Jetstar Eba
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Just skimmed through this one and three bars mate you are right onto it - nice to see at least someone knows what the hell is going on.
Im not convinced that Howard Hughes is actually a pilot. Sorry, havent read any of your other posts except what is in this thread, but I wouldnt be surprised if you were actually in management aka "the enemy" and just trying to feed some bs propaganda to the masses.
As a young pilot Im concerned about the future. I hope the AIPA CoM and others do the right thing for guys both today and down the track. My career and those of my peers depends on it.
Im not convinced that Howard Hughes is actually a pilot. Sorry, havent read any of your other posts except what is in this thread, but I wouldnt be surprised if you were actually in management aka "the enemy" and just trying to feed some bs propaganda to the masses.
As a young pilot Im concerned about the future. I hope the AIPA CoM and others do the right thing for guys both today and down the track. My career and those of my peers depends on it.
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Guys,
Sorry to break the bad news but,
The local "Garbo" driver earns more than most Pilots...
This won't change until you guys stick together instead of trying to stab each other in the back :^)
Good luck
Sorry to break the bad news but,
The local "Garbo" driver earns more than most Pilots...
This won't change until you guys stick together instead of trying to stab each other in the back :^)
Good luck
Sprucegoose
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Im not convinced that Howard Hughes is actually a pilot. Sorry, havent read any of your other posts except what is in this thread, but I wouldnt be surprised if you were actually in management aka "the enemy" and just trying to feed some bs propaganda to the masses.
May I suggest that you go back and read the post's with an open mind, then come back and tell me honestly that you don't agree with some of what I have said!! Or do you think pilots sit above high court judges in the scheme of things? Do you also think that safety is reflected in what you are paid? Come on, open your eyes, I am not trying to persuade anyone, just saying what I see. Take a look for yourself....
I think Mr Buzzy summed it up better than I when he said:
Now lets take a look at every other industry in Australia...... See the comparison???? ... Doesnt take a genius to see that things change hey?
Think we all need to go back a few pages and read BOLTY MCBOLTS very accurate assessment of our industry. Perhaps it is the fact that he is an outsider looking in, that he sees things without his Serengettis, Brietling and bloated ego getting in the way.
Ask any doctor how many hours he has to work these days and whether he or she is being payed like doctors of 20 years ago?
Think we all need to go back a few pages and read BOLTY MCBOLTS very accurate assessment of our industry. Perhaps it is the fact that he is an outsider looking in, that he sees things without his Serengettis, Brietling and bloated ego getting in the way.
Ask any doctor how many hours he has to work these days and whether he or she is being payed like doctors of 20 years ago?
Cheers, HH.
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Gnads,
It's Oldmeadow or his bint Farrough.
Time to unite as one boys and have some fun.
If all the senior managers at Qantas come from Ansett, and Ansett is no longer here, what can Qantas employees expect?
Revolution.
It's Oldmeadow or his bint Farrough.
Time to unite as one boys and have some fun.
If all the senior managers at Qantas come from Ansett, and Ansett is no longer here, what can Qantas employees expect?
Revolution.
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Howard Mate
I also doubt your bona fides. But I am intrigued. You obviously won an argument at some stage using the high court judge analogy or, you have a well thought out argument using the high court judge analogy. Go for it!
I also doubt your bona fides. But I am intrigued. You obviously won an argument at some stage using the high court judge analogy or, you have a well thought out argument using the high court judge analogy. Go for it!
Sprucegoose
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Spotlight,
I have no agenda to push, I am merely calling it as I see it, so too are three bars and Bolty! It is not an argument mate, there will be no winner or loser.
So far not one naysayer, with the exception of Three Bars has put forth any thoughts of their own. It is much easier to stand on the sidelines and shout down any contrary point of view, than to have an honest look at where this profession is currently, or where it is headed.
Most pilotage skills these days are long gone, natural ability has long been taken out of the equation, aircraft have consistently developed better and better systems to protect pilots from themselves!! Logic and reasoning are the modern prerequisites for pilots, yet sadly both are missing in some of the more topical debates on these forums.
I will pull my head in now and watch from the sidelines. As I said earlier, I have no agenda to push, I am merely passionate about the industry in which I work, but I am not so blinded by my own self importance that I cannot see what is going on around me. Take a look at other industries, the majority of which support our friends and families and the logical comparisons between the two.
Then you may in fact see what I am talking about!
Cheers, HH.
I have no agenda to push, I am merely calling it as I see it, so too are three bars and Bolty! It is not an argument mate, there will be no winner or loser.
So far not one naysayer, with the exception of Three Bars has put forth any thoughts of their own. It is much easier to stand on the sidelines and shout down any contrary point of view, than to have an honest look at where this profession is currently, or where it is headed.
