***warning***
I'm in one of those moods
Join Date: Jan 2004
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I assume there has been a trigger/s for the bollocking and removal of a large amount of the historical thread data in this place.
.
I ask this:- Why would any participants (legitimate/spotters/goons) spend their time putting a view in this place if it is to disappear from the record? …. or is that what this is really about??
.
With that in mind:-
.
- Is there an opportunity to moderate (newbie’s and the irresponsible fringe troublemakers) before a post is visible to all?
- Is it possible to give new people a 100 post learner’s permit before they earn normal posting status?
- Is it possible to bust people back to P’s for inappropriate posts?
.
I understand that may involve more surveillance work, perhaps there are others who might be able to contribute to the moderation function and spread the load?!
.
Thing is, many of us have spent years journalising the issues including the controversial airspace debates, all of which appears to have disappeared o/nite! …. makes all of that input from us (that presumably provides income for you) seem hardly worthwhile – particularly if it meant doing it all again!
.
The issue (I assume) is moderating the destructive hull vibrations … We all understand (I hope) that to be credible whilst anonymous requires some decorum with factual and supportable comment! …. the basic rule is simple …. No Porkies!!
… individuals are entitled to a view (even satire) as long as it is founded in a ‘belief’ (oh no not that word again
) …. Deliberate misinformation is not!
.
Regarding the ‘insular aussies’ slur … without knowing what prompted you to select wide spray and blast D&G participants, I am still perplexed by the generality of your ‘loose off’.
Given the number of big issues discussed and resolved in this place, I would have thought that our participation (whether it suits your argument or not C H
) would be something you would approve of?! A public forum invites participation (we all come back to see what’s cookin’ 
), without that participation it is effectively nothing... sure there are problem children (I reflect that comment ) that need their ears pulled from time to time .. generally though Aussies and K.1.W.1’s will speak their minds both here and in person by name in a spirited and forthright manner … wouldn’t the world be a better place if people said what they actually thought rather than what they think others want them to say??
… without the ‘melting pot’ .. no one would bother! ….. and be buggered if I am ever gunna’ settle for being a facsimile of western conservatism!!
.
… ermm isn’t that what its for …. Agendas/issues??
.. from what I have seen in this place, insults are a response to a perceived wrong doing! Is it therefore wrong to express a return view in kind??
.
Geographically arranged forums are logical and user friendly as others have pointed out. To consider removing D&G (even thought there are other geographically arranged forums within, and more specific company based forums) and dissolving content into the other forums smacks of a desire (from some quarters) to rid PPRuNe of the frank and effective nature of the OZ/NZ forums.
.
If there is heat in the kitchen …. it surely means the forum is working!!!
.
I am not particularly thrilled with the prospect of trolling through other forums including POM (or POHM as the case may be
) ‘professional’ pilots subjects (containing mostly dry and boring waffle …. 
back at ya), whilst looking for relevant (to me) discussion.
In my case, unless the subject matter affects ATC, or OZ/NZ flying/pilot (as I fly privately) and related subjects, there is little point me visiting here other than for an occasional glancing giggle. Diluted forums (of any ilk) become attractive only in so far as providing a distraction from pulling ones fingernails out with pliers!
…. as for the pecking order …I wrongly assumed we were all here to participate on an equal footing for your benefit and ours!
.
That said, given your generous (although not entirely altruistic) allowance of discussion of all manner of subjects (mostly aviation related) in the OZ/NZ forums, and the fine job the Woomera have done in difficult circumstances, I feel a large degree of loyalty and support for you and the team! .. I wait and hope that commonsense wins the day!
.
If it is your desire (for whatever reason) to rid PPRuNe of the unique and robust nature of D&G in favour of the stereo typical politically correct Euro/western mould
… I fear, as do others, that the essence of D&G would be lost. Many (including most of the non-participating) readers would ‘set course’ out of here!
Sure the discussions would invariably end up elsewhere in cyberspace, but in the end what does that ‘scrambling’ achieve for you or us?
.
….. I sure as hell know who would benefit!
.
Let’s leave the insular insinuations to one side and get to the nub …. Find a fix and grow one of the best resources our industry has!
.
Regards
.
Dog
.
I ask this:- Why would any participants (legitimate/spotters/goons) spend their time putting a view in this place if it is to disappear from the record? …. or is that what this is really about??
.
With that in mind:-
.
- Is there an opportunity to moderate (newbie’s and the irresponsible fringe troublemakers) before a post is visible to all?
- Is it possible to give new people a 100 post learner’s permit before they earn normal posting status?
- Is it possible to bust people back to P’s for inappropriate posts?
.
I understand that may involve more surveillance work, perhaps there are others who might be able to contribute to the moderation function and spread the load?!
.
