TCAS safety deficiency and the AIPA, AFAP and GAPAN
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TCAS Equippage
For a long time now nearly all of Australia's civil aircraft have been fitted with mode C transponders. Only a few have TCAS
For what it is worth the only quantification of Transpoder Equippage for light (<5700kg) aircraft that I have seen showed only 54.8% of all aircraft types (VH a/c, RAA, gliders etc) had Mode C or better. Source: CASA 2004
Aircraft Equipment Survey page 32.
I cannot vouch for the efficacy of this survey, perhaps the AOPA brigade may care to comment on that.
Scurvy D. Dog
Thanks for the links.
The next ABIT meeting will make interesting reading/viewing in light of Bob Murphie's comments.
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I Gnu it.
Thanks for that, it is about the number I had in my head, and doubt that the %age has changed much since then.
quick bit of 'rithmetic tells me there are therefore perhaps 4500 to 5000 of the "unseen" lurking out there AND I would 'spect mostly around them places where you needs most to seeum and where the highest concentration of 10-19 pax aircraft are likely to be.
The Big Sky Theory was really only ever in someones imagination.
A bit like phlogiston and Einsteins constant, created to make the formula work properly.
Thanks for that, it is about the number I had in my head, and doubt that the %age has changed much since then.
quick bit of 'rithmetic tells me there are therefore perhaps 4500 to 5000 of the "unseen" lurking out there AND I would 'spect mostly around them places where you needs most to seeum and where the highest concentration of 10-19 pax aircraft are likely to be.The Big Sky Theory was really only ever in someones imagination.
A bit like phlogiston and Einsteins constant, created to make the formula work properly.
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OZBUSDRIVER
Big Sky --- dead and buried --- not by a long shot --- get onto the
Minister's web site, have a very close look at his statement of 14
Sept.2006, Class G as the default, and anything more only by a proper
risk assessment and cost/benefit justification. That's Cabinet policy
for Australian NAS.
Don't confuse traffic density in EU and Australia, UK, Ireland, most
of Western Europe and a swag of the old eastern block will fit into NSW.
Supporting a major extension of "controlled airspace", as AOPA now
seem to be doing, will further shaft rural and regional air services
that are already marginal, quite apart from what it will do to
remaining AOPA owner members and what's left of light GA.
How do you reckon Rex's or ******'s accounts would look on the
thinner routes, if they didn't get the present "under 15t" exemption
on charges, and had to support D or higher services everywhere to ground.
" Notwithstanding, air transport and most business aviation
operations should be contained within airspace within which positive
air traffic control services are provided to all aircraft (i.e. Class
A,B, C or D)". ---- From an ICAO report that AOPA seems to support.
None, as in nil, naught, zero, bugga all of the studies done here produce
credible benefits for mandatory ADS-B, Australia is not the US
Aluminium Overcast or NSW sized EU/ECAC.
BTW, I have refrained from commenting on airspace matters here or on other forums because I don't feel qualified to do so. On this now discussed matter of ADSB, you have noted that I possibly have a personal interest due to owning a $30,000 rag and tube aeroplane that someone wants me to spend $10,000+ on some new 'gadget' that won't give me any benefit. I do feel I have the right to an opinion on such matters, don't you?
bushy notes the bloody obvious and something I subscribe to. My Colt has a Mode C transponder simply so anyone with a TCAS can see me. Surely gaunty agrees that I shouldn't have to install a TCAS to have extra security.
I haven't got through all Dog's links, I have enough homework for this weekend on a slow computer.
Big Sky --- dead and buried --- not by a long shot --- get onto the
Minister's web site, have a very close look at his statement of 14
Sept.2006, Class G as the default, and anything more only by a proper
risk assessment and cost/benefit justification. That's Cabinet policy
for Australian NAS.
Don't confuse traffic density in EU and Australia, UK, Ireland, most
of Western Europe and a swag of the old eastern block will fit into NSW.
Supporting a major extension of "controlled airspace", as AOPA now
seem to be doing, will further shaft rural and regional air services
that are already marginal, quite apart from what it will do to
remaining AOPA owner members and what's left of light GA.
How do you reckon Rex's or ******'s accounts would look on the
thinner routes, if they didn't get the present "under 15t" exemption
on charges, and had to support D or higher services everywhere to ground.
" Notwithstanding, air transport and most business aviation
operations should be contained within airspace within which positive
air traffic control services are provided to all aircraft (i.e. Class
A,B, C or D)". ---- From an ICAO report that AOPA seems to support.
None, as in nil, naught, zero, bugga all of the studies done here produce
credible benefits for mandatory ADS-B, Australia is not the US
Aluminium Overcast or NSW sized EU/ECAC.
BTW, I have refrained from commenting on airspace matters here or on other forums because I don't feel qualified to do so. On this now discussed matter of ADSB, you have noted that I possibly have a personal interest due to owning a $30,000 rag and tube aeroplane that someone wants me to spend $10,000+ on some new 'gadget' that won't give me any benefit. I do feel I have the right to an opinion on such matters, don't you?
bushy notes the bloody obvious and something I subscribe to. My Colt has a Mode C transponder simply so anyone with a TCAS can see me. Surely gaunty agrees that I shouldn't have to install a TCAS to have extra security.
I haven't got through all Dog's links, I have enough homework for this weekend on a slow computer.
I'm in one of those moods
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Bob
…. That’s the point of the discussion I guess … if it was 10G+ and no ATS DTI or ‘in’ then I agree (except for the ADS-B TCAS guys, but you already have a mode C so …)
.