Most pilotage skills these days are long gone, natural ability has long been taken out of the equation, aircraft have consistently developed better and better systems to protect pilots from themselves!! Logic and reasoning are the modern prerequisites for pilots, yet sadly both are missing in some of the more topical debates on these forums.
I will pull my head in now and watch from the sidelines. As I said earlier, I have no agenda to push, I am merely passionate about the industry in which I work, but I am not so blinded by my own self importance that I cannot see what is going on around me. Take a look at other industries, the majority of which support our friends and families and the logical comparisons between the two.
Then you may in fact see what I am talking about!
Cheers, HH.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Is it simply a co-incidence that Jet* has ex-Ansett "returnees" as the bulk of their senior captains?
Thereby providing a convenient "them and us" mentality, on a couple of fronts, in the wedge that's going to be driven into QF mainline.
You've just got to smile cynically when you read the ra-ra of "stick together", and know that Jet* management are going to be able to do whatever they WANT, with the new EBA, because none of the senior pilot group are qualified to lead by example - especially with their previous handlers - the ex-AN management - having been their masters in a previous life.
Thereby providing a convenient "them and us" mentality, on a couple of fronts, in the wedge that's going to be driven into QF mainline.
You've just got to smile cynically when you read the ra-ra of "stick together", and know that Jet* management are going to be able to do whatever they WANT, with the new EBA, because none of the senior pilot group are qualified to lead by example - especially with their previous handlers - the ex-AN management - having been their masters in a previous life.
Kaptain M
Whether 89ers or heroes/returnees, the trends set by both camps in recent years disappointing. 89ers in Virgin Blue have done very well in management positions and for the rest it's nice to be home; the cost young pilots robbed of their money paying for training and relatively poor pay.
J* returnees have little choice in some respects, the unofficial blackbanning of them in the better airlines abroad and Virgin Blue, has played into Dixon's hands. He has started an Airbus airline with the cheapest baulk Airbus labour in the world.
jakethemuss
A little cheeky don't you think? The QF role in AN's demise convincing- political lobbying of life lines and foreign & Australian governments. AN staff had a taste of QF Management expertise too- Trevor Jensen & Gary Toomey. The former worthy of a long thread!
Howard Hughes & Low Cost Friends
I did read your post but the half time siren sounded. I asked the question about QF pilot's pay to see where you were really coming from- and your response answered my question.
Your prognosis is seriously flawed because of the precedent low cost pilots have set and your acceptence of a changing industry which though undeniable, certainly fleeces the pockets of senior pilot management and above.
This original topic was how the lowest paid pilots in the region are undercutting each other- needlessly the consensus of outsiders but low cost pilots such as yourselves launch into a long justification of your present circumstances forgetting this present undercutting another serious pilot battle about to be lost!
Insiders tell me a training/checking airmen in J* on A320's makes 135K a year. Like Virgin Blue pilots at parties a few years ago, stories of 180K are bandied about- base + super + allowances + loss of licence insurance + whatever they can find to boost relative meagre earnings.
135K a year for an Airbus Check Airmen is way below world standards- look at Flight International if you please. Booming India, China, MidEast etc will further pressure the premium. Where in the world does a check airmen on Airbus make so little? You name Bhutan I will name three others in excess etc.
I never put a figure of pay on cockpit professionalism. I did put into question are professional pilots who let slide, without any pressure, conditions of service for future generations just dropping the p out of professional? J* pay for your training is robbery considering free manafacturer training credits and taxation write offs but are you doing any lobbying as professional group to stop it? etc etc
Sadly, your allright as are a cadre of Virgin Blue pilots who received quick commands in a convenient period of industry change. But a legacy now remains- normal promotiom, pay fo your training and poorer conditions.
The greatest travesty of all is low cost pilots have only ever seen themselves bettered by undercutting others. So now, subject of the thread, Jetstar, National Jet and Jetconnect, regionally and by international standards underprivileged pilots, undercutting to the bone for an unclear professional improvement.
It all goes in one side and out the other, because as an outsider looking in I see the real pattern for low cost pilots as follows. EBA's won't realise any significant conditions of improvement. What can you give up? The lesson low cost pilots have learn't is to undercut. The next big payrise for J* will be to fly the PAcific at rates of pay equating a senior QF S/O or a junior QF F/O- and won't that teach 'em!
So your prognosis of a creep of low cost pilot conditons toward that of the incumbant QF's rosey IMHO. There is no precedent or professional effort to suggest other than a further gradual deterioration in real economic terms!
Keep up the good work.
Whether 89ers or heroes/returnees, the trends set by both camps in recent years disappointing. 89ers in Virgin Blue have done very well in management positions and for the rest it's nice to be home; the cost young pilots robbed of their money paying for training and relatively poor pay.