Thing is, many of us have spent years journalising the issues including the controversial airspace debates, all of which appears to have disappeared o/nite! …. makes all of that input from us (that presumably provides income for you) seem hardly worthwhile – particularly if it meant doing it all again!
.
The issue (I assume) is moderating the destructive hull vibrations … We all understand (I hope) that to be credible whilst anonymous requires some decorum with factual and supportable comment! …. the basic rule is simple …. No Porkies!!
… individuals are entitled to a view (even satire) as long as it is founded in a ‘belief’ (oh no not that word again
) …. Deliberate misinformation is not! .
Regarding the ‘insular aussies’ slur … without knowing what prompted you to select wide spray and blast D&G participants, I am still perplexed by the generality of your ‘loose off’.
Given the number of big issues discussed and resolved in this place, I would have thought that our participation (whether it suits your argument or not C H
) would be something you would approve of?! A public forum invites participation (we all come back to see what’s cookin’ ), without that participation it is effectively nothing... sure there are problem children (I reflect that comment ) that need their ears pulled from time to time .. generally though Aussies and K.1.W.1’s will speak their minds both here and in person by name in a spirited and forthright manner … wouldn’t the world be a better place if people said what they actually thought rather than what they think others want them to say?? … without the ‘melting pot’ .. no one would bother! ….. and be buggered if I am ever gunna’ settle for being a facsimile of western conservatism!!
.
Too many times individuals on here have tried to use this site for their own personal agendas
and been oh-so-brave insulting others when we all know that they'd never use such language or allegations if they were face to face with their target.
.
Geographically arranged forums are logical and user friendly as others have pointed out. To consider removing D&G (even thought there are other geographically arranged forums within, and more specific company based forums) and dissolving content into the other forums smacks of a desire (from some quarters) to rid PPRuNe of the frank and effective nature of the OZ/NZ forums.
.
If there is heat in the kitchen …. it surely means the forum is working!!!
.
I am not particularly thrilled with the prospect of trolling through other forums including POM (or POHM as the case may be
) ‘professional’ pilots subjects (containing mostly dry and boring waffle …. back at ya), whilst looking for relevant (to me) discussion. In my case, unless the subject matter affects ATC, or OZ/NZ flying/pilot (as I fly privately) and related subjects, there is little point me visiting here other than for an occasional glancing giggle. Diluted forums (of any ilk) become attractive only in so far as providing a distraction from pulling ones fingernails out with pliers!
…. as for the pecking order …I wrongly assumed we were all here to participate on an equal footing for your benefit and ours!
.
That said, given your generous (although not entirely altruistic) allowance of discussion of all manner of subjects (mostly aviation related) in the OZ/NZ forums, and the fine job the Woomera have done in difficult circumstances, I feel a large degree of loyalty and support for you and the team! .. I wait and hope that commonsense wins the day!
.
If it is your desire (for whatever reason) to rid PPRuNe of the unique and robust nature of D&G in favour of the stereo typical politically correct Euro/western mould
… I fear, as do others, that the essence of D&G would be lost. Many (including most of the non-participating) readers would ‘set course’ out of here!Sure the discussions would invariably end up elsewhere in cyberspace, but in the end what does that ‘scrambling’ achieve for you or us?
.
….. I sure as hell know who would benefit!
.
Let’s leave the insular insinuations to one side and get to the nub …. Find a fix and grow one of the best resources our industry has!
.
Regards
.
Dog
.. generally though Aussies and K.1.W.1’s will speak their minds both here and in person by name in a spirited and forthright manner … wouldn’t the world be a better place if people said what they actually thought rather than what they think others want them to say??
Isn't that the truth. That's one thing that I really miss living here in the USA. Nothing better to be sufficiently free that when someone screws up, you tell him/her that they screwed up and still be able to go have lunch together at the pub. I've met so many managers over here who are so verbally constipated simply because if you say the wrong thing you're likely to end up in court. That's a value that Australia MUST protect, but fromwhat I'm hearing it could be in danger of being lost. Great post there, keep it up.
aka Capt PPRuNe
Thread Starter
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Keep it coming. It all gets read. Robust discussion is one thing but too many people don't have enough brain cells to differentiate between "robust" and anything that can be used in a court of law should the target decide that "robust" has caused their reputation some harm. It isn't your backside on the line but mine and until the self anointed "I know the law but don't have a degree in it" know-it-alls get their limited mental capacity around that concept then I will still wield the big-stick which will no doubt infuriate some of you.
Then again, comments such as "...as you accuse many of those other "horrible Australians" of being guilty (of)." Please show me where in my posts I have said "horrible Australians"!!! A prime example of what I mean by making sure what you say is fact and not Muppetry which is why so many threads have had to disappear from this forum. It is not just 'Australians' (note; no mention of the word "horrible" ) who have a habit of not understanding the rules but I will admit that statistically, Antipodeans outnumber the rest of the world in their ability to offend each other to the point of threatening litigation. Obviously, the richer you are the more likely you are to actually carry out a threat or at least try and get this website shut down in the knowledge that your millions can cause enough trouble without having to actually go the whole hog.
