Jetstar Pilot Council Snubs AIPA

[Point0Five]

Where does Jetstar fly for $1000 a ticket?

You've obviously put some effort into making your calculations, can you please provide a breakdown of your assumptions to reach the conclusion of 1% (passenger numbers, salary, ticket prices etc.)

[B A Lert]

REALLY?

Originally Posted by [I

Enema Bandit's Dad].....Have a look at how many passengers an A330 holds then do the sums to see how many of them would be paying for the pilots wages, maybe three of them at $1000 per ticket? That's roughly 1% of the load.[/I]

Some of you blokes have no idea about airline economics and it's clear that your understanding extends no deeper or further than the quantum of the bottom line of your next pay slip. As well as a pilots salary, there are many items known as on-costs and these include matters such as
- payroll tax
- holiday pay
- long service leave
- employers contribution to superannuation (which in the case of many Qantas Mainline pilots is way in excess of not only the Govt decreed 9% but also general community standards)
- sick leave
- training costs
- uniforms
- accommodation, allowances and ground transport
and so the list goes on...and on....and on.

Next to fuel, crew costs are one the highest component of an airlines direct operating costs. That said, why wouldn't any responsible and prudent management do all it can to minimise them? There's not a lot it can do about fuel costs and government charges (en route and landing fees) but a company can have some control over the variable charges. Just ask anyone in a senior financial role at any airline, and don't forget that a dollar that is unspent goes straight to the bottom line and either increases the profit or minimises the loss.

[OhSpareMe]

OK. So 5 passengers pay for the TEch Crew. Next.

[kdf155]

OH DEAR!!!!!!

If i were GD i would be laughing.
If he can buy out the ex head of A.I.P.A and make him the Chief pilot of Qantas, what makes you so sure the same ego boosting offers are not on the table for the Impulse pilots council to get a good deal through for QF.This method has worked for many other companies outside aviation namely B.H.P and Rio Tinto.People have a price, especially pilots.

A divide between A.I.P.A and the IPC plays right into the hands of management and they ARE aware of the divide.

Who gets the flying in the long term is not as important as the conditions agreed upon.I pray that Jet* pilots think with their heads and vote down a ****ty deal.The QF group need Jet* guys on board.Jet * pilots have the leverage in this round.They dont want QF pilots. Qf pilots only got the Australian Airlines jobs at good money because they had a great A.I.P.A leader.So effective infact that he was appointed C.P by dixon himself.

Unity is required in both camps to look after everyones interest.Australia is not getting any cheaper to live in.Dont let management "sell down" the importance of your role as an airline pilot. Most of the public are S@#$ scared of flying.
It's time we united and looked after everybody.Otherwise, sadly, we all face a race to the bottom.

[Transition Layer]

I've been trying to "play the ball and not the man" this last few days and this is the best I can come up with.

The JQ pilots really need to sit back and have a breather for a second and take it all in. Things have come a long way in the past 5 years but unfortunately their pay hasn't.

It was not all that long ago these blokes were flying a 1900D up and down the NSW coast, no autopilot and no flightie to bring the coffee. Next thing they'll be flying an A330 on international ops with 270 odd punters down the back.

The question that needs to be asked, has their pay gone up appropriately? Measly pay rises to go 1900->717->320. The A330 will be carry an extra 50% of the pax load on top of the A320, flying internationally in all sorts of conditions.

Good on em for such a meteoric rise and before any of you have a dig at me, I'm not criticising experience levels (I'm hardly in a position to do that!). That's not my beef and I don't think it's true anyway. All I am saying is that I fear in about a years time some of them will say: "It all happened so quickly, I'm worth more than this!!!"

The time to realise that is now!

TL

[Woomera]

And you succeeded admirably...hot heads take note...it IS possible to make your point without slandering good people...and the J* crews are good people just making their way in the world.

[Datum]

A DIFFERENT perspective can provide a valuable insight

I agree Transition Layer....

If I was a JETSTAR PILOT I would be looking at my situation in the broadest possible sense...

I would be attempting to remain cognisant and acutely aware of the possibility of hidden agendas. Therefore, I would source information from as many RELIABLE sources as I could. AIPA and QF Mainline Pilots could be a source of information....albeit to provide a different perspective to the JPC and other JETSTAR Pilots...I would then sit down with my closest mates / family (not just Aviation related either) over a few beers and talk it out. They may also provide a different perspective...

