Jetstar Pilot Council Snubs AIPA
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404 ,CORRECT.
all before delted(psuedo managers) are doing their best to drive a wedge between the various pilot bodies. Ladies and gents, don't get sucked in by their garbage. Stick together and drive the bargain as hard as you can. Most would not realise how far the respective companies can and will go to secure the deal. They have a lot more room to manouvre than they will ever let on. That is the fact. They can and will pay you the right money, but you absolutely MUST bargain aggressively. Keep your pilot council on their toes and never take anything for granted.
DON'T LET PARASITE MANAGERS RUIN YOU LIFE! LET THEM KNOW WE ARE JUST A LITTLE SMART (well the last 5 words are accurate
Ethereal Woomera
all before delted(psuedo managers) are doing their best to drive a wedge between the various pilot bodies. Ladies and gents, don't get sucked in by their garbage. Stick together and drive the bargain as hard as you can. Most would not realise how far the respective companies can and will go to secure the deal. They have a lot more room to manouvre than they will ever let on. That is the fact. They can and will pay you the right money, but you absolutely MUST bargain aggressively. Keep your pilot council on their toes and never take anything for granted.
DON'T LET PARASITE MANAGERS RUIN YOU LIFE! LET THEM KNOW WE ARE JUST A LITTLE SMART (well the last 5 words are accurate
Ethereal Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 1st Mar 2006 at 12:16.
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Titan,
Couldn't agree more. Managers and Green Eyed monsters most likely.
The new I.R. Laws are not the market. They are a guideline for Industrial relations going forward till the next election, subject to change and constant scrutiny.
The Market is the Market, full stop. What is the market paying on average for an Airline Pilot in Australia. That is why there are terms like below Market Salaries and above Market Salaries. It is not the lowest price that someone can pay someone to do the job. That is a management tool used to attempt to mislead.
Do not fear the new I.R. Laws. The consequences of an employer cancelling a Certified Agreement and trying on the scenario illustrated by Jaded Boiler would be disasterous for an Airline like Qantas. I would even go as far as to say it would destroy the company and cost the careers of all (Dixon etc).
I would make the point to Qantas Pilots again.
You must negotiate to secure your futures. This does not mean pay cuts. This means getting rid of outdated work practices and increasing productivity. It does not mean accepting the bare bones offered to Jetstar. They have nothing to negotiate with as their Certified Agreement has no flesh on the bones. They will fight for years to fatten it up. In the meantime all Qantas Pilots have to do is take a little bit of Weight Watchers to theirs and look for efficiencies.
A 5% improvement on a $500m payroll is a $25m annual improvement to Qantas' bottom line. Jetstar Pilots would have to work for free to provide that sort of saving. Think about it and get proactive in driving change. After all, it's YOUR FUTURE.
There is a fantastic old saying that goes
"I worried my whole life about things that might happen, and some of them actually did!"
You are in control of the agenda, don't lose it and stop worrying about what might happen. Make it happen on your terms!
Couldn't agree more. Managers and Green Eyed monsters most likely.
The new I.R. Laws are not the market. They are a guideline for Industrial relations going forward till the next election, subject to change and constant scrutiny.
The Market is the Market, full stop. What is the market paying on average for an Airline Pilot in Australia. That is why there are terms like below Market Salaries and above Market Salaries. It is not the lowest price that someone can pay someone to do the job. That is a management tool used to attempt to mislead.
Do not fear the new I.R. Laws. The consequences of an employer cancelling a Certified Agreement and trying on the scenario illustrated by Jaded Boiler would be disasterous for an Airline like Qantas. I would even go as far as to say it would destroy the company and cost the careers of all (Dixon etc).
I would make the point to Qantas Pilots again.
You must negotiate to secure your futures. This does not mean pay cuts. This means getting rid of outdated work practices and increasing productivity. It does not mean accepting the bare bones offered to Jetstar. They have nothing to negotiate with as their Certified Agreement has no flesh on the bones. They will fight for years to fatten it up. In the meantime all Qantas Pilots have to do is take a little bit of Weight Watchers to theirs and look for efficiencies.
A 5% improvement on a $500m payroll is a $25m annual improvement to Qantas' bottom line. Jetstar Pilots would have to work for free to provide that sort of saving. Think about it and get proactive in driving change. After all, it's YOUR FUTURE.
There is a fantastic old saying that goes
"I worried my whole life about things that might happen, and some of them actually did!"
You are in control of the agenda, don't lose it and stop worrying about what might happen. Make it happen on your terms!