So, some of you obviously have very high horses and ego's at stratospheric altitudes too. Far too elevated to actually understand what is written and instead choose to add your own vitriol in order to try and put emphasis where none is needed. Rather than simply trying to understand that there are limits on what can and can't be written on here, robust or not, perhaps you should try and understand that if you don't have the intelligence to limit what you want to argue about then PPRuNe isn't going to be your protective coat of anonymity.
Then again, comments such as "...as you accuse many of those other "horrible Australians" of being guilty (of)." Please show me where in my posts I have said "horrible Australians"!!! A prime example of what I mean by making sure what you say is fact and not Muppetry which is why so many threads have had to disappear from this forum. It is not just 'Australians' (note; no mention of the word "horrible"
) who have a habit of not understanding the rules but I will admit that statistically, Antipodeans outnumber the rest of the world in their ability to offend each other to the point of threatening litigation. Obviously, the richer you are the more likely you are to actually carry out a threat or at least try and get this website shut down in the knowledge that your millions can cause enough trouble without having to actually go the whole hog.So, some of you obviously have very high horses and ego's at stratospheric altitudes too. Far too elevated to actually understand what is written and instead choose to add your own vitriol in order to try and put emphasis where none is needed. Rather than simply trying to understand that there are limits on what can and can't be written on here, robust or not, perhaps you should try and understand that if you don't have the intelligence to limit what you want to argue about then PPRuNe isn't going to be your protective coat of anonymity.
Danny,
I have been watching this thread with interest after initially having been stunned by your first post. I participate in a few other internet forums and yes, they do not carry on like Prune does at times. On the other hand, the subjects are completely different. They don't concern my line of work, nor do the participants have common bosses, politicians, manipulators of politicians (XXX), challenges and other things that stir passions in pilots.
I see your issues with D&G as two-fold: firstly, that Dununder does not deserve to be a "catchbasket" for all things Ozzie professional aviation and two, the quality of the posts.
As has been said previously, and it's a sentiment I support, we have a fairly small (in the big scheme of things) aviation "scene" here and to split the threads up into the other forums on Prune just doesn't seem fair. After all, I have looked at a few, take the airports forum for example, and one thread there has more posts than all of the "current" D&G threads combined!
I don't know how you decide when to "split" up a Forum, but please leave D&G as it was: it is great, convenient a one-stop shop for us and the best way to keep track of what is going on here in Oz. This would also be beneficial for the mods, because the pommie mods of the Airlines forum (who probably wouldn't know Skywest, let alone any litigous posts) are much less likely to understand the local nuances of a Ozzie airline thread. Most of the D&G mods know the local identities and can much more easily spot a rogue post/poster than a pom mod.
On the second point, D&G (and any other internet forum for that matter) is only as good as it's mods. It's like a Check and Training organisation: of course there are going to be rednecks and ratbags in any group; it's up to the mods to sort them out. I therefore sheet home a lot of the blame for the state of D&G to the moderators ("ban Bloggs" incoming?!). I personally believe they could come down a lot harder on the morons we have here.
Once again, thanks for a great website for airing and ideas and....reading rumours. The cleaning lady is now so old it makes me cringe talking to her. I'd much rather get it from here!
I have been watching this thread with interest after initially having been stunned by your first post. I participate in a few other internet forums and yes, they do not carry on like Prune does at times. On the other hand, the subjects are completely different. They don't concern my line of work, nor do the participants have common bosses, politicians, manipulators of politicians (XXX), challenges and other things that stir passions in pilots.
I see your issues with D&G as two-fold: firstly, that Dununder does not deserve to be a "catchbasket" for all things Ozzie professional aviation and two, the quality of the posts.
As has been said previously, and it's a sentiment I support, we have a fairly small (in the big scheme of things) aviation "scene" here and to split the threads up into the other forums on Prune just doesn't seem fair. After all, I have looked at a few, take the airports forum for example, and one thread there has more posts than all of the "current" D&G threads combined!
I don't know how you decide when to "split" up a Forum, but please leave D&G as it was: it is great, convenient a one-stop shop for us and the best way to keep track of what is going on here in Oz. This would also be beneficial for the mods, because the pommie mods of the Airlines forum (who probably wouldn't know Skywest, let alone any litigous posts) are much less likely to understand the local nuances of a Ozzie airline thread. Most of the D&G mods know the local identities and can much more easily spot a rogue post/poster than a pom mod.On the second point, D&G (and any other internet forum for that matter) is only as good as it's mods. It's like a Check and Training organisation: of course there are going to be rednecks and ratbags in any group; it's up to the mods to sort them out. I therefore sheet home a lot of the blame for the state of D&G to the moderators ("ban Bloggs" incoming?!). I personally believe they could come down a lot harder on the morons we have here.
