Jetstar to spread like contagious disease....... :)
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Gday Pete.My old mate.Stature? well thats been long non existant in Aus aviation.Thats no secret. defensive?, only because of the terrible double standards that are obvious to all but the "chosen few". Im counting the days to my retirement,and after 38 years they are near. The shame of aviation these days is that its not the once great job it used to be. Through decades of head in the sand"im alright jack" union stances its been degraded to a unrecoverable point. Jetstar blokes are not to blame. Id argue that as the beacon of aviation in this country and the world mainliners high moral ground would be to include all QF group pilots instead of slagging from the high ground. Conditions not up to your exulted standard? perhaps a little pressure on AIPA may help. take a look at Nat Jet. No staff travel. I havent seen a debate about this ever!!!!. doesnt matter because it doesnt affect you?
Ill tell you straight up that, that was the comment from CM at the initial meeting after Impulse was aquired by QF. " We wont nor want to represent you in negotiations with the company". This was followed by the obligitary stunned silence.
My point is that for a perfect organisation that sets the standard and critisises all other players, you have to be perfect!!!
Ill mention a few places. Perth, Canberra, Darwin, Launceston,Sydney ( FMS initialisation issues) and of course the big one. QF 1.
All within the last 5 years.
No ones perfect. No one knows everything about flying. Simple.
DM
Ill tell you straight up that, that was the comment from CM at the initial meeting after Impulse was aquired by QF. " We wont nor want to represent you in negotiations with the company". This was followed by the obligitary stunned silence.
My point is that for a perfect organisation that sets the standard and critisises all other players, you have to be perfect!!!
Ill mention a few places. Perth, Canberra, Darwin, Launceston,Sydney ( FMS initialisation issues) and of course the big one. QF 1.
All within the last 5 years.
No ones perfect. No one knows everything about flying. Simple.
DM
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My point is that for a perfect organisation that sets the standard and critisises all other players, you have to be perfect
Got to laugh at the comments coming from a group with a confirmed hull loss
And remember the phrase "there but for the grace of God go I"?
There is some serious dribble on this thread from both sides, but it is as obvious as the nose on your face that the terms accepted by the JPC and their members are draconian.
This is the sad thing is that this affects all of us in Australian Aviation.
Characters like DM, who throw barbs rather than attempt to resolve and improve the situation are responsible for the quagmire we ALL find ourselves in.
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My only barb of note was highlighting the audacity of anyone who thinks making third-parties suffer in order to further their own industrial cause is a prudent or justified move. It is not and suggesting GA pilots "refuse" to apply to or accept work with Jetstar is a selfish and unrealistic policy.
Dutch roll,
Carefully re-read what I previously wrote. "Fight your own battles" is a little different to "Fight the battle on your own". Believe it or not many Jetstar pilots want an accord with AIPA and its members very badly as we can see that it may become a mutually beneficial course of action. All we're railing against is the constant bombardment of asinine chest-beating and "holier-than-thou" name-calling any QF vs JQ thread automatically turns into.
Dutch roll,
Carefully re-read what I previously wrote. "Fight your own battles" is a little different to "Fight the battle on your own". Believe it or not many Jetstar pilots want an accord with AIPA and its members very badly as we can see that it may become a mutually beneficial course of action. All we're railing against is the constant bombardment of asinine chest-beating and "holier-than-thou" name-calling any QF vs JQ thread automatically turns into.
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Pete, very dissapointed, took you 'til post 10 
Alot of responders to this load of unadultarated crap wanna watch out, drug testing is now in and alot of you are obviously smoking crack
The fact that nobody can see any wrong in a 200K+ a year pilot asking a deathtrap flying 35K a year pilot to not join Jet* ( and not be laughing their t!ts off ) raises some serious questions about the physcological well being of some posters on this forum.
But someone did come up with a good idea, something about all sticking together, black banning something ...............................how about everyone who has nothing nasty, critical or non constructive to say about Jet*, black banning these threads ??
Alot of responders to this load of unadultarated crap wanna watch out, drug testing is now in and alot of you are obviously smoking crack
The fact that nobody can see any wrong in a 200K+ a year pilot asking a deathtrap flying 35K a year pilot to not join Jet* ( and not be laughing their t!ts off ) raises some serious questions about the physcological well being of some posters on this forum.
But someone did come up with a good idea, something about all sticking together, black banning something ...............................how about everyone who has nothing nasty, critical or non constructive to say about Jet*, black banning these threads ??
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I've read it, re-read it, and re-read it again, and it still comes across as contradictory.
Anyway flyingins, you and longjohn both clearly said, "you should be trying to engage the Jetstar pilot group". I, quite clearly, agreed and am deeply disgusted at previous AIPA presidents attitudes towards Impulse pilots etc. And the Jetstar pilot representatives (NOT the line pilots), quite clearly, are not interested in such engagement.
It really is as simple as that unfortunately. When AIPA finally came to its senses mainline pilots were told we "had a seat at the table" by a certain very senior executive. The reality was that the table and chairs had already been packed away and we were led on a goose chase. The deal had already been done. Your representatives (not your line pilots) took the table and chairs away in the full knowledge of what had been said.