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agent mulder the market is not Australia but the world. QF will only be happy when they pay the lowest wages in the world and even then they be looking to see if anyone will do it for less.
In many industries employers are importing asian boilermakers,welders etc for short term contracts because there is a "skills shortage"
There is no such thing as a "skill shortage" just a "pay shortage" were skilled people will not work for peanuts.
You should be scared of the new IR laws because if you will not work for the deal that is offered the employers will scour the world for someone who will. There are a hell of a lot of people worse off than a pilot in Australia and as such that means there are a lot of people who would do your job for less.
Don't get me wrong,I'm on your side. Just don't be complacent about the enormity of the changes that are engulfing the aviation market.
In many industries employers are importing asian boilermakers,welders etc for short term contracts because there is a "skills shortage"
There is no such thing as a "skill shortage" just a "pay shortage" were skilled people will not work for peanuts.
You should be scared of the new IR laws because if you will not work for the deal that is offered the employers will scour the world for someone who will. There are a hell of a lot of people worse off than a pilot in Australia and as such that means there are a lot of people who would do your job for less.
Don't get me wrong,I'm on your side. Just don't be complacent about the enormity of the changes that are engulfing the aviation market.
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forgotten someone
talk it up what about eastern/qantas link they have tried in vane for years to join mainline but to no avail as precious mainline didnt want to risk bid seniority.but come a pay freeze their included under the qf banner. if anyone has a right to whinge its them .all i hope is eastern pilot action group gets off the ground and gives you all a run for your money.
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I can't remember the exact details but Eastern were offered slots in mainline a number of years ago but the AFAP challenged it and lost resulting in the subsequent withdrawal of those slots.
You Jetstar pilots should realise that you fly excellent equipment and deserve to be renumerated more. Don't sell yourselves out. Remember, if management can pay themselves what they do, they should pay you a damn site better.
You Jetstar pilots should realise that you fly excellent equipment and deserve to be renumerated more. Don't sell yourselves out. Remember, if management can pay themselves what they do, they should pay you a damn site better.
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Mulder, AIPA has made it very clear to QF management that they are willing to look at productivity increases. The problem is the door is tightly shut. J* management do not give a toss about mainline. What is beneficial to the entire QF group is not what J* are interested in. J* look after J* fullstop. If only Dixon and Co. could see this.
I recall a recent QF statement "Jetstar is our main priority". If I were a shreholder, a frequent flyer, a QF employee, or even just a believer in an Australian Icon - I would be very worried. QF seem more than willing to sacrifice QF for J*; for nothing more than short term gain. The problem is that J* is so price sensitive, about all it can compete on is price. That is a BIG gamble for QF. J* was meant to be a defensive ploy, to keep others out and it is very good at doing that. But, it should be strictly controlled and limited.
Anyone that thinks J* operating Avalon - Perth is not draining QF Melbourne - Perth, is crazy. Where to with J* Int? QF mainline will likely contract to SYD, SIN, LHR, LAX, SFO, HKG. Want to use those FF points to fly QF business ADL-LHR; the first part of your journey will be J* Int ECONOMY. Want to use FF points to go to a holiday destination - fly J* only. FF's will leave in droves. It goes on and on.
Anyway, back to the present. J* pilots will vote as they choose. However, the should seriously look at uniting with AIPA, regardless of the vote. They may be a minority for a short while, but they will gather power and have available significant resources that will definately be required in the future. Just look at the QF shorthaul guys - a minority group that has number 2 slot on the A330 and every one of them has a command - not bad really.
I recall a recent QF statement "Jetstar is our main priority". If I were a shreholder, a frequent flyer, a QF employee, or even just a believer in an Australian Icon - I would be very worried. QF seem more than willing to sacrifice QF for J*; for nothing more than short term gain. The problem is that J* is so price sensitive, about all it can compete on is price. That is a BIG gamble for QF. J* was meant to be a defensive ploy, to keep others out and it is very good at doing that. But, it should be strictly controlled and limited.
Anyone that thinks J* operating Avalon - Perth is not draining QF Melbourne - Perth, is crazy. Where to with J* Int? QF mainline will likely contract to SYD, SIN, LHR, LAX, SFO, HKG. Want to use those FF points to fly QF business ADL-LHR; the first part of your journey will be J* Int ECONOMY. Want to use FF points to go to a holiday destination - fly J* only. FF's will leave in droves. It goes on and on.