Once again, thanks for a great website for airing and ideas and....reading rumours. The cleaning lady is now so old it makes me cringe talking to her. I'd much rather get it from here!
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Danny
It seems to me that if you have a problem with the quality of the posts you should address most of your voluble outbursts at the MODERATORS.
I have nothing against them personally and understand they do a great service to you and the community here (pprune in total) on a voluntary basis with little appreciation. I appreciate there efforts. Nevertheless that is surely where the direction of the site is maintained. Posters will soon get the hint if standards are set.
It seems to me that if you have a problem with the quality of the posts you should address most of your voluble outbursts at the MODERATORS.
I have nothing against them personally and understand they do a great service to you and the community here (pprune in total) on a voluntary basis with little appreciation. I appreciate there efforts. Nevertheless that is surely where the direction of the site is maintained. Posters will soon get the hint if standards are set.
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Hi Danny,
Your advertising page lists the following:
Wouldn't this be why Dunnunda gets it's own forum? Wouldn't you be promoting the fact that Australia, a country with less than 7% of the US population gets just as many views? You'd have to assume you have almost a monopoly on Aviation related net traffic in this country. Sounds like a marketing opportunity to me. If anything shouldn't you consider what has made this area of your site so popular and try extend that to other areas rather than smacking our naughty bottoms. I would suspect Australia has the highest number of site views per capita than any other nation?
I guess I'm a little confused why you'd tell advertisers your site offers to meet regional advertiser's needs yet you appear to be chasing us out of our regional forum? I would doubt many people would specifically request advertising in the "Air routes" forum?? Of course I'm happy to be corrected. As you'd be aware - ever company advertising wishes to hit the target audience.
and
Wouldn't this explain the amount of non Professional Pilot related posting? Again you are telling advertisers they can target these people yet on the other hand are telling the posting community "This is a professional pilot site" which I imagine would make non-Professional pilots believe that they are not welcome.
Doesn't having a unique "catch all" area for postings by Australians lend itself to advertising opportunities?
I think your last post sums it up best. You are worried about libel. Certainly that has gone on a little.
Some of the most contentious topics generate the most traffic. These topics in Australia at the moment seem to be related to management type issues. Perhaps encouraging "robust" debate in these areas is the way to go in order to offer Australian advertsers a large number of "site views" by the target audience (Australians!). Albiet not at the expense of opening yourself up to litigation
Your advertising page lists the following:
65% of PPRuNe readers are from Europe, while North America and Australia are tied for second place at around 13% (each) of the daily views. PPRuNe provides enough global readership to accommodate almost any regional advertiser's needs.
I guess I'm a little confused why you'd tell advertisers your site offers to meet regional advertiser's needs yet you appear to be chasing us out of our regional forum? I would doubt many people would specifically request advertising in the "Air routes" forum?? Of course I'm happy to be corrected. As you'd be aware - ever company advertising wishes to hit the target audience.
and
57% of our readers are Professionals (either doctors, lawyers, pilots, CEO's, or high ranking executives). We also have a large Technical/Engineering readership and a large percentage of university students. (Demographics Chart #1)
Doesn't having a unique "catch all" area for postings by Australians lend itself to advertising opportunities?
I think your last post sums it up best. You are worried about libel. Certainly that has gone on a little.
Some of the most contentious topics generate the most traffic. These topics in Australia at the moment seem to be related to management type issues. Perhaps encouraging "robust" debate in these areas is the way to go in order to offer Australian advertsers a large number of "site views" by the target audience (Australians!). Albiet not at the expense of opening yourself up to litigation
Last edited by Pass-A-Frozo; 15th Sep 2006 at 13:49.
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Yo Danny
Hi Danny,
Firstly, thanks for creating PPRUNE. There are many pretenders to the throne in aviation forums but none pulls it together in quite the way PPRUNE does. Its strength is actually its strength. Nowhere else, that I've been able to find anyway, has the reach that this site does.
As far as D&G is concerned I must support the position that the ability to shop for local issues in one place is invaluable. Whilst I can see that airing our little issues in the bigger forums specific to an issue type (airports etc) gives us a broader reach than we get in D&G in terms of people who might have the answers, invariably that portion of the D&G community that wear the expat badge refer us to other relevant threads. Sure it's lazy but it has been working.
The legal matter is something only you can deal with. Let conscience be your guide but I'd hate to see what has been a fantastic ride over the past few years end with a whimper.