Your CEO has a publicly stated aim of preventing "mainline culture" (whatever that might be - I guess a good days pay for a good days work, rewards for the associated responsibility and professional requirements of the job, still one of the worlds best safety records, dunno - could be any number of things he doesn't like I suppose) from infiltrating Jetstar. Your representatives have so far been fully supportive of that aim. Like I said. Engagement? Won't be allowed to happen at the moment.
Anyway flyingins, you and longjohn both clearly said, "you should be trying to engage the Jetstar pilot group". I, quite clearly, agreed and am deeply disgusted at previous AIPA presidents attitudes towards Impulse pilots etc. And the Jetstar pilot representatives (NOT the line pilots), quite clearly, are not interested in such engagement.
It really is as simple as that unfortunately. When AIPA finally came to its senses mainline pilots were told we "had a seat at the table" by a certain very senior executive. The reality was that the table and chairs had already been packed away and we were led on a goose chase. The deal had already been done. Your representatives (not your line pilots) took the table and chairs away in the full knowledge of what had been said.
Your CEO has a publicly stated aim of preventing "mainline culture" (whatever that might be - I guess a good days pay for a good days work, rewards for the associated responsibility and professional requirements of the job, still one of the worlds best safety records, dunno - could be any number of things he doesn't like I suppose) from infiltrating Jetstar. Your representatives have so far been fully supportive of that aim. Like I said. Engagement? Won't be allowed to happen at the moment.
Last edited by DutchRoll; 6th Nov 2006 at 06:00.
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Well said Dutch Roll. That just about sums it all up. There are many dissatisfied line guys here. The last "negotiations" were a mere formality. The move for union representation is strong now as under the present situation we virtually have no representation. The need for transparency in negotiations has never been so immediate.
Id suggest that the engagement of a union is being actively discouraged by the JPC because of the effect that a real representitve group will have on Jetstar conditions. As it stands at the moment Id say that AIPA and the JPC are rowing up a long river in the same boat.These are just my opinions though.
There is a push going on right now for a union to take over proceedings. BOTH GROUPS AND THE REGIONALS HAVE BEEN SOLD SHORT BY THEIR OWN PEOPLE!!!!.
Id suggest that the engagement of a union is being actively discouraged by the JPC because of the effect that a real representitve group will have on Jetstar conditions. As it stands at the moment Id say that AIPA and the JPC are rowing up a long river in the same boat.These are just my opinions though.
There is a push going on right now for a union to take over proceedings. BOTH GROUPS AND THE REGIONALS HAVE BEEN SOLD SHORT BY THEIR OWN PEOPLE!!!!.
Sprucegoose
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Deathtrap??
If he is flying a deathtrap he is irresponsible, and should not be in the industry at all. He will probably not get the opportunity to fly for major airlines if his character is such that he consents to fly a "deathtrap".
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Well said that man.
Since 89' AIPA have been THE prominent pilots association in Australia. Even at it's zenith, the Ansett Pilots Association only had some 720 odd members, versus AIPA's 2000 odd at that time.
Yet despite it's strength AIPA has never taken any more than a passing interest in events outside of those effecting Qantas pilots directly.
In the meantime, their employer has establised Jet operations in:
Airlink
Jet Connect
Jetstar Asia
Jetstar Australia
and Express Freighters Australia
Meanwhile, in the industry Southern Australia pilots were led out and shot
Eastern pilots continue to fester and that just in the Qantas group.
When are AIPA going to wake up and realise that what happens in the GA and regionals does have an impact on them. Even the collapse of Ansett has to some extent had a negative impact on AIPA members by providing experienced pilots to assist in establishing Jetstar / Jetstar Asia and Jetconnect.
Whilst I do not think the answer lies with 200k pilots telling GA drivers what jobs they can take, maybe AIPA should adopt a 'paternal' role in helping to establish standards in GA / regionals etc.
At the end of the day, if a regional Captain were earning $110k plus in a Dash 8, would he take a $30k drop to join Jetstar?
Since 89' AIPA have been THE prominent pilots association in Australia. Even at it's zenith, the Ansett Pilots Association only had some 720 odd members, versus AIPA's 2000 odd at that time.
Yet despite it's strength AIPA has never taken any more than a passing interest in events outside of those effecting Qantas pilots directly.
In the meantime, their employer has establised Jet operations in:
Airlink
Jet Connect
Jetstar Asia
Jetstar Australia
and Express Freighters Australia
Meanwhile, in the industry Southern Australia pilots were led out and shot
Eastern pilots continue to fester and that just in the Qantas group.
When are AIPA going to wake up and realise that what happens in the GA and regionals does have an impact on them. Even the collapse of Ansett has to some extent had a negative impact on AIPA members by providing experienced pilots to assist in establishing Jetstar / Jetstar Asia and Jetconnect.
Whilst I do not think the answer lies with 200k pilots telling GA drivers what jobs they can take, maybe AIPA should adopt a 'paternal' role in helping to establish standards in GA / regionals etc.