Anyway, back to the present. J* pilots will vote as they choose. However, the should seriously look at uniting with AIPA, regardless of the vote. They may be a minority for a short while, but they will gather power and have available significant resources that will definately be required in the future. Just look at the QF shorthaul guys - a minority group that has number 2 slot on the A330 and every one of them has a command - not bad really.
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Guys
Once you agree to fly these new fancy jets for nothing, have been away from home too often because your conditions are s@#t, fed crap food and treated like an un-glorified bus driver, and then decide to apply for Dragon because atleast you get paid a decent salary that means you can feed a family of three and send them to descent schools, it will all be too late, think long and hard about the bigger picture guys, because once you fall into their trap, it's all over and it's not coming back.
These new IR rules are designed for self serving, splintered and fractional idiots like we all are, and you mark my words, whilst we are fractionalised like this we will continue to be played off against each other until oneday when your child says "Dad I want to become a pilot", our response will be, "Son, I can't afford it, your better off becoming a lock smith!
It's all over in this country, and the sooner we all realise this and start to band together, our professionalism and conditons will become so pathetic that not only will our management laugh at us, but so will the public.
Start looking overseas guys, because the Down Under and God Zone has become the Down on Your Knees and D@#K H@#D Zone.
Once you agree to fly these new fancy jets for nothing, have been away from home too often because your conditions are s@#t, fed crap food and treated like an un-glorified bus driver, and then decide to apply for Dragon because atleast you get paid a decent salary that means you can feed a family of three and send them to descent schools, it will all be too late, think long and hard about the bigger picture guys, because once you fall into their trap, it's all over and it's not coming back.
These new IR rules are designed for self serving, splintered and fractional idiots like we all are, and you mark my words, whilst we are fractionalised like this we will continue to be played off against each other until oneday when your child says "Dad I want to become a pilot", our response will be, "Son, I can't afford it, your better off becoming a lock smith!
It's all over in this country, and the sooner we all realise this and start to band together, our professionalism and conditons will become so pathetic that not only will our management laugh at us, but so will the public.
Start looking overseas guys, because the Down Under and God Zone has become the Down on Your Knees and D@#K H@#D Zone.
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Yeah!...I'm afraid that deeds is correct, as much as I hate to admit it.
Oz has become a third world country with a fifth world aviation system!
But, hey! You lot were "agin" the 89ers so you get what you deserve!!!
Learn to live with it!
Oz has become a third world country with a fifth world aviation system!
But, hey! You lot were "agin" the 89ers so you get what you deserve!!!
Learn to live with it!
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This is why a new representative body is needed to look after us all. In short we need to be saved from ourselves because time and time again we fall prey to the fear and intimidation tactics utilised by management. When we have fellow pilots negotiating EBAs there is a lot of pressure to not lose the opportunity to crew new routes/aircraft etc and the dark side know this and use our fears against us. Good Luck to us all about to vote on EBA conditions.
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I nearly fell off my chair when reading the letter from Rick above.
Did he also hand out blinkers to all the J* pilots?
J* pilots, can you see what's going on here????
I think the rest of the world can!
He is heading into management faster than a B787 if he gets this deal through the pilots.
He (and maybe the rest of the JPC) will NOT be the ones on this deal for long, and will NOT be the ones flying the line on these crap T & C's.
J* pilots, THROW AWAY those blinkers - DONT put them on.
The future of being a pilot as a decent profession for current pilots, and ALL FUTURE pilots in Australia is in your hands.
Please think carefully before voting on any such deal.
BB.
Very close to the bone Capt...I have left it as stands but knock off the vitriol...unless ya want 4 days too?
Did he also hand out blinkers to all the J* pilots?
J* pilots, can you see what's going on here????
I think the rest of the world can!
He is heading into management faster than a B787 if he gets this deal through the pilots.
He (and maybe the rest of the JPC) will NOT be the ones on this deal for long, and will NOT be the ones flying the line on these crap T & C's.
J* pilots, THROW AWAY those blinkers - DONT put them on.
The future of being a pilot as a decent profession for current pilots, and ALL FUTURE pilots in Australia is in your hands.
Please think carefully before voting on any such deal.
BB.
Very close to the bone Capt...I have left it as stands but knock off the vitriol...unless ya want 4 days too?
Last edited by Woomera; 1st Mar 2006 at 12:19.