J* returnees have little choice in some respects, the unofficial blackbanning of them in the better airlines abroad and Virgin Blue, has played into Dixon's hands. He has started an Airbus airline with the cheapest baulk Airbus labour in the world.
jakethemuss
A little cheeky don't you think? The QF role in AN's demise convincing- political lobbying of life lines and foreign & Australian governments. AN staff had a taste of QF Management expertise too- Trevor Jensen & Gary Toomey. The former worthy of a long thread!
Howard Hughes & Low Cost Friends
I did read your post but the half time siren sounded. I asked the question about QF pilot's pay to see where you were really coming from- and your response answered my question.
Your prognosis is seriously flawed because of the precedent low cost pilots have set and your acceptence of a changing industry which though undeniable, certainly fleeces the pockets of senior pilot management and above.
This original topic was how the lowest paid pilots in the region are undercutting each other- needlessly the consensus of outsiders but low cost pilots such as yourselves launch into a long justification of your present circumstances forgetting this present undercutting another serious pilot battle about to be lost!
Insiders tell me a training/checking airmen in J* on A320's makes 135K a year. Like Virgin Blue pilots at parties a few years ago, stories of 180K are bandied about- base + super + allowances + loss of licence insurance + whatever they can find to boost relative meagre earnings.
135K a year for an Airbus Check Airmen is way below world standards- look at Flight International if you please. Booming India, China, MidEast etc will further pressure the premium. Where in the world does a check airmen on Airbus make so little? You name Bhutan I will name three others in excess etc.
I never put a figure of pay on cockpit professionalism. I did put into question are professional pilots who let slide, without any pressure, conditions of service for future generations just dropping the p out of professional? J* pay for your training is robbery considering free manafacturer training credits and taxation write offs but are you doing any lobbying as professional group to stop it? etc etc
Sadly, your allright as are a cadre of Virgin Blue pilots who received quick commands in a convenient period of industry change. But a legacy now remains- normal promotiom, pay fo your training and poorer conditions.
The greatest travesty of all is low cost pilots have only ever seen themselves bettered by undercutting others. So now, subject of the thread, Jetstar, National Jet and Jetconnect, regionally and by international standards underprivileged pilots, undercutting to the bone for an unclear professional improvement.
It all goes in one side and out the other, because as an outsider looking in I see the real pattern for low cost pilots as follows. EBA's won't realise any significant conditions of improvement. What can you give up? The lesson low cost pilots have learn't is to undercut. The next big payrise for J* will be to fly the PAcific at rates of pay equating a senior QF S/O or a junior QF F/O- and won't that teach 'em!
So your prognosis of a creep of low cost pilot conditons toward that of the incumbant QF's rosey IMHO. There is no precedent or professional effort to suggest other than a further gradual deterioration in real economic terms!
Keep up the good work.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 19th Jul 2005 at 00:59.
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UR2
You made $30000 odd more than me, you must have worked a lot of overtime!!! The FO was telling me he made about $80000 less than you. I bet you think FO's should vote to take a low 60% . Remember commands finish in about 6 to 7 months time with no more aircraft coming from early next year.
You made $30000 odd more than me, you must have worked a lot of overtime!!! The FO was telling me he made about $80000 less than you. I bet you think FO's should vote to take a low 60% . Remember commands finish in about 6 to 7 months time with no more aircraft coming from early next year.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
To answer your question, Big Jan, my definition of a senior J* captain, is one who is in a check/training role in J*, and these are very predominantly ex-AN people, and specifically those previously mentioned.
These are the individuals that the other pilots - esp. the F/O's - will be looking and listening to, for leadership, and support.
As nice a country as Australia is climatically and scenically, it is hellishly savage on personal (and other) income taxes.
That's more palatable IF you are able to offset that high level of tax against other investments (eg. property), but at the modest salaries of today's Australian pilots, the prospect of ever affording anything other than your family home, is pretty bleak.
Airline pilots in Oz are now almost certainly flying more hours per month than those in any other country in the world - but your post tax salaries are lagging way BEHIND, and on an hourly rate put you amongst the cheapest.
As Gardenbug stated, "The greatest travesty of all is (Australian) low cost pilots have only ever seen themselves bettered by undercutting others.", and with that in mind why should Jet* management offer ANYTHING, other than a "Take it or leave - you're easily replaced"?
Looking at the reality of the situation, there are so many young(ish) captains in Virgin Blue and Jet*, that it's possible there is a generation of F/O's who might NEVER see a command, and will spend a lifetime on a crap salary.
But, of course, they be "flying jets in Oz"! 
These are the individuals that the other pilots - esp. the F/O's - will be looking and listening to, for leadership, and support.
As nice a country as Australia is climatically and scenically, it is hellishly savage on personal (and other) income taxes.
That's more palatable IF you are able to offset that high level of tax against other investments (eg. property), but at the modest salaries of today's Australian pilots, the prospect of ever affording anything other than your family home, is pretty bleak.
Airline pilots in Oz are now almost certainly flying more hours per month than those in any other country in the world - but your post tax