At the end of the day, it does not matter ‘who’ is right or wrong, rather that we all know ‘what’ is fact or fiction. These discussions would not be necessary if we had faith in the processes from the pollie bunker in CB right thru to things such as the assessment of the suitability of airspace at the ALA that Bushy’s mates Luscome resides, through to the terminal area in YSSY. …. I can hear everyone exhaling with exhaustion (me too) .. but unless we sort the chaff from the wheat, and agree (based on comprehensive input), we will continue to have the cancer of half baked single interests changing the ebb and flow of policy forever…. AT WHAT COST!
.
a general side note ….. been asking myself too often of late … why bother having these debates, is it better to leave fate to the hunter?..
.
… this morning for instance, went to work feeling quite hollow thinking about the issues we face, not any singular issue, rather the whole …… damn it .. pessimism does not sit well with me .. chin up me says it’s gunna be a beautiful day..
.
… A320’s, B737’s, chasing each other around (nice job with that tandem visual approach sight and follow to 14R and 32L respectively chaps) , DHC8’s and C404’s, the red rat charters, old mate wheels off at sparrow fart for a days tuna fishing at St Helens, Ag drivers smoking along down in the weeds, helo’s back and forth giving punters the most spectacular view of the beautiful Tamar valley, the Aeroclub folks off to Bridport for lunch (nice), or a scenic down to Coles Bay in the SR20 (nnnice), training flights in the new Jabiru’s .. just to name a few …. even a quiet moment to watch QF63 o/h at FL300 on the great circle (must have had a wash, the belly was clean
) …. a reasonably busy shift …. everyone played with good humour, and most importantly with confidence and enthusiasm …. … some days are diamonds!
.
.. at shift end, walking away from the glass tree I had pause to reflect on that which occupied my mind on the way in to work at dark o clock … why is such a dynamic and exciting industry bleeding? .. some would have us believe it is inevitable .. a ‘pipe dream’ to think otherwise ….. is it really at risk of disappearing?? ….. there are problems no doubt … it is all too easy though to accept the pessimistic howls from vested non-flying interests …. Nup… …. most days are diamonds .. for me today was just one of them …. this is what keeps me (us) going in the face of the perceived adversity ….it’s simple really … we ain’t gunna let it happen … are we?!
.
.. clearly there are those who do not see what we see and think aviation is all just a smoke and mirrors game for the rich? … this misrepresentation of the GA majority has been allowed to happen for too long and needs immediate refocus …. we need to drag these non flying policy making buffoons (that load our GA industry with cost after cost) to a fly-in … meet the real people …. see how many of them are your typical hard working Aussies, many of whom beg and borrow to pursue their love of flight .. driving clapped out Datsun’s, wearing socks with holes just so they an afford to hire that C172 to keep current with the goal of sharing the privilege with friends and family whenever possible …. looking forward to those outings as if each was indeed a diamond!
.
….. each time I attend events such as Narromine, (Mangalore, Aviex, Camden Aisrhow for the Kids 2001, RAA fly-in etc), but particularly in recent times Narromine, it is like medicine.
Watching the common purpose of numerous volunteers working like one arm paper hangers doing everything from parking aircraft, to feeding the masses, to administration … for my small part … it is bloody eye opening to see the number of aircraft in the circuit at times (reminds me of BK before LSP .. but don’t get me started on that) …. RT words will only go in edgeways …. with a few tricks learned it is surprising the number of aircraft that can be moved safely at these events …. can it be done better than the ‘pseudo’ Unicom …. no doubt …. is it easy to promulgate CAGRO or D for temporary events …. **** no … for a whole host of reasons not least volunteers and time available beforehand ……so we work with what we have ….. hours spinning the melon around trying to keep an eye on the circling area, watching proximities as best one can with that many aircraft, adrenalin is an amazing thing … madness … why do it I hear you ask?
.
…. after last light when the props have stopped, ….. I grab a cold beer and have a walk around, quietly looking and listening to the cheer in voices of aviators of all types of aerial conveyances from the Roulettes to Supa Connie, Neptune, Mig15’,RV’s, Technam’s, to our friend in the flying donut and everything in between.. The camaraderie between strangers is palpable, the din unstoppable, pouring over equipment, sharing a meal and a cleansing ale or 3, learning a thing or 2.. folks from all walks of life, together to enjoy the common affliction of flight, ….. some days are diamonds!
.
….. how many of you have watched friends and acquaintances throw their hands in the air and walk away from flying in recent years … I have, all too often. Some of them people who have in the past been prepared to do anything to be part of the whole that is aviation!? … this is what has my advocacy juices going .. it is the glimpses of what this unique industry could/should/use to be like. I want to know from all of you (who clearly give a ****e as much as I do by simply turning up in this place and others year after year) …. is it worth the time? .. are we achieving anything???…..
.
… I consider myself most fortunate to be able to work for the industry I have spent the better part of my life living and breathing …. tell me I am not wasting my time!
.
Cheers
.
Dog
.
P.S. Yeh saw that bit Gary, thought I would leave it out to see how many were actually looking at the info ….. as usual you passed the test with flying colours!
someone wants me to spend $10,000+ on some new 'gadget' that won't give me any benefit.
.
At the end of the day, it does not matter ‘who’ is right or wrong, rather that we all know ‘what’ is fact or fiction. These discussions would not be necessary if we had faith in the processes from the pollie bunker in CB right thru to things such as the assessment of the suitability of airspace at the ALA that Bushy’s mates Luscome resides, through to the terminal area in YSSY. …. I can hear everyone exhaling with exhaustion (me too) .. but unless we sort the chaff from the wheat, and agree (based on comprehensive input), we will continue to have the cancer of half baked single interests changing the ebb and flow of policy forever…. AT WHAT COST!
.
a general side note ….. been asking myself too often of late … why bother having these debates, is it better to leave fate to the hunter?..
.
… this morning for instance, went to work feeling quite hollow thinking about the issues we face, not any singular issue, rather the whole …… damn it .. pessimism does not sit well with me .. chin up me says it’s gunna be a beautiful day..