OK Back to creating mischief and mayhem
DNC
Firstly, thanks for creating PPRUNE. There are many pretenders to the throne in aviation forums but none pulls it together in quite the way PPRUNE does. Its strength is actually its strength. Nowhere else, that I've been able to find anyway, has the reach that this site does.
As far as D&G is concerned I must support the position that the ability to shop for local issues in one place is invaluable. Whilst I can see that airing our little issues in the bigger forums specific to an issue type (airports etc) gives us a broader reach than we get in D&G in terms of people who might have the answers, invariably that portion of the D&G community that wear the expat badge refer us to other relevant threads. Sure it's lazy but it has been working.
The legal matter is something only you can deal with. Let conscience be your guide but I'd hate to see what has been a fantastic ride over the past few years end with a whimper.
OK Back to creating mischief and mayhem
DNC
I'm in one of those moods
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Clearly define the rules/limits!!
.
Regarding the legal stuff:-
.
If people choose to participate they must accept (as part of membership) responsibility for their musings.
As part of that mutual agreement is a requirement that if a member (or viewer) feels aggrieved by content, they must bring it to the attention of moderators (at the time) explaining the basis on which they feel it should be edited or removed! ….
.
Entry conditions must be spelt out as a two way street …. dummy spits after the fact would then be largely innocuous and nigh on impossible to use to damage the BB and Mods! …
.
.. a sore looser (no matter who they are or how much money they have) should not be able to carve up public record with impunity …. Therefore, if they want to try …. be confident that PPRuNe has acted responsibly (through member rules) and let em’ go their hardest!
.
... If threats against you and PPRuNe are seen to have effect, resulting in removal of historical data, it will only encourage more of the same behaviour!
... to that end, I ask that the previous history be reviewed and restored so that a clear message is sent to those who might try!
.
Re: the forum layout
.
May I humbly put the following for consideration:-
.
Perhaps the effectiveness of PPRuNe as a whole could be enhanced by compartmentalising into sub groups that do not differentiate between industry levels, rather divide forums by sector groups i.e.
.
- Global forums (anything that has global significance) … much the same as is now available
- Region specific forums (anything that does not have global significance)
.
The format within each forum group might be something like:-
.
Dunnunda & Godzone (OZ and NZ) … a thick skin and seat belts required!
- On the wire (news, rumours and views) …threads relocated after 14 days inactive
- Technical (hands-on operational) … plying the trades!
- Industrial (workforce issues/opportunities/information) … no naked flames!
- Commercial (business issues/information) … tie required!
- Political (undercurrents and policies) …the Pollie waffle!
- The Cock Pit (keyboards at ten paces) …if you don’t like heat? .. Stay Out!
- The Vault (hall of fame) …thread entry by member nomination and poll!
.
More sub forums, Less Main forums!
.
You might also consider the positioning of private/company forums within the regional groups. This might promote greater member participation as well as greater interest from groups and associations to have PPRuNe host their private forums. The benefit is of course being co-located with ready access to the open forums in their regions!
.
Also;
.
At the bottom of the forum pages (near the members on-line bit)
.
- In the Sin Bin (those of us doin’ time)
.
... and somewhere else on the site
.
- Banned (those shown the door permanently)
.
This would provide a visual reminder to members and visitors that the PPRuNe team will act if the need arises!
.
Perhaps the ten thingies might need to be morphed into the 12 commandments?!!?
.
… thoughts??
.
Regarding the legal stuff:-
.
If people choose to participate they must accept (as part of membership) responsibility for their musings.
As part of that mutual agreement is a requirement that if a member (or viewer) feels aggrieved by content, they must bring it to the attention of moderators (at the time) explaining the basis on which they feel it should be edited or removed! ….
.
Entry conditions must be spelt out as a two way street …. dummy spits after the fact would then be largely innocuous and nigh on impossible to use to damage the BB and Mods! …
.
.. a sore looser (no matter who they are or how much money they have) should not be able to carve up public record with impunity …. Therefore, if they want to try …. be confident that PPRuNe has acted responsibly (through member rules) and let em’ go their hardest!
.
... If threats against you and PPRuNe are seen to have effect, resulting in removal of historical data, it will only encourage more of the same behaviour!
... to that end, I ask that the previous history be reviewed and restored so that a clear message is sent to those who might try!
.
Re: the forum layout
.
May I humbly put the following for consideration:-
.
Perhaps the effectiveness of PPRuNe as a whole could be enhanced by compartmentalising into sub groups that do not differentiate between industry levels, rather divide forums by sector groups i.e.
.
- Global forums (anything that has global significance) … much the same as is now available
- Region specific forums (anything that does not have global significance)
.
The format within each forum group might be something like:-
.
Dunnunda & Godzone (OZ and NZ) … a thick skin and seat belts required!
- On the wire (news, rumours and views) …threads relocated after 14 days inactive
- Technical (hands-on operational) … plying the trades!