WHY - Because my single VOTE will effect my working conditions, lifestyle and general level of happiness as long as I remain a JETSTAR Pilot... Further, this VOTE will effect the Terms and Conditions under which many other pilots will be employed in the future. They too, like me - will have worked very hard to initially get a job with JETSTAR...they will have paid for all their training prior to joining - to then be told they will need to fork out AGAIN - for another endorsement....to then realise their salary will not even allow them to do that adequately....

I would consider very carefully whether the Terms and Conditions proposed in this 'Agreement' will attract the calibre of pilot I would wish to be my part of my crew when things are not going so well (ie: critical emergency over foreign country in poor weather).....Moreover, will JETSTAR be a happy, motivating and fun place to work given the conditions proposed...will my mates (especially the junior guys) have enough money to enjoy a slip now and then?

I just urge all JETSTAR Pilots - Please consider this issue very carefully. Be open minded enough to listen to what others have to say. Finally, unlike management - try to avoid making your final decision with only yourself and your back pocket in mind! Good Luck.

[Capt Claret]

And if I was a Jet* pilot I'd be so sick and tired of the condecension directed at the group and being told what to do by people looking at their interests and not mine, that I'd be inclined to say stuff you all and take what I think I can get.

[Transition Layer]

stuff you all and take what I think I can get

Which is exactly what you and your colleagues at NJS did a little while back, eh Capt?

TL

[Tankengine]

OK, here we go : I apologise in advance for over simplification - I am only a Pilot!
Many people commenting on a bad pay/condition contract on offer,
some commenting on lack of unity - there is another way!

In 1992 the integration of A/Q pilots was bloodless due to the "Y" seniority list plus future aircraft allocations by % of "type of flying"

I propose that AIPA and Jetstar pilots [and why not Eastern and NJ while we are at it!] get together in the spirit of the "Y" and create a "TREE" list!

Jetstar and mainline maintain seniority on current types and combine on future types [B787] on a % of mainline/jetstar flying. [ie : if 25% of 787s go Jetstar then 25% of slots go to J* pilots]

All current pay and conditions confirmed, future aircraft p/c @ Qantas longhaul award. [no diff in pay for pilots on an aircraft type]

Future Jetstar domestic rates by negotiation between management and pilots with the full backing of mainline.

Companies told "sorry, this is just the way it is - if you want to bring in OS labour then your looking at >3000!!!!"

It worked in 92, why not now?

[hotnhigh]

Great idea tank but the company wont allow it to work. Secondly, I'm sorry but what will Jetstar pilots lose if it's a no vote. If the current management speak of another pilot group being available, well lets bring it on. Lets see... A330 guys for an 18 month contract, and then what.... pay for their endorsements for the 787's. C'mon.
I confess to being biased in this thread as I'm junior mainline. I have also worked with current jetstar pilots with overseas airlines. These blokes have flown with similar operations that Jetstar Int ops will be. I trust they are warning of all the dangers incorporated into the current agreement.
Will the current Jetstar command upgrades disappear with a no vote? Via the current MOU don't you have an opportunity to move to mainline if you want? A yes vote simply puts more than a few nails in the coffin of the mainline conditions that you could have access to.
And just to re iterate... the far, far majority of mainline pilots want this to be successful for the Jetstar pilot group. You control the destiny of future T&C for the entire QF group.

[Angle of Attack]

As Capt Claret said there is so much vitriol being directed at the J* pilots, this should really stop. It is fair to voice your opinion on the patheticness or otherwise of the deal being offered. (Yes I think it is woeful) but its a bit rich when the mainliner's voted up a moronic EBA7, especially with many justifying a yes vote on the principle that "It will show our co-operation and flexibility for a look in at the J* flying! ) haha what a joke that was! The management succeded in intimidating the mainline group who had no duress or potential of job loss at all at that time, and now your saying the J* guys and girl should reject theirs? Come on it's a bit rich. And no Im not a J* employee, the sooner mainline starts refusing to extend tours of duty completely the better. Im sure there is a spine somewhere is there? I havent seen any so far.. I know lots of J* and lots of mainliners and with a few exceptions they are all good people, lets remember our common values.... and dreams.

