Qantas Start Dates
I am reliably informed that 170 new S/Os are required very soon. A VERY senior management pilot told me this 2 days ago - QF has 84 on hold file, now needs 170. Are your resumes up to date? My info comes from the VERY (CM) top!! Start next week.
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Yes all very positive, but I must say that I'm frustrated by LOA161.
For those that don't know about it, LOA 161 dictates that Qantas Cadets get a seniority number the day they graduate their training. Cadets are then placed in the industry to gain experience.
I have nothing against Cadets, some are actually good mates of mine. This is not a Cadet bashing post.
So here I am, I have the correct experience for Qantas mainline, and I joined 2 years ago. With this new intake starting soon, I still may not move far up the pecking order as there are 25 "LOA 161" seniority spots above me (taken from the Q seniority list)
What can I do about it? Complain to the AIPA - no ones listening. It's a small issue, like sharing blank lines.
Suck it up I guess! If you're looking to join Qantas, be aware that unless you're at the start of a big wave, you will remain junior for a long time (on anything but the 744)
Hell, lets look at worse case "hypothetically" - if I'm on the A330, and I joined Aug 2005, then I'm at the bottom of the list. It's coming up 2 years and I've been stuck with the ****ty rosters, and standbys. There are 25 "LOA 161" spots above me. Forecasting maybe 40 new guys onto the A330. Well if all 25 cadets go to the A330, then I'm still stuck at the bottom rotating - in some of the best recruiting times ever!
(Of course best case is that none of the Cadets go to the A330 and I finally move up to be a senior blank line holder)
Look, I'm lucky to have a job at Qantas, and I don't want to be seen complaining about the diamonds shoved up my bum, but unless you're recruited to the 744, it's a long time at the bottom.
Food for thought perhaps?
Regards
Friday
(edit grammar)
For those that don't know about it, LOA 161 dictates that Qantas Cadets get a seniority number the day they graduate their training. Cadets are then placed in the industry to gain experience.
I have nothing against Cadets, some are actually good mates of mine. This is not a Cadet bashing post.
So here I am, I have the correct experience for Qantas mainline, and I joined 2 years ago. With this new intake starting soon, I still may not move far up the pecking order as there are 25 "LOA 161" seniority spots above me (taken from the Q seniority list)
What can I do about it? Complain to the AIPA - no ones listening. It's a small issue, like sharing blank lines.
Suck it up I guess! If you're looking to join Qantas, be aware that unless you're at the start of a big wave, you will remain junior for a long time (on anything but the 744)
Hell, lets look at worse case "hypothetically" - if I'm on the A330, and I joined Aug 2005, then I'm at the bottom of the list. It's coming up 2 years and I've been stuck with the ****ty rosters, and standbys. There are 25 "LOA 161" spots above me. Forecasting maybe 40 new guys onto the A330. Well if all 25 cadets go to the A330, then I'm still stuck at the bottom rotating - in some of the best recruiting times ever!
(Of course best case is that none of the Cadets go to the A330 and I finally move up to be a senior blank line holder)
Look, I'm lucky to have a job at Qantas, and I don't want to be seen complaining about the diamonds shoved up my bum, but unless you're recruited to the 744, it's a long time at the bottom.
Food for thought perhaps?
Regards
Friday
(edit grammar)
Gday all,
Ive heard around the traps that there is a course in early July, and one in late july/early august. After that, not sure. Does anyone know whether they will be for the 330 or the 744??
I was under the impression that the 744 was undercrewed, whereas there were alot of 330 drivers sitting around. Is this not the case???
Cheers
Ive heard around the traps that there is a course in early July, and one in late july/early august. After that, not sure. Does anyone know whether they will be for the 330 or the 744??
I was under the impression that the 744 was undercrewed, whereas there were alot of 330 drivers sitting around. Is this not the case???
Cheers
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ManFriday,
Perhaps look at it this way.
If those cadets had gone straight into QF, then maybe you may not have got the job for some time.
I'd rather be on the bottom of the list and jumped by a few than not on the list at all!
Planned S/O numbers are huge. With 4 more A330's and 6 more when J* hand them back (2010 or something like that), I don't think you need to worry about being junior forever.
Perhaps look at it this way.
If those cadets had gone straight into QF, then maybe you may not have got the job for some time.
I'd rather be on the bottom of the list and jumped by a few than not on the list at all!
Planned S/O numbers are huge. With 4 more A330's and 6 more when J* hand them back (2010 or something like that), I don't think you need to worry about being junior forever.
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Murgatroid,
Yes I'm fortunate to be employed.