.
… A320’s, B737’s, chasing each other around (nice job with that tandem visual approach sight and follow to 14R and 32L respectively chaps) , DHC8’s and C404’s, the red rat charters, old mate wheels off at sparrow fart for a days tuna fishing at St Helens, Ag drivers smoking along down in the weeds, helo’s back and forth giving punters the most spectacular view of the beautiful Tamar valley, the Aeroclub folks off to Bridport for lunch (nice), or a scenic down to Coles Bay in the SR20 (nnnice), training flights in the new Jabiru’s .. just to name a few …. even a quiet moment to watch QF63 o/h at FL300 on the great circle (must have had a wash, the belly was clean
) …. a reasonably busy shift …. everyone played with good humour, and most importantly with confidence and enthusiasm …. … some days are diamonds!.
.. at shift end, walking away from the glass tree I had pause to reflect on that which occupied my mind on the way in to work at dark o clock … why is such a dynamic and exciting industry bleeding? .. some would have us believe it is inevitable .. a ‘pipe dream’ to think otherwise ….. is it really at risk of disappearing?? ….. there are problems no doubt … it is all too easy though to accept the pessimistic howls from vested non-flying interests …. Nup… …. most days are diamonds .. for me today was just one of them …. this is what keeps me (us) going in the face of the perceived adversity ….it’s simple really … we ain’t gunna let it happen … are we?!
.
.. clearly there are those who do not see what we see and think aviation is all just a smoke and mirrors game for the rich? … this misrepresentation of the GA majority has been allowed to happen for too long and needs immediate refocus …. we need to drag these non flying policy making buffoons (that load our GA industry with cost after cost) to a fly-in … meet the real people …. see how many of them are your typical hard working Aussies, many of whom beg and borrow to pursue their love of flight .. driving clapped out Datsun’s, wearing socks with holes just so they an afford to hire that C172 to keep current with the goal of sharing the privilege with friends and family whenever possible …. looking forward to those outings as if each was indeed a diamond!
.
….. each time I attend events such as Narromine, (Mangalore, Aviex, Camden Aisrhow for the Kids 2001, RAA fly-in etc), but particularly in recent times Narromine, it is like medicine.
Watching the common purpose of numerous volunteers working like one arm paper hangers doing everything from parking aircraft, to feeding the masses, to administration … for my small part … it is bloody eye opening to see the number of aircraft in the circuit at times (reminds me of BK before LSP .. but don’t get me started on that) …. RT words will only go in edgeways …. with a few tricks learned it is surprising the number of aircraft that can be moved safely at these events …. can it be done better than the ‘pseudo’ Unicom …. no doubt …. is it easy to promulgate CAGRO or D for temporary events …. **** no … for a whole host of reasons not least volunteers and time available beforehand ……so we work with what we have ….. hours spinning the melon around trying to keep an eye on the circling area, watching proximities as best one can with that many aircraft, adrenalin is an amazing thing … madness … why do it I hear you ask?
.
…. after last light when the props have stopped, ….. I grab a cold beer and have a walk around, quietly looking and listening to the cheer in voices of aviators of all types of aerial conveyances from the Roulettes to Supa Connie, Neptune, Mig15’,RV’s, Technam’s, to our friend in the flying donut and everything in between.. The camaraderie between strangers is palpable, the din unstoppable, pouring over equipment, sharing a meal and a cleansing ale or 3, learning a thing or 2.. folks from all walks of life, together to enjoy the common affliction of flight, ….. some days are diamonds!
.
….. how many of you have watched friends and acquaintances throw their hands in the air and walk away from flying in recent years … I have, all too often. Some of them people who have in the past been prepared to do anything to be part of the whole that is aviation!? … this is what has my advocacy juices going .. it is the glimpses of what this unique industry could/should/use to be like. I want to know from all of you (who clearly give a ****e as much as I do by simply turning up in this place and others year after year) …. is it worth the time? .. are we achieving anything???…..
.
… I consider myself most fortunate to be able to work for the industry I have spent the better part of my life living and breathing …. tell me I am not wasting my time!
.
Cheers
.
Dog
.
P.S. Yeh saw that bit Gary, thought I would leave it out to see how many were actually looking at the info ….. as usual you passed the test with flying colours!
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Bob
he does, never said nuffink otherwise. Wot I said was all the TCAS in th eowrld is no good wivout peeps having Xponders.
SDD
Surely gaunty agrees that I shouldn't have to install a TCAS to have extra security.
SDD
most days are diamonds
Thread Starter
Scurvy.D.Dog, an excellent posting and excellent information (the posting with all of the downloads). It shows what a complete nightmare ADS-B is at the moment.
As I have stated before, it looks to me to be the Betamax/VHS problem all over again. I particularly noted the posting by the International Council of Aircraft Owners and Pilots Associations:
Also note the very important comment under the “What GA needs” page:
It is still early days of course. When I ordered my CJ3 I asked to have ADS-B ‘out’, but from what I could make out (I could never get a definite price) it was going to cost over $100,000.
I have now written to Honeywell to find out the cost of an ADS-B KT73 transponder for my Cessna C208B, and I have written again to Collins for an updated price on ADS-B ‘out’ for the Proline 21 system in the CJ3. I will post the answers here. I have a feeling that they are either going to be staggering prices, or not yet available. We will see.
The first link with the Raytheon submission seems to me to make a lot of sense. In fact, I just can’t see the FAA going ahead with the dual system now that they have XM WX weather to transmit real-time weather information etc. When they came up with the UAT Capstone Project, there was no such thing as direct satellite weather to the aircraft cockpit at low cost. This changes everything.
I have a feeling that we may see the US go to ADS-B Mode S squitter and rely on TCAS for aircraft to aircraft resolution advisories.