[Going Boeing]

Ryan Air and Easy Jet are two long established LCC's based in Europe who pay their pilots very well (and work them accordingly). The argument made by "aircraft" that Jetstar is not in a position to pay its pilots more is simply BS. Pilot costs are a miniscule part of the cost of operating commercial aircraft.

[Capn Bloggs]

Oh we are touchy aren't we, TL?

At all times the negotiations between Jetstar management and the Jetstar Pilot Council were cordial and constructive.

What? No blood on the table? No yelling, no screaming down the phone at the boss? You guys aren't trying!

Seriously, forget those QF jokers. For the sake of the rest of the industry (such as the 1900, D8, Brasilia drivers like some of you were a just few short years ago), please vote NO. We need you to keep the Ts and C half reasonable.

[avion345]

ONE INTERESTING THING WITH ALL LOW COST AIRLINES, JQ INCLUDED, IS
THE CONSTANT DEMAND FROM THE LCC MANAGMENT FOR EVRY ONE IN THEIR AIRLINE TO ACCEPT LOWER WAGES AND CONDITIONS, WHILST THERE DOESNT SEEM TO BE ANY DROP IN MANAGEMENT PAY AND CONDITIONS!!

IT SEEMS LCC MEANS LOWER WAGES FOR EVERYONE "EXCEPT" THE MANAGEMENT!

[Rostov]

In actual fact Joyce's pay packet is much lower than Dixon's. They are both CEO's.
The A320 fleet manager is on about 60k less than his QF 737 equivilant.
In fact I think you will find most of the managers are on less money than their equivilant. Yes, I was surprised to find that out aswell.

[Alien Sex God]

Please, for the sake of us out in there in GA striving for airlines, vote no. We don't need GA terms and conditions for the rest of our careers.

[Baxter Dewall]

Capt Bloggs,

From an outsider looking in, do you think that whatever the outcome of the Jet* vote, that will have flow on effects to the regional ops ie D8, Braz, saab, etc. Those guys/girls are already lowly paid mate, half of nothing is nothing!!!!!!!!!!

History has prooved that pilots in particular don't give a rats about anybody else but themselves. The origins of this start with the sprog CPL holder who says "I'll fly your C210 for nothing because I need the hours"
What is happening here is just a much more advanced version.

Here endeth the lesson!!

[Trylandher2]

Can you imagine any other industry advertising vacancies at 100K less than market rates. But here in pilot land we are lining up in droves!
Remember you are not just signing up for yourselves but for the future of all future and present crews in other airlines and GA alike.

[aircraft]

You just don't get it

You guys just don't get it.

Like all other businesses, the salaries of pilots are determined by the economic (market) conditions. Because the economic conditions fluctuate, but the salaries are much more rigid, there are times when the two are out of balance. At these times, pressure will come on (seemingly all by itself) to restore the balance. Like how the fin on your aircraft acts for example!

In fact, given the rigidity of pilot's salaries and the current imbalance between salaries and economic conditions (not just in airlines but in many areas of GA), you can expect that future terms and conditions will have remuneration levels that are much more flexible. A good manager would make this a goal when negotiating EBAs.

Capt Bloggs said:

From an outsider looking in, do you think that whatever the outcome of the Jet* vote, that will have flow on effects to the regional ops ie D8, Braz, saab, etc. Those guys/girls are already lowly paid mate, half of nothing is nothing!!!!!!!!!!

Capt Bloggs, the salaries of the pilots to which you refer have already been set by the economic conditions. When those salary levels next change, it will be as a result of a change in the economic conditions - not by anything to do with Jetstar. They are not in any way affected by salaries at Qantas or Jetstar! It may appear at times that there is a connection between airline and GA salaries but in reality it is the economic conditions that are common to both.

Aliex Sex God said:

Please, for the sake of us out in there in GA striving for airlines, vote no. We don't need GA terms and conditions for the rest of our careers.

ASG, you seem to think that Jetstar is capable of paying the pilots what you think is a good salary. Do you think that money grows on trees? As a low cost carrier, just where do Jetstar get the money to be able to do that?

Rostov said:

The A320 fleet manager is on about 60k less than his QF 737 equivilant.

Very good point. This helps to illustrate the different economics between LCC and traditional carrier. Here is a tip: whatever that percentage works out to, you can apply to QF pilot salaries with the result being what the Jetstar pilots can reasonably expect.