- Industrial (workforce issues/opportunities/information) … no naked flames!
- Commercial (business issues/information) … tie required!
- Political (undercurrents and policies) …the Pollie waffle!
- The Cock Pit (keyboards at ten paces) …if you don’t like heat? .. Stay Out!
- The Vault (hall of fame) …thread entry by member nomination and poll!
.
More sub forums, Less Main forums!
.
You might also consider the positioning of private/company forums within the regional groups. This might promote greater member participation as well as greater interest from groups and associations to have PPRuNe host their private forums. The benefit is of course being co-located with ready access to the open forums in their regions!
.
Also;
.
At the bottom of the forum pages (near the members on-line bit)
.
- In the Sin Bin (those of us doin’ time)
.
... and somewhere else on the site
.
- Banned (those shown the door permanently)
.
This would provide a visual reminder to members and visitors that the PPRuNe team will act if the need arises!
.
Perhaps the ten thingies might need to be morphed into the 12 commandments?!!?
.
… thoughts??
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change the title ... change the content
"D & G Reporting Points Airline and RPT issues in Australia and enZed."
Seems rather broad to me.
I can therefore understand why regular contributors to the wide range of (generally informative) topics in this forum may be forgiven for not realising that this forum was in fact specifically intended for professional pilots only.
Seems rather broad to me.
I can therefore understand why regular contributors to the wide range of (generally informative) topics in this forum may be forgiven for not realising that this forum was in fact specifically intended for professional pilots only.
Last edited by resboy; 16th Sep 2006 at 15:47.
I'm in one of those moods
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resboy
.
quite right ..... so the question is
.
Do Danny and the body of Professional Pilots (for whom this site was originally provided) want the other parts of the Aviation industry to join, listen, learn and participate ... or just stick to Professional Pilots talking about Airline and RPT issues and the rest go elsewhere??
.
.. would have thought it a no brainer?
.
quite right ..... so the question is
.
Do Danny and the body of Professional Pilots (for whom this site was originally provided) want the other parts of the Aviation industry to join, listen, learn and participate ... or just stick to Professional Pilots talking about Airline and RPT issues and the rest go elsewhere??
.
.. would have thought it a no brainer?
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Please show me where in my posts I have said "horrible Australians"!!! A prime example of what I mean by making sure what you say is fact and not Muppetry...
par?a?phrase
- noun
1.
a restatement of a text or passage giving the meaning in another form, as for clearness; rewording.
2.
the act or process of restating or rewording.
As written earlier, Danny, your opening posts were what lead me to PARAPHRASING that choice of descriptive words.
Generally, we Aussies are noted for our sense of 'fair play', and I took exception to the couple of 'bitch slaps' posted by YOUR moderators, at a time when I was prohibited from responding.
Posted by PPRuNe’s moderators beneath my contribution:
You abviously missed out on the lesson plan marked conflict spiral too...so let me to introduce you to the CRM (Cretin Reactive Moderating) version of a bitch slap.
As for the litigation argument you put forward, you and I are both fully aware that something such as that is almost entirely unenforceable, for many reasons.
1) The conditions under which the forum is operated indicate that the owner(s) of the website are not responsible for the content.
All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of PPRuNe Forums, nor Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.
2) When registering on PPRuNe, there is nothing to indicate that a poster can NOT post potentially litigious comments
By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise in violation of any laws.
3) Where would the proceedings take place? You reside in the U.K., your host is in the U.S. and the comments might come from one of any number of countries. Indeed it WOULD take someone with a spare million or two to even bother commencing proceedings.
Imo, the arguments you have put forward are bluff and bluster to pander to your own sentiments.
One of the "problems" I have had with PPRuNe for a few years now, is the INCONSISTENCY of the moderation, not only from one forum to another, but ESPECIALLY within the D & G arena.
Of course there has also been a maturing of the original audience - I kicked off here (as Kapitan M) back in 1997 - and since then, another generation has come up through the ranks. Hence there has been a transition during which there has also been a change in mindset.
BUT...that is no excuse for the INCONSISTENCY OF THE MODERATION.
There was a particular period in time (1989) following which there was heated debate here between both sides.
Full credit to the moderators of that era, a FAIR hearing from BOTH sides - warts and all - was permitted to run.
Today on PPRuNe, I find YOUR moderators are apparently able to influence discussion by editing, and/or deleting posts THEY find don't fall into line with THEIR own personal thinking.
Hence a poster finds that that which is acceptable on one day, is totally UNacceptable the next.
What most people are looking for, imo is a fair and equal voice for each party, devoid of over-excessive interference from the mods.
If you want to have a Danny Fyne Rules O.K. Forum, then perhaps it's time to set one up, and limit membership to like-minded persons.