It will certainly be interesting to see what happens internationally. Personally I cannot see what the desperate hurry is for Australia to be one of the leaders in this.
OZBUSDRIVER, you state:
OZBUSDRIVER, that is just it. I have never pushed for a system. I am the person who says we should wait and find out what is going to happen in other leading aviation countries. Where did you ever get an idea that I was pushing for a particular system? I do agree that I have said that I believe ADS-B is the way to go, however it would be very risky for Australia to leap in too early – it will be a disadvantage for us.
As I have stated before, it looks to me to be the Betamax/VHS problem all over again. I particularly noted the posting by the International Council of Aircraft Owners and Pilots Associations:
· Most GA can NOT afford dual link equipage
· The most prominent technology – successfully tested over the last 15 years is VDL Mode 4 …
· What is wrong with using something which has been invented in Europe if there is no single system worldwide?
· The most prominent technology – successfully tested over the last 15 years is VDL Mode 4 …
· What is wrong with using something which has been invented in Europe if there is no single system worldwide?
ADS-B, if not properly implemented, it may become a black hole for more millions of €s.
I have now written to Honeywell to find out the cost of an ADS-B KT73 transponder for my Cessna C208B, and I have written again to Collins for an updated price on ADS-B ‘out’ for the Proline 21 system in the CJ3. I will post the answers here. I have a feeling that they are either going to be staggering prices, or not yet available. We will see.
The first link with the Raytheon submission seems to me to make a lot of sense. In fact, I just can’t see the FAA going ahead with the dual system now that they have XM WX weather to transmit real-time weather information etc. When they came up with the UAT Capstone Project, there was no such thing as direct satellite weather to the aircraft cockpit at low cost. This changes everything.
I have a feeling that we may see the US go to ADS-B Mode S squitter and rely on TCAS for aircraft to aircraft resolution advisories.
It will certainly be interesting to see what happens internationally. Personally I cannot see what the desperate hurry is for Australia to be one of the leaders in this.
OZBUSDRIVER, you state:
Dick, I cannot understand why you continue to push for a system that may well be going the same way as NDBs.
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Invitation to submit article
Dick S
If, subsequent to the AFR article and in consequence of the many postings on this thread, you'd like to submit a further article....
I can offer you as many column inches (as you'd need) in a magazine read worldwide by aviation professionals.
Just email me at [email protected]
UNC
If, subsequent to the AFR article and in consequence of the many postings on this thread, you'd like to submit a further article....
I can offer you as many column inches (as you'd need) in a magazine read worldwide by aviation professionals.
Just email me at [email protected]
UNC
Dick,
I'll give you a straight answer straight up: YES. Your logic totally escapes me, but yes, I understand your point of view. Thank you very much. At last, you have answered the question that has been asked many times on this thread over days and days. Do us all a favour next time and just answer as soon as you are asked please! 
Of course, I will agree with you when, together with all the safety requirements that these other countries have, we also have their infrastructure (eg radar coverage) which serves to make their systems safer than the 1950s "eyeballs out" system you had wished upon us but which was fortunately knocked on the head by realists. Let's have the whole kit and caboodle, not this "pick this bit" and "add this bit" nonsense that you have been pushing for.
I will say again – my first aim is to get our airlines complying with the safety requirements that exist in other leading aviation countries. When we are up to speed on these safety requirements in Australia, I will certainly look at pushing for more onerous requirements for transponders. However I will not do this if it means that the GA industry is further damaged. That is a pretty simple and straightforward explanation. Do you understand it?
Of course, I will agree with you when, together with all the safety requirements that these other countries have, we also have their infrastructure (eg radar coverage) which serves to make their systems safer than the 1950s "eyeballs out" system you had wished upon us but which was fortunately knocked on the head by realists. Let's have the whole kit and caboodle, not this "pick this bit" and "add this bit" nonsense that you have been pushing for.
I'm in one of those moods
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There is a huge opportunity here …. indulge me for a few more minutes!
…. on balance, the technology was only ever going to go this way (with a couple of MINOR variations) … that was what we were trying to tell you last time around. As you can see from the growing list of manufacturers .. the only ‘nightmare’ (if it is one) is sovereign counties working out how best to fund fleet wide … sure there are various views ….. at this point!
…. jumping on the UAT bandwagon would have been the Betamax all over again!
… that’s exactly right …. The bottom line is pretty simple IMHO ….. it has to be funded (fleet wide) …. It has to go to tender (this is where Oz manufacturers could do very well here and abroad, Xchange rates being what they are ….. best unit price?) …. It has to be ordered in bulk (economy of scale … further reduce unit price dramatically) …. those who do not have mode C get it first! .. whilst the units are being installed/delivered (installation factored in), the ground stations (WAMLat/ADS-B) going in where MSSR is due for replacement, any additional units prioritised for areas based on AeroStudy priority (the triangle etc) …. The avionics already developed will support SAT for the other stuff (arguably better anyhow for bandwidth protection of the important part .. traffic!)
.
.. was it Senex that had all the bases covered for GA?!?
… yep, lets get moving, lets put the cost savings (safety and efficiency, for commercial and GA) on the table … Mr Howard receives a handsome dividend each year from ATS … this program will be saving on future maintenance and purchases of RADAR heads, traffic management efficiencies, huge leap in SA safety … someone correct me if I am out of the ball park … even if you roughed out the worse case costs of roll-out … how long do you think it would take the Gov’t to recoup the outlay from offset savings?? .... those with the gear (commercial) are winning already, as will GA when installed! …. from then on …. funds for further improvements or back to industry or whatever!
…. Have you written to any non-US manufactures??
…. It will make a good starting point for price negotiation (for existing com glass systems as well as GA install)!
….
