... but don't try and come home, you will need 50 hours recent NZ IF to get a job with your old employer (depending on your brown-nosing ability).
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Nice posting boys, it's good to read that Eagle is not the only one in the Link network that gets a slagging. I work for eagle at the moment and was concidering the jump to the dash if the chance came up but I had no Idea that the guys and girls on the dash work so hard. Sure we stand in the rain a bit and dont have a hostie but by the sound of it, we dont work nearly as much as NSN drivers, so a bit of water here and there aint that bad.
What are the rostered shifts like each day (ex aa) and time off. Just out of curiosity, how does the dash handle the ice.
What are the rostered shifts like each day (ex aa) and time off. Just out of curiosity, how does the dash handle the ice.
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Always Inverted,
There is only one person slagging Air Nelson in this post - his/hers/its remarks are so far off the mark that they are not worth replying to.
Yeah - there have been some busy months of work while the transition to the Dash is made - a couple more Saabs got pulled last Friday so things are beginning to ease a little.
The DHC8 handles the icing a lot better than the SF340.....generally the DHC8 is a nice machine to fly......but my comments are based upon limited experince of 2 turbine types......
Swampa
There is only one person slagging Air Nelson in this post - his/hers/its remarks are so far off the mark that they are not worth replying to.
Yeah - there have been some busy months of work while the transition to the Dash is made - a couple more Saabs got pulled last Friday so things are beginning to ease a little.
The DHC8 handles the icing a lot better than the SF340.....generally the DHC8 is a nice machine to fly......but my comments are based upon limited experince of 2 turbine types......
Swampa
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AI,
Sorry in answer to your question re shifts:-
Generally good there is only one duty that is tiresome as it finishes at 430pm - just in time for the AA traffic. Most duties are either an AM or PM. Mostly a 4 sector day with a short break.....with the third DHC8 now based in AA there is more variation with the destinations during the week now....
Sorry in answer to your question re shifts:-
Generally good there is only one duty that is tiresome as it finishes at 430pm - just in time for the AA traffic. Most duties are either an AM or PM. Mostly a 4 sector day with a short break.....with the third DHC8 now based in AA there is more variation with the destinations during the week now....
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AI
Are you on drugs? Who in their right mind would want to stay in GA and not step up to an airline. However if you do like Eagle so much then please stay there. It will give some of those interviewees who your trainers recently trashed an opportunity.
Are you on drugs? Who in their right mind would want to stay in GA and not step up to an airline. However if you do like Eagle so much then please stay there. It will give some of those interviewees who your trainers recently trashed an opportunity.
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Yo Waka rider..come back buddy..all the boys in the regionals could use someone rich to shout them drinks..Lion Nathan is increasing prices across their range which constitutes a major crisis in NZ GA..
..as to the rugby..I have watched a few super 14 games this season and I can tell you there aint no good rugby being played round here at the moment
..as to the rugby..I have watched a few super 14 games this season and I can tell you there aint no good rugby being played round here at the moment
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Bottom line boys....Beggars cant be choosers and all,(including myself,,..a whore at heart) have succumbed to the evils of taking a ****ty job with ****ty pay with ****ty managers with ****ty pay and conditions....its just plain ****ty for sure
I agree with most sides here as the postings are relevant to where "one" is now and currently employed,or have been(ay remork)I have seen the negative kiwi side and the positive,I seen the backward and the forward types who make flying in kiwi a pure joy......
....in the end its all about choices(although limited in kiwi)...you either accept the situation or bugger off(not saying it should be that way or acceptable) but it is what it is,
For those of us with a "wider" experience base,I can understand the resentment from the younger blokes(or ones that have stayed) about the criticism,s the have to listen to or have shoved down their throats because of the their limited access to other employment avenues....but Ive been there,done that and been my own worst decision maker.....its worked out for sure....but not without a lot of skull-duggery and "other-things"
one thing is for sure...just like the kiwi OE...(which we all must do)....there is also the kiwi aviation OE....and for sure it will open your eyes and give you a different perspective.....that is also your choice
matty....you have a flying job yet?????
Waka mate....pig hunting in Kuwait ay???.... you bloody beauty!!!!send photos of those piggys..........
I agree with most sides here as the postings are relevant to where "one" is now and currently employed,or have been(ay remork)I have seen the negative kiwi side and the positive,I seen the backward and the forward types who make flying in kiwi a pure joy......
....in the end its all about choices(although limited in kiwi)...you either accept the situation or bugger off(not saying it should be that way or acceptable) but it is what it is,
For those of us with a "wider" experience base,I can understand the resentment from the younger blokes(or ones that have stayed) about the criticism,s the have to listen to or have shoved down their throats because of the their limited access to other employment avenues....but Ive been there,done that and been my own worst decision maker.....its worked out for sure....but not without a lot of skull-duggery and "other-things"
one thing is for sure...just like the kiwi OE...(which we all must do)....there is also the kiwi aviation OE....and for sure it will open your eyes and give you a different perspective.....that is also your choice
matty....you have a flying job yet?????
Waka mate....pig hunting in Kuwait ay???.... you bloody beauty!!!!send photos of those piggys..........
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MattyJ the only one who gets rich from my income is Gordon Brown. Reckon I had a higher disposable income when on the dole and Georgie Pie was $1 for anything. And the pigs in the desert in Kuwait PB mate your welcome to them, stuff running around that area.
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Georgie Pie was $1 for anything
Many a Georgie Pie consumed...whilst only being able to see outta one eye at 2am..washed down with a banana thickshake....
OOOOppps thread creep......moan moan Air Nelson... b'stards Air Nelson moan