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Just for the record amos2,
I am not an 89er and this is the sort of attitude that needs to be dropped, we need solidarity and we need it now, otherwise its www.cathay.com or www.draginair.com here we come, I can hear the hallow halls of our avaition crew rooms now, I am sick of these rosters, I can't afford to buy a house in Sydney now, I never see my family (but the aero-sexuals will still love their
A330/B787/B777), this food is S@#T, when are we going to get a good bidding system, remember when we got our jeps paid for, remember when the ground staff respected us, remember when they used to ungrade us, remember when I thought this was a great way to earn a living and the F#$king list goes on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What needs to happen is we all grow some balls and shove it straight to our management, call their bluff, stick together and watch our profession, sorry Bus driver occupation begin to resemble something close to what it was and what is should be! The time is now or never, otherwise see you in HK where atleast the money resembles something consumerate to our Bus driving occupation.
I am not an 89er and this is the sort of attitude that needs to be dropped, we need solidarity and we need it now, otherwise its www.cathay.com or www.draginair.com here we come, I can hear the hallow halls of our avaition crew rooms now, I am sick of these rosters, I can't afford to buy a house in Sydney now, I never see my family (but the aero-sexuals will still love their
A330/B787/B777), this food is S@#T, when are we going to get a good bidding system, remember when we got our jeps paid for, remember when the ground staff respected us, remember when they used to ungrade us, remember when I thought this was a great way to earn a living and the F#$king list goes on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What needs to happen is we all grow some balls and shove it straight to our management, call their bluff, stick together and watch our profession, sorry Bus driver occupation begin to resemble something close to what it was and what is should be! The time is now or never, otherwise see you in HK where atleast the money resembles something consumerate to our Bus driving occupation.
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I have just spent significant time moderating this one thread...at least two 4 day bannings and several more that were very, very close.
It won't take much more in the same vien to trip my BS circuit breaker and just bin the thread.
If you want to be treated as adult professionals start acting like same.
It won't take much more in the same vien to trip my BS circuit breaker and just bin the thread.
If you want to be treated as adult professionals start acting like same.
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Sorry but had to laugh at this.
www.draginair.com here we come
followed by
I am sick of these rosters
I never see my family
this food is S@#T
when are we going to get a good bidding system
remember when the ground staff respected us
Yep, going to KA will really solve all of those problems. NOT.
www.draginair.com here we come
followed by
I am sick of these rosters
I never see my family
this food is S@#T
when are we going to get a good bidding system
remember when the ground staff respected us
Yep, going to KA will really solve all of those problems. NOT.
Has it occurred to anyone that Jetstar are only offering what they can afford to pay? Or do you think that money grows on trees and so Jetstar can afford whatever the pilots demand?
Does anyone realise that Jetstar is a "low cost carrier" and that "low cost" equates to "low revenue" which in turn means that there is not a lot of money to pay the pilots with?
Does anyone realise that Jetstar is a "low cost carrier" and that "low cost" equates to "low revenue" which in turn means that there is not a lot of money to pay the pilots with?
Nunc est bibendum
Hey woomera, given that you're handing out sin bins, is there anything in your bag of tricks about binning people for blatant, moronic and idiotic wind ups? Perhaps you need to think about that one! 
Aircraft is your first customer!
Aircraft is your first customer!
Grandpa Aerotart
I think aircraft is possibly a little closer to the mark than many would like to admit.
Jetstar is positioned in a VERY price sensitive market at present...which means it doesn't take much of a fare hike to send people back to the inter/intra state trains /coaches....that has in fact happened already in one case and they quickly lowered the fares again.
Anyone who suggests the JPC are industrially naive or not following the views of their pilot body or not seeking input from other very senior and industrially savvy pilots within J* just doesn't know WTF they are talking about...it's that simple.
Jetstar is positioned in a VERY price sensitive market at present...which means it doesn't take much of a fare hike to send people back to the inter/intra state trains /coaches....that has in fact happened already in one case and they quickly lowered the fares again.
Anyone who suggests the JPC are industrially naive or not following the views of their pilot body or not seeking input from other very senior and industrially savvy pilots within J* just doesn't know WTF they are talking about...it's that simple.
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That was another typical aircraft comment. He has no real conception on what happens out there and I assume that has something to do with his age. He's probably still squeezing pimples... But I'm digressing. Have a look at how many passengers an A330 holds then do the sums to see how many of them would be paying for the pilots wages, maybe three of them at $1000 per ticket? That's roughly 1% of the load.
But I'm digressing. Have a look at how many passengers an A330 holds then do the sums to see how many of them would be paying for the pilots wages, maybe three of them at $1000 per ticket? That's roughly 1% of the load.