..maybe for the glass kero burners … GA will get much the same from other manufacturers …. Unless Honeywell compete for GA as well … in which case the invoice had better be lean and mean
… unless I missed something, it seems pretty clear where the world is headed with ADS-B
…. wasn’t this thread about urgency of adopting international best practice (effective, efficient and affordable) anti-collision safety measures?
.
… nite all!
It shows what a complete nightmare ADS-B is at the moment.
As I have stated before, it looks to me to be the Betamax/VHS problem all over again.
ADS-B, if not properly implemented, it may become a black hole for more millions of €s.
.
.. was it Senex that had all the bases covered for GA?!?
It is still early days of course.
I have now written to Honeywell to find out the cost of an ADS-B KT73 transponder for my Cessna C208B, and I have written again to Collins for an updated price on ADS-B ‘out’ for the Proline 21 system in the CJ3. I will post the answers here.
I have a feeling that they are either going to be staggering prices, or not yet available. We will see.
The first link with the Raytheon submission seems to me to make a lot of sense. In fact, I just can’t see the FAA going ahead with the dual system now that they have XM WX weather to transmit real-time weather information etc. When they came up with the UAT Capstone Project, there was no such thing as direct satellite weather to the aircraft cockpit at low cost. This changes everything.
I have a feeling that we may see the US go to ADS-B Mode S squitter and rely on TCAS for aircraft to aircraft resolution advisories.
It will certainly be interesting to see what happens internationally.
Personally I cannot see what the desperate hurry is for Australia to be one of the leaders in this.
.
… nite all!
Last edited by Scurvy.D.Dog; 5th Mar 2007 at 14:05. Reason: fatigue induced gramma farkups .. time for the cot!
Thread Starter
Scurvy.D.Dog, I am fascinated and have one question. If you are so convinced that ADS-B is the way to go, why is your employer spending millions of dollars in installing a multilateration system in Tasmania? Could it be that there are people at Airservices who are not convinced that ADS-B, transmitting a GPS position, is the way to go in the short to medium term, and that is why they are going ahead with multilateration which will work with standard Mode C transponders?
I would love to have an answer on this.
It should be noted that Airservices has ADS-B ground stations going in across Australia. They have obviously decided to use multilateration Tasmania.
By the way, you state:
I cannot agree. If you look at all the postings there seems to be a lot of interest in the Swedish VDL Mode 4 system for GA. The International Council of Aircraft Owners and Pilots Associations states:
Of course, Airservices are not planning VDL Mode 4 for GA. Do you have a comment on this?
Scurvy.D.Dog, you state:
No, it was actually about Australia harmonising with world requirements for TCAS for 10 to 30 passenger aircraft. This TCAS exists today and can save lives today. Any ADS-B system (even if the decision was made today) would take several years before it could be certified and the safety benefits of ADS-B ‘in’ could be achieved.
I would love to have an answer on this.
It should be noted that Airservices has ADS-B ground stations going in across Australia. They have obviously decided to use multilateration Tasmania.
By the way, you state:
… unless I missed something, it seems pretty clear where the world is headed with ADS-B
The most prominent technology – successfully tested over the last 15 years is VDL Mode 4
Scurvy.D.Dog, you state:
…. wasn’t this thread about urgency of adopting international best practice (effective, efficient and affordable) anti-collision safety measures?
I'm in one of those moods
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Dick … I did give you the answer/s …. Go back and read page 3 and 4 again!
.
It is my view (not necessarily representative of AsA’s view, although I would be surprised if it varies) that WAMLat was commissioned for TAS for three main reasons:-
.
1. It is to a ‘proving’ trial for system accuracy and reliability .. with eventual roll-out to the terminal area in YSSY to replace PRM which is approaching life end!
2. To have comparative data available it had to be put somewhere where RADAR exists (Temporary RADAR like LT is the natural choice given the RADAR will be removed at some point in the not to distant future)
3. Once commissioned the coverage will improve and remain for air traffic in TAS (there is a lot more of it than people think). Since the introduction of surveillance services in TAS during AusNAS2b, the increase in efficiency of services being provided by ATS i.e. HB TWR, LT TWR and ML centre is frankly huge. With traffic growth, it would onerous and restrictive to be doing these areas 'purely' procedurally …. Surveillance of any sort has paid for it self may times already … (it can be calculated and shown)
. Point 3 is the crux of what has been discussed for other areas (mining triangle etc)
.
Regarding VDL 4 …. I must confess to not understanding the Swedish position on this. Perhaps being 15 years in the testing, they feel they do not want to waste that! What is telling though is the other nations assessing options seem to agree that it is not necessary and other options are …. In any event, from my reading of the information, some manufacturers have open architecture so it can be included or not as the case may be. In our context, it will matter not as Oz owned equipment being compatible with the rest of the world.!
.
The final statement I would make about the ‘holes in the anti-collison’ cake is this …. Time wasted is additional time available for an accident …. Existing Mode C/TCAS WAMLat wil close some of that error opportunity until ADS-B is fitted fleet wide …. As far as I am aware that is the most effective and timely way of addressing these deficiency issues ….. had we started 12months ago, there would have been less holes than today! …. Lets not waste any more time!
.
Cheers
.
Dog
.
.. I'm off fishing for a coupla days ... see yas on the flip side
.
It is my view (not necessarily representative of AsA’s view, although I would be surprised if it varies) that WAMLat was commissioned for TAS for three main reasons:-
.
1. It is to a ‘proving’ trial for system accuracy and reliability .. with eventual roll-out to the terminal area in YSSY to replace PRM which is approaching life end!
2. To have comparative data available it had to be put somewhere where RADAR exists (Temporary RADAR like LT is the natural choice given the RADAR will be removed at some point in the not to distant future)
3. Once commissioned the coverage will improve and remain for air traffic in TAS (there is a lot more of it than people think). Since the introduction of surveillance services in TAS during AusNAS2b, the increase in efficiency of services being provided by ATS i.e. HB TWR, LT TWR and ML centre is frankly huge. With traffic growth, it would onerous and restrictive to be doing these areas 'purely' procedurally …. Surveillance of any sort has paid for it self may times already … (it can be calculated and shown)
. Point 3 is the crux of what has been discussed for other areas (mining triangle etc)
.