I would have no issue if they were employed and went straight into mainline, however they didn't. The company in effect said "You're not expereienced enough, go and get some experience. In the meantime we'll hold your spot and recruit someone who does have the experience"
My view of a seniority list is that those with the higher number have more experience on the company aircraft under the company rules/procedures/sops. This is why promotion is offered top down on the list.
Anyhow, I didn't want to drag this thread into a debate on LOA161, I just wanted to highlight that if you gain employment with Qantas you may spend a reasonable length of time at the bottom.
Good luck to all applying.
Murgatroid, just another point regarding me being junior forever......
Excluding the top 7 SO's on the A330, the seniority numbers start at 2130. How long do you think it's going to take for movement there!
Back to my box........
Yes I'm fortunate to be employed.
If those cadets had gone straight into QF, then maybe you may not have got the job for some time.
My view of a seniority list is that those with the higher number have more experience on the company aircraft under the company rules/procedures/sops. This is why promotion is offered top down on the list.
Anyhow, I didn't want to drag this thread into a debate on LOA161, I just wanted to highlight that if you gain employment with Qantas you may spend a reasonable length of time at the bottom.
Good luck to all applying.
Murgatroid, just another point regarding me being junior forever......
Excluding the top 7 SO's on the A330, the seniority numbers start at 2130. How long do you think it's going to take for movement there!
Back to my box........
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This LOA was the reason I lost total faith in the previous AIPA administration. It was signed by them on behalf of people who were not members of the union to the disadvantage of members who had paid their dues to the organisation.
Overall, one of the biggest things that had everyone lose faith in the administration and as a result they were so glamorously removed from power.
Overall, one of the biggest things that had everyone lose faith in the administration and as a result they were so glamorously removed from power.
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How short of S/O's are they really on the 400? Latest divisors for them are less than everyone else, and additional leave slots were advised as being available for the next bid period. Have some from the Classic just come accross?
I believe the 330's start arriving later this year or early next year, and they have to allow 3 months from when new hires start to being fully operational, so there will be a few 330 courses in the coming months.
I believe the 330's start arriving later this year or early next year, and they have to allow 3 months from when new hires start to being fully operational, so there will be a few 330 courses in the coming months.
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I find it hard to believe that there is no way to get rid of LOA161. I've talked to a lot of guys about it, and the vast majority think it stinks--even those that are not affected by it. I've been rotating since I joined and it doesn't seem fair that when a cadet joins they get a permanent pattern and bidding rights over guys who have been around potentially for a couple of years.
Surely the union could do something if enough noise was made about it?
I certainly have no issue with cadets--it's the policy that bugs me.
Surely the union could do something if enough noise was made about it?
I certainly have no issue with cadets--it's the policy that bugs me.
Nunc est bibendum
I'd be interested in feedback on the following scenario then.
You've flogged your guts out in GA for years. Finally QF give you a call. The day you're due to start they tell you that instead of working for QF they'd like to send you to J* Asia instead.
Would you want your seniority number protected for the date you were originally supposed to start at QF or would you be happy if your seniority number was two years further down the pile? As a matter of course I'd be more than happy for to fight for it to be protected from your original scheduled date of joining. Murgatroid has it spot on.
I do acknowledge the divisiveness of LOA161 and I think consultation and communication regarding it's development and implementation was very average but I don't see it as being inherently 'unfair'. I also find it interesting that it is this issue out of all the 'unfair' things in QF (super seniority for bidding; permanent rotating people when the music stops; 767 and 737 drivers (particularly F/Os) being grossly under paid, etc) that tends to get the most 'air time'. In fact it is those other issues which have significantly more impact on our lives (over the duration of a career) that which don't get the air time that they should- often because we're distracted by 'other' things....and not just LOA161.
Helmet on but I know my head is a long way out of the trench on this one.
You've flogged your guts out in GA for years. Finally QF give you a call. The day you're due to start they tell you that instead of working for QF they'd like to send you to J* Asia instead.
Would you want your seniority number protected for the date you were originally supposed to start at QF or would you be happy if your seniority number was two years further down the pile? As a matter of course I'd be more than happy for to fight for it to be protected from your original scheduled date of joining. Murgatroid has it spot on.
I do acknowledge the divisiveness of LOA161 and I think consultation and communication regarding it's development and implementation was very average but I don't see it as being inherently 'unfair'. I also find it interesting that it is this issue out of all the 'unfair' things in QF (super seniority for bidding; permanent rotating people when the music stops; 767 and 737 drivers (particularly F/Os) being grossly under paid, etc) that tends to get the most 'air time'. In fact it is those other issues which have significantly more impact on our lives (over the duration of a career) that which don't get the air time that they should- often because we're distracted by 'other' things....and not just LOA161.