I thought you had set PPRuNe up as a PUBLIC Forum - but perhaps I was mistaken.
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Definitions
The "airline and rpt" pilots only make up about half of Australia's civilian professional pilots.
We are getting back to the "mine's bigger than yours" argument.
"General Aviation" is considered to be all non scheduled civil aviation, services. Many, many professional pilots are engaged in it, and make their living from it, in all sorts of aircraft.
GA is not just private flying.
.
Australia has about 10,000 non airline, civil aircraft.
Commercial aviation is civil aviation that involves commercial transactions, and involves professional pilots. The airlines do not have a monopoly on that.
Many small aeroplanes flown by professional pilots, operate under an air operators certificate,with SOP'sand carry out commercial flying.
Private flying is a different thing altogether and should be defined as private flying, not just GA.
This, I believe is one way that we ARE different from Europe and the UK. I agree that there are too many mythical "unique Australian" supposed differences, but there ARE some real ones.
I agree with Danny, that there is a whole lot of rubbish on here, and much improvement is needed. Professional pilots are required to have communication skills, and a degree of civility and self control. Sometimes this is lacking on here; and it is not always the "non professional" who
offends.
Thank you Danny, for providing this very important
forum. It is more valuable than many people realise.
We are getting back to the "mine's bigger than yours" argument.
"General Aviation" is considered to be all non scheduled civil aviation, services. Many, many professional pilots are engaged in it, and make their living from it, in all sorts of aircraft.
GA is not just private flying.
.
Australia has about 10,000 non airline, civil aircraft.
Commercial aviation is civil aviation that involves commercial transactions, and involves professional pilots. The airlines do not have a monopoly on that.
Many small aeroplanes flown by professional pilots, operate under an air operators certificate,with SOP'sand carry out commercial flying.
Private flying is a different thing altogether and should be defined as private flying, not just GA.
This, I believe is one way that we ARE different from Europe and the UK. I agree that there are too many mythical "unique Australian" supposed differences, but there ARE some real ones.
I agree with Danny, that there is a whole lot of rubbish on here, and much improvement is needed. Professional pilots are required to have communication skills, and a degree of civility and self control. Sometimes this is lacking on here; and it is not always the "non professional" who
offends.
Thank you Danny, for providing this very important
forum. It is more valuable than many people realise.
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Another 'significant distinction' between D & G pilots, and European pilots, is that most of us 'did time' in G.A. in Oz, as opposed to going directly into RPT ops.
In this area, I know Danny to be the exception to the rule - having served his apprenticeship with 'Fraggle Rock' Airways.
Whether this makes one a better 'all-round' pilot is probably a point for future discussion.
But it is likely that this 'doing it from the ground up/serving your apprenticeship' is a factor in explaining WHY Australians and Kiwis are so positively protective of their positions, once gained.
In D & G professional aviation, NOTHING is (usually) lightly gained, and hence the adage, "Lightly gained is lightly valued" is highly respected by those who have put in the hard yards to ACHIEVE what they have.
In this area, I know Danny to be the exception to the rule - having served his apprenticeship with 'Fraggle Rock' Airways.
Whether this makes one a better 'all-round' pilot is probably a point for future discussion.
But it is likely that this 'doing it from the ground up/serving your apprenticeship' is a factor in explaining WHY Australians and Kiwis are so positively protective of their positions, once gained.
In D & G professional aviation, NOTHING is (usually) lightly gained, and hence the adage, "Lightly gained is lightly valued" is highly respected by those who have put in the hard yards to ACHIEVE what they have.
Danny,
I have to agree with the sentiment of the last few posts; I strongly recommend the suggestions regarding forum (or is that fora??) layout suggested by Scurvy in post 69 above. It would be a dramatic improvement to your site.
I have to agree with the sentiment of the last few posts; I strongly recommend the suggestions regarding forum (or is that fora??) layout suggested by Scurvy in post 69 above. It would be a dramatic improvement to your site.
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Legal problems or just paranoia?
I for one am curious as to how many actual legal actions or threats of legal action have been launched against pprune as a response to stuff that has been published in some random D&G thread anyway................
Anyone care to take a guess or reveal some true figures on that?
Anyone care to take a guess or reveal some true figures on that?
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Yup I think SDD has a good idea.
Charlie I dissagree that the moding has been biassed or inconsistant...what has happened over the years is a tightening of the controls on just how much sledging is allowed...D&G used to be the wild west in this regard and that has got way out of control at times. It seems to me some of the younger generation feel less restraint on how stridently they express their feelings than those of us who enjoyed the 'good old days' As you pointed out it seems generational...in 'the good old days' the unsuccessful in our industry had nowhere to vent and that has been one downside to pprune.