Regarding VDL 4 …. I must confess to not understanding the Swedish position on this. Perhaps being 15 years in the testing, they feel they do not want to waste that! What is telling though is the other nations assessing options seem to agree that it is not necessary and other options are …. In any event, from my reading of the information, some manufacturers have open architecture so it can be included or not as the case may be. In our context, it will matter not as Oz owned equipment being compatible with the rest of the world.!
.
The final statement I would make about the ‘holes in the anti-collison’ cake is this …. Time wasted is additional time available for an accident …. Existing Mode C/TCAS WAMLat wil close some of that error opportunity until ADS-B is fitted fleet wide …. As far as I am aware that is the most effective and timely way of addressing these deficiency issues ….. had we started 12months ago, there would have been less holes than today! …. Lets not waste any more time!
.
Cheers
.
Dog
.
.. I'm off fishing for a coupla days
... see yas on the flip side
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There is magic
There is some magic emerging here. Instead of the all too common sport of dickbashing, regardless of what he says, we have some logical discussion and informative posts. There are intelligent, knowledgeable people posting here, and until recently some of their wisdon has been sadly wasted. Many of these latest posts are informative, and sensible. Unfortunately not all.
Scurvy
Your post no 186 was brilliant. I must comment on a couple of things. All days are diamonds sometimes we do not see the brilliance.
You obviously live in a coastal city as you forgot to mention he Cessna 340 that carries the cattle buyers halfway across the country where they buy eight million dollars worth of cattle, and fly home the following day,right across the country. Or the cherokee six that takes the architect and two engineers 150 nm out of town to a site where they are supervising construction of a small community, or the piper lance that goes 350 nm out of town to pick up a man who has serious dental problems, and has taken a file to his own teeth. The Lance flies him 700 km to the nearest dentist. Or the C210 that flies the mail and fresh bread and toyota parts out to many cattle stations. Or the Chieftain and Baron that flies teachers, medical staff community residents and freight to cummunities up to 700 nm away, and come back the following day. Or the Lance that flies electricians 300nm out to a community, where they fix lots of electrical problems and shut off power to a steel framed house that was live,(240 volts) and arcing to the fence. (they would have to fly back another day to fix that one) And all the while the RFDS PC 12's are busy dealing with the really urgent life threatening problems despite being uderstaffed and having to raise money from the general public to keep going.
Or the many flights out to the gold mines 300 nm away.Or the C172R that flies all day, most of the time below 500 ft agl inspecting a pipeline, and keeping oil company's insurance premiums down. And many many other flights.
There are a few 737's, mostly in the middle of the day, and some night freighters
When you talk of commercial flights, or GA flights this is confusing, as most of the flying out here IS GA, and nearly all of it IS commercial GA. Nearly all in class G airspace, and in some areas we cannot even use VHF radio as our authorities have not bothered to put in the equipment needed to talk to us They do not seem to care. They live in coastal cities..
Most city people (and that means nearly all Australians) think that aviation consists of big airlines and small aeroplanes that are used by silvertails or weekenders for fun. And within the J curve that is mostly the case. although there are a few flying schools doing useful work training pilots for overseas airlines, and a lot of small aeroplanes owned by people who are not silvertails.
But in the other 90% of the country there are lots of small COMMERCIAL aeroplanes doing all sorts of essential work. Most of them are piston powered, (and obviously not good enough for the flood of city trained airline wannabies who are flooding out bush to get a job)
The outback has been insultingly labelled the GAFA (great Australian F--- all) by some, and this attitude is all too common both within the aviation community and the regulator.(the regulators live on the coast) The gold and diamonds, uranium, zinc and lots of other things the city slickers use comes from the GAFA, and there is lots more out there still to be found and developed. It really is the great Australian wealth generator. And the people who fly around in the little aeroplanes are doing it. Our small charter operators and CPL's are an essential part of this development, providing the essential transport necessary for normal (and not so normal) things.
GA (that's a stupid term, which originated from sales people) includes much needed COMMERCIAL air services to people in 90% of Australia where the airlines cannot operate safely or economically. It is a major part of Australi's transport system which is almost invisible to city people.
All days are diamondsAnd most of the gold and diamonds the city people see comes from the Great Australian Wealth Generator
Scurvy
Your post no 186 was brilliant. I must comment on a couple of things. All days are diamonds sometimes we do not see the brilliance.
You obviously live in a coastal city as you forgot to mention he Cessna 340 that carries the cattle buyers halfway across the country where they buy eight million dollars worth of cattle, and fly home the following day,right across the country. Or the cherokee six that takes the architect and two engineers 150 nm out of town to a site where they are supervising construction of a small community, or the piper lance that goes 350 nm out of town to pick up a man who has serious dental problems, and has taken a file to his own teeth. The Lance flies him 700 km to the nearest dentist. Or the C210 that flies the mail and fresh bread and toyota parts out to many cattle stations. Or the Chieftain and Baron that flies teachers, medical staff community residents and freight to cummunities up to 700 nm away, and come back the following day. Or the Lance that flies electricians 300nm out to a community, where they fix lots of electrical problems and shut off power to a steel framed house that was live,(240 volts) and arcing to the fence. (they would have to fly back another day to fix that one) And all the while the RFDS PC 12's are busy dealing with the really urgent life threatening problems despite being uderstaffed and having to raise money from the general public to keep going.
Or the many flights out to the gold mines 300 nm away.Or the C172R that flies all day, most of the time below 500 ft agl inspecting a pipeline, and keeping oil company's insurance premiums down. And many many other flights.