At the end of the day, if a regional Captain were earning $110k plus in a Dash 8, would he take a $30k drop to join Jetstar?
LJ, How long has AIPA been asking for a 'grouplist and group opportunity?'
What is the plan when GD says get stuffed? Your shot at AIPA is off the mark.
Heaven forbid another group of true foreigners undercutting the Jetstar blokes JPC style.
Anyone speak Afrikaans????????????
The future is bright, the future is orange.
What is the plan when GD says get stuffed? Your shot at AIPA is off the mark.
Heaven forbid another group of true foreigners undercutting the Jetstar blokes JPC style.
Anyone speak Afrikaans????????????
The future is bright, the future is orange.
I heard the other day to overcome this problem in Japan 1* will be marketed as QANTAS/JETSTAR... a$%^holes
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So don't be so sure that JQ will fail in Japan. I'm sure JQ realise that Japan will be a tough market and I know they've taken appropriate steps to make sure it won't fail.
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The more one sees and hears about this outfit, the sillier it looks.
[QUOTE]Didn't they try that with Australian? Free food, drinks, 'Qantas Group' titles on the side, all inclusive pricing...]QUOTE]
Yes.
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Are you for real? What ding-a-ling thought up this passenger differentiation? How in hell will the Cabin Crew determine who bought his or her ticket in Japan and who bought them elsewhere? Or will 1*provide the extras FOC to anyone who remotely looks Japanese' ignoring caucasions and other ethnic punters???
The more one sees and hears about this outfit, the sillier it looks.
The more one sees and hears about this outfit, the sillier it looks.
Some of you have misinterpreted the intent of my previous post. I do not want GA pilots to help prop up QF T & C's - I want everybody to help maintain Pilot Industry Terms & Conditions. There are going to be a huge number of jobs in this region in the future so this is the right time to make a stand against the race to the bottom. If a person accepts a position with Jetstar now he is accepting these low T & C's and as we know, the majority of pilots stay with the first airline that offer them employment so in fact they are accepting a poor lifestyle for the rest of their career. By rejecting Jetstar, you still stand an excellent chance of employment with a major airline in the near future on terms and conditions that will give a lot more enjoyment throughout your working life.
The attitude of the Joyce and Dixon is that they do not want any cross contamination between QF mainline pilots and Jetstar pilots, so, if you accept a job with Jetstar, QF pilot recruiting will then never offer you a position with mainline (management would have issued directions that ensure QF does not undermine Jetstar pilot recruitment). The only way you would be able to "upgrade" would be to go to Virgin or an overseas airline.
I'm also strongly opposed to the concept of pilots having to pay for their endorsement. With the shortage of pilots about to hit it's time to say at the interviews that if the airline wants your skills then you require the ailine to fund your endorsement. If enough applicants do this then the airlines will have to change their position. ie It's time for pilots to band together and tell the airlines what T & C's we will work under.
The attitude of the Joyce and Dixon is that they do not want any cross contamination between QF mainline pilots and Jetstar pilots, so, if you accept a job with Jetstar, QF pilot recruiting will then never offer you a position with mainline (management would have issued directions that ensure QF does not undermine Jetstar pilot recruitment). The only way you would be able to "upgrade" would be to go to Virgin or an overseas airline.
I'm also strongly opposed to the concept of pilots having to pay for their endorsement. With the shortage of pilots about to hit it's time to say at the interviews that if the airline wants your skills then you require the ailine to fund your endorsement. If enough applicants do this then the airlines will have to change their position. ie It's time for pilots to band together and tell the airlines what T & C's we will work under.
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Have the J* guys and gals considered who they will turn to if, god-forbid, they need to carry out an evacuation in Japan and accidentally kill someone?
The JPC, with no IFALPA affiliation is not going to be a lot of help. The JPC, with zero experience in these sorts of matters, is not going to be a lot of help getting the pilots out the jail where they will most certainly be put.
Whatever you may think of AIPA, there is a wealth of experience in those sorts of matters there ready to be tapped for its members. Something to think about.
The JPC, with no IFALPA affiliation is not going to be a lot of help. The JPC, with zero experience in these sorts of matters, is not going to be a lot of help getting the pilots out the jail where they will most certainly be put.
Whatever you may think of AIPA, there is a wealth of experience in those sorts of matters there ready to be tapped for its members. Something to think about.
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Have the J* guys and gals considered who they will turn to if, god-forbid, they need to carry out an evacuation in Japan and accidentally kill someone?
The JPC, with no IFALPA affiliation is not going to be a lot of help. The JPC, with zero experience in these sorts of matters, is not going to be a lot of help getting the pilots out the jail where they will most certainly be put.
Whatever you may think of AIPA, there is a wealth of experience in those sorts of matters there ready to be tapped for its members. Something to think about.
The JPC, with no IFALPA affiliation is not going to be a lot of help. The JPC, with zero experience in these sorts of matters, is not going to be a lot of help getting the pilots out the jail where they will most certainly be put.
Whatever you may think of AIPA, there is a wealth of experience in those sorts of matters there ready to be tapped for its members. Something to think about.