Helmet on but I know my head is a long way out of the trench on this one.
You've flogged your guts out in GA for years. Finally QF give you a call. The day you're due to start they tell you that instead of working for QF they'd like to send you to J* Asia instead.
Assuming you've busted a gut in GA, QF is ONLY going to give you a call if you meet ALL the requirements to start on DAY ONE. If the GA guys had to do 2 years elsewhere, then presumably EVERYONE (GA, mil etc) would have to do it and we'd all be in the same boat; just as everyone who joins is an SO for however long regardless of experience. Remarkably, all the GA, Mil etc drivers DO meet QF's requirements to start on day one and the cadets, according to QF, do not.
What is annoying about this, especially now that recruiting times are lean, is that these guys/gals can come in straight to permanent pattern, pushing other members back into rotating, or worse, reserve lines. All this without having done one blank line, let alone a reserve line. Those members pushed down the list have every right to be pissed off at this.
This is not cadet bashing; good luck to all the guys and girls about to start.
ruprecht.
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How about the person who is placed with the regionals he/she is given a Qantas uniform and a Staff number and on the same day a cadet is also placed with the same regional, he/she is also given a uniform and a staff number but when the cadet moves over to mainline he/she will immediately have a start date backdated to when he/she completed their course, the other guy/girl who joined with the cadet and as happens moves across to mainline on the same day has to resign from the regional and start again at mainline with a new start date....
Nunc est bibendum
Ruprecht, it's not a red herring. A S/O on completion of the cadet course is OK to commence with QF...and many of them have over the years. That was the intention behind the original courses, the courses in the early '90s and even the course in the late '90s did this for a few years.
Let's not get too literal on what is essentially a philosophical debate. If ANYONE was told they were to go elsewhere for a period of time then I'd want to protect their seniority number- GA, MIL, etc. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that someone is sent to another airline under some deal on a fixed term and yet QF keep employing people underneath.
Of course all of this (including newsensation's example) is solved with a group opportunity list. I've been an advocate of that for a long time.
Let's not get too literal on what is essentially a philosophical debate. If ANYONE was told they were to go elsewhere for a period of time then I'd want to protect their seniority number- GA, MIL, etc. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that someone is sent to another airline under some deal on a fixed term and yet QF keep employing people underneath.
Of course all of this (including newsensation's example) is solved with a group opportunity list. I've been an advocate of that for a long time.
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The only people in QF who think the LOA is good are former cadets. Everybody else thinks it stinks. Personally I think the whole setup is a disgrace, sorry to disagree with you Keg. And my view seems to represent that of the majority.
What about those who have been accepted onto the hold file getting seniority dependent on when they are assessed as suitable for employment? For plenty this means putting your life on hold waiting for the inevitable call up. Decisions on your future are based on this. If it is good for cadets then it is good for others also.
Simple rule that has worked for eternity - you get your number the day you start. Full stop.
What about those who have been accepted onto the hold file getting seniority dependent on when they are assessed as suitable for employment? For plenty this means putting your life on hold waiting for the inevitable call up. Decisions on your future are based on this. If it is good for cadets then it is good for others also.
Simple rule that has worked for eternity - you get your number the day you start. Full stop.
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Direct from the Qantas web page:
"Cadet pilots are not employees of Qantas and Qantas gives no guarantee or commitment of future employment at any time after completion of the training program."
If I am accepted as a Qantas Cadet, does that mean I am a Qantas employee?
"No, Cadet Pilots are not employees of Qantas and Qantas gives no guarantee or commitment of future employment at any time after completion of the training program."
But, a seniority number is given on completion of their course!
Now I can kind of understand for those few courses who had the goal posts moved after they started their Cadet Course that they had to now undertake Industry Placement and delay their Qantas start dates. However, once the industry placement programme was up and running, and folks joined knowing that, there should be no back dating of seniority.
Out of interest Keg, why are the cadets sent for industry placement?
"Cadet pilots are not employees of Qantas and Qantas gives no guarantee or commitment of future employment at any time after completion of the training program."
If I am accepted as a Qantas Cadet, does that mean I am a Qantas employee?
"No, Cadet Pilots are not employees of Qantas and Qantas gives no guarantee or commitment of future employment at any time after completion of the training program."
But, a seniority number is given on completion of their course!
Now I can kind of understand for those few courses who had the goal posts moved after they started their Cadet Course that they had to now undertake Industry Placement and delay their Qantas start dates. However, once the industry placement programme was up and running, and folks joined knowing that, there should be no back dating of seniority.
Out of interest Keg, why are the cadets sent for industry placement?
Last edited by OBNO; 16th Jun 2007 at 12:02.