There are a few 737's, mostly in the middle of the day, and some night freighters
When you talk of commercial flights, or GA flights this is confusing, as most of the flying out here IS GA, and nearly all of it IS commercial GA. Nearly all in class G airspace, and in some areas we cannot even use VHF radio as our authorities have not bothered to put in the equipment needed to talk to us They do not seem to care. They live in coastal cities..
Most city people (and that means nearly all Australians) think that aviation consists of big airlines and small aeroplanes that are used by silvertails or weekenders for fun. And within the J curve that is mostly the case. although there are a few flying schools doing useful work training pilots for overseas airlines, and a lot of small aeroplanes owned by people who are not silvertails.
But in the other 90% of the country there are lots of small COMMERCIAL aeroplanes doing all sorts of essential work. Most of them are piston powered, (and obviously not good enough for the flood of city trained airline wannabies who are flooding out bush to get a job)
The outback has been insultingly labelled the GAFA (great Australian F--- all) by some, and this attitude is all too common both within the aviation community and the regulator.(the regulators live on the coast) The gold and diamonds, uranium, zinc and lots of other things the city slickers use comes from the GAFA, and there is lots more out there still to be found and developed. It really is the great Australian wealth generator. And the people who fly around in the little aeroplanes are doing it. Our small charter operators and CPL's are an essential part of this development, providing the essential transport necessary for normal (and not so normal) things.
GA (that's a stupid term, which originated from sales people) includes much needed COMMERCIAL air services to people in 90% of Australia where the airlines cannot operate safely or economically. It is a major part of Australi's transport system which is almost invisible to city people.
All days are diamondsAnd most of the gold and diamonds the city people see comes from the Great Australian Wealth Generator
Thread Starter
Bushy, yes, “all days are diamonds.” Indeed they are.
What about heading off to Tarcoola in the C208, camping under the wing and watching those thundering trains going past. Now that is an experience. Then head up to William Creek and have a few drinks in the pub. Camp the night, go down to Arkaroola for a Ridge Top tour with Doug, then have a swim in the gorge. Up to the Dig Tree, camp under the wing again and then home. Now that is Australia.
Or what about camping beside the Warburton, just north of the Warburton Groove where it drops into Lake Eyre. I was there one night in the Jetranger, with a big fire going, when a 40 knot southerly wind came up and nearly burnt out the tent, the helicopter and the esky! That is Australia for you.
We may have differences of opinion but I’m sure we all want to see aviation in country Australia thriving again.
What about heading off to Tarcoola in the C208, camping under the wing and watching those thundering trains going past. Now that is an experience. Then head up to William Creek and have a few drinks in the pub. Camp the night, go down to Arkaroola for a Ridge Top tour with Doug, then have a swim in the gorge. Up to the Dig Tree, camp under the wing again and then home. Now that is Australia.
Or what about camping beside the Warburton, just north of the Warburton Groove where it drops into Lake Eyre. I was there one night in the Jetranger, with a big fire going, when a 40 knot southerly wind came up and nearly burnt out the tent, the helicopter and the esky! That is Australia for you.
We may have differences of opinion but I’m sure we all want to see aviation in country Australia thriving again.
I'm in one of those moods
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bushy …. Yer absolutely right about the interior …. worked at TW for 3 years, saw a lot of the bush traffic, no doubt there are many more flying invaluable services that coastal dwellers rarely see or hear about!
.
… the lack of services … OK, empirically, cost outweighed benefit (supposedly) … but with today’s technology, IMHO its time we had another look … SOON!
.
… things is …. I think enough doomsayers rhetoric and unfortunate happenstances have scared numbers of the punters away …. It would be interesting to poll the general populous about their views on travelling in what they perceive is a light aircraft!
.
….we all know that flying in most any device (that is registered in someway or another) is still a better chance statically of reaching the intended destination than most else! … a lot of the punters I suspect do not!
.
… if they knew that each and every one of you knew where the other was (and you made sure it was advertised far and wide) , it would relieve some of their anxiety? …. this enhancement will eventually make the chances of those unexpected (****e what was that) occasions a thing of the past in all classes of airspace … a minimum of automated pilot to pilot alerting (augmented with eyes) .. for remote areas where ATS are not!
…. It is too important and valuable (safety wise) across all types of operations not to fund it in the national interest … isn’t it?
.
I see your point re the term GA …. should your sector be referred to as Non-Scheduled RPT or Light Commercial or some other (as long as calling you something else does not invite bean counters to charge you for other things
)?
.
… so what do we do folks? …. can we get our collective industry ‘****e in one pile’ and get this happening?
.
.. what do you think Dick, Blogg’s, Ozbus, gaunty, bushy et al …. is it possible?
.
.. and for the record, I have not lived within 35nm (as the crow flies) of the coastline for 12 years!
.
Dog
.
P.S. Dick, .. when I read your last, I got this hilarious scene in my mind of you running around the camp fire in yer drawers, yodelling expletives, swatting out hot embers with your feet 
…. nothing mischievous about it I might add 
… just very very funny …. Glad you, the tent and the Jet’y were OK! 
.
… the lack of services … OK, empirically, cost outweighed benefit (supposedly) … but with today’s technology, IMHO its time we had another look … SOON!
.
… things is …. I think enough doomsayers rhetoric and unfortunate happenstances have scared numbers of the punters away …. It would be interesting to poll the general populous about their views on travelling in what they perceive is a light aircraft!
.
….we all know that flying in most any device (that is registered in someway or another) is still a better chance statically of reaching the intended destination than most else! … a lot of the punters I suspect do not!
.