In the good old days we were a lot more insular..we just didn't have the access to information that the internet has provided...that is a hugely double edged sword...vast information leads to difficulty in gleaning fact from fiction...and the vast amounts of fact and fiction leads to increased stress in general. I find myself watching very much less TV in recent times because constant bad news (i.e for some inexplicable reason it is deemed 'Good' TV) stresses me...actually it just gives me the irrates because I know it is mostly BS.
I think this may be one reason why posters get carried away from time to time...society is generally more stressed.
You make comparison with 89 debate in Pprune (when it was allowed ) and suggest it was even handed....I would suggest 1/. we were allowed to get away with more in those days, 2/. It wasn't quite as open slather as you remember and 3/. all 89 debate on pprune was 7-10 yrs after the event so most posters had some perspective and had calmed down somewhat....I shudder to think of the moderating task if 89 happened last week and the threads were running now...it would make the QF/J* threads seem like afternoon nap time in kindergarten.
All the mods are human and we all have full time jobs...if we are occassionally not on top of our game when moding that is just tough...if we differ in what one mod deems ok when another doesn't that is just life...as far as I am aware there hasn't been a automod invented yet...until one is you'll just have to cope with us occassionally spitting the dummy after the 87th post we have had to moderate because some twit can't argue a point without sounding like a 4 year old being dragged out of the lolly section at Woolworths.
Yes finding out who someone is in real life is difficult (VERY) if they really want to be annonymous but that fact does not make Danny, or individual moderators, immune....we are not annonymous and apparently a potential legitimate target
Pprune is too important to risk it being shut down by (an) allegedly dissaffected individual(s) with deep pockets. The Law is often not about justice or right and wrong it is about money...those who have vast amounts often win when they really shouldn't have....remember OJ?
Charlie I dissagree that the moding has been biassed or inconsistant...what has happened over the years is a tightening of the controls on just how much sledging is allowed...D&G used to be the wild west in this regard and that has got way out of control at times. It seems to me some of the younger generation feel less restraint on how stridently they express their feelings than those of us who enjoyed the 'good old days'
As you pointed out it seems generational...in 'the good old days' the unsuccessful in our industry had nowhere to vent and that has been one downside to pprune. In the good old days we were a lot more insular..we just didn't have the access to information that the internet has provided...that is a hugely double edged sword...vast information leads to difficulty in gleaning fact from fiction...and the vast amounts of fact and fiction leads to increased stress in general. I find myself watching very much less TV in recent times because constant bad news (i.e for some inexplicable reason it is deemed 'Good' TV) stresses me...actually it just gives me the irrates because I know it is mostly BS.
I think this may be one reason why posters get carried away from time to time...society is generally more stressed.
You make comparison with 89 debate in Pprune (when it was allowed
) and suggest it was even handed....I would suggest 1/. we were allowed to get away with more in those days, 2/. It wasn't quite as open slather as you remember and 3/. all 89 debate on pprune was 7-10 yrs after the event so most posters had some perspective and had calmed down somewhat....I shudder to think of the moderating task if 89 happened last week and the threads were running now...it would make the QF/J* threads seem like afternoon nap time in kindergarten. All the mods are human and we all have full time jobs...if we are occassionally not on top of our game when moding that is just tough...if we differ in what one mod deems ok when another doesn't that is just life...as far as I am aware there hasn't been a automod invented yet...until one is you'll just have to cope with us occassionally spitting the dummy after the 87th post we have had to moderate because some twit can't argue a point without sounding like a 4 year old being dragged out of the lolly section at Woolworths.
Yes finding out who someone is in real life is difficult (VERY) if they really want to be annonymous but that fact does not make Danny, or individual moderators, immune....we are not annonymous and apparently a potential legitimate target
Pprune is too important to risk it being shut down by (an) allegedly dissaffected individual(s)
with deep pockets. The Law is often not about justice or right and wrong it is about money...those who have vast amounts often win when they really shouldn't have....remember OJ?
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Quite right
That is quite right Brian. Professional pilots earn their living in all sorts of aircraft, from Piper cubs upwards. (WA fire spotters), doing all sorts of different tasks.
It is very wrong to consider that professional piolts, and commercial flying only occur in big aeroplanes.
It is very wrong to consider that professional piolts, and commercial flying only occur in big aeroplanes.
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Is it just me or was Danny's post one of the few (if not the first) that actually united 99% of Dunnunda's posting crowd. (albiet against his implied "destroy the forum")
Where is that Men-At-Work song when you need it?? Yeah-yeah!
Oh.. and Woomera, or Much-Ado or who ever.. why not sticky it again.. I dare say this thread still "as relevent today.... as it was the day it was spoken"
Where is that Men-At-Work song when you need it??
Yeah-yeah!Oh.. and Woomera, or Much-Ado or who ever.. why not sticky it again.. I dare say this thread still "as relevent today.... as it was the day it was spoken"