… if they knew that each and every one of you knew where the other was (and you made sure it was advertised far and wide) , it would relieve some of their anxiety? …. this enhancement will eventually make the chances of those unexpected (****e what was that) occasions a thing of the past in all classes of airspace … a minimum of automated pilot to pilot alerting (augmented with eyes) .. for remote areas where ATS are not!
…. It is too important and valuable (safety wise) across all types of operations not to fund it in the national interest … isn’t it?
.
I see your point re the term GA …. should your sector be referred to as Non-Scheduled RPT or Light Commercial or some other (as long as calling you something else does not invite bean counters to charge you for other things
)?.
… so what do we do folks? …. can we get our collective industry ‘****e in one pile’ and get this happening?
.
.. what do you think Dick, Blogg’s, Ozbus, gaunty, bushy et al …. is it possible?
.
.. and for the record, I have not lived within 35nm (as the crow flies) of the coastline for 12 years!
.
Dog
.
P.S. Dick, .. when I read your last, I got this hilarious scene in my mind of you running around the camp fire in yer drawers, yodelling expletives, swatting out hot embers with your feet
…. nothing mischievous about it I might add … just very very funny …. Glad you, the tent and the Jet’y were OK!
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Dick
You probably have a better understanding of Outback Australia than many of the coastal dwellers who post on here.
I remember taking railway engine drivers to Tarcoola, and we taxied across the golf course into town. There was often a brilliant display of Sturt desert pea flowers there. Another time I landed there with police on board to catch someone who had shot an opal buyer in Coober pedy, and was heading south.
I made many trips to William Creek. One time I remember taking people from Anna Creek to Quilpie, for a wedding (Two loads) and bringing them back two days later. I refuelled at Innaminka each time, and brought back a carton of beer for the friendly refueller. While at Quilpie I dropped some hay bales to some cattle that were marooned on an island. The area was flooded.
I flew to Arkaroola a few times, and went to a little strip at four mile creek lots of times during the developement of the Beverly uranium mine. (I also did the surveying there)
I never camped near the Warburton groove, but saw it many times when coming back from Melbourne, or Adelaide. I was fascinated by the bright red salt water algae in the lake. I
understand your fire story. One summer I was out in the Tanami desert (kookaburra country) with a 400 hp Fletcher, and a group of geologists. We camped in swags, and the Fletcher landed in the spinifex. The geologists used to go out across the desert in Toyota land cruisers and on motorbikes, using a pocket compass, and their odometer to navigate. I had to fire up the Fletcher and go to look for them sometimes, when they called in on radio saying they were lost.
One day two of them were happily driving along in there landcruiser, not realising that it was picking up spinifex which was accumulating against the exhaust pipe, and soon
it was on fire. They poured water on it, until they realised that water was all they had to keep them alive. They shovelled sand but could not stop it. It burnt their Toyota, and the battery and radio too. But we had a SAR system, and the trusty Fletcher arrived before last light to take them back to camp. One way or another the Tanami desert scared the daylights out of each one of us. We should not have been out there in mid summer. One night I got little sleep, as we were surrouded by spinifex fires.
Another time, I flew insurance people down to a station in South Australia where a tornado (yes those things that happen in Kansas) had gone through. There was a caravan there, but all that was left was the chassis and wheels. The rest was scattered around the plain like confetti, along with the remaains of two big polythene water tanks.. And a big trailer was moved about 30 meters. But a cessna 172 which lived outside was still sitting where it was left(not tied down).
As you say Dick that's Australia.
We must remember ALL DAYS ARE DIAMONDS. sometimes it's hard to remeber that.
But those pesky little aeroplanes are essential to life in the outback.
I remember taking railway engine drivers to Tarcoola, and we taxied across the golf course into town. There was often a brilliant display of Sturt desert pea flowers there. Another time I landed there with police on board to catch someone who had shot an opal buyer in Coober pedy, and was heading south.
I made many trips to William Creek. One time I remember taking people from Anna Creek to Quilpie, for a wedding (Two loads) and bringing them back two days later. I refuelled at Innaminka each time, and brought back a carton of beer for the friendly refueller. While at Quilpie I dropped some hay bales to some cattle that were marooned on an island. The area was flooded.
I flew to Arkaroola a few times, and went to a little strip at four mile creek lots of times during the developement of the Beverly uranium mine. (I also did the surveying there)
I never camped near the Warburton groove, but saw it many times when coming back from Melbourne, or Adelaide. I was fascinated by the bright red salt water algae in the lake. I
understand your fire story. One summer I was out in the Tanami desert (kookaburra country) with a 400 hp Fletcher, and a group of geologists. We camped in swags, and the Fletcher landed in the spinifex. The geologists used to go out across the desert in Toyota land cruisers and on motorbikes, using a pocket compass, and their odometer to navigate. I had to fire up the Fletcher and go to look for them sometimes, when they called in on radio saying they were lost.
One day two of them were happily driving along in there landcruiser, not realising that it was picking up spinifex which was accumulating against the exhaust pipe, and soon
it was on fire. They poured water on it, until they realised that water was all they had to keep them alive. They shovelled sand but could not stop it. It burnt their Toyota, and the battery and radio too. But we had a SAR system, and the trusty Fletcher arrived before last light to take them back to camp. One way or another the Tanami desert scared the daylights out of each one of us. We should not have been out there in mid summer. One night I got little sleep, as we were surrouded by spinifex fires.
Another time, I flew insurance people down to a station in South Australia where a tornado (yes those things that happen in Kansas) had gone through. There was a caravan there, but all that was left was the chassis and wheels. The rest was scattered around the plain like confetti, along with the remaains of two big polythene water tanks.. And a big trailer was moved about 30 meters. But a cessna 172 which lived outside was still sitting where it was left(not tied down).
As you say Dick that's Australia.
We must remember ALL DAYS ARE DIAMONDS. sometimes it's hard to remeber that.
But those pesky little aeroplanes are essential to life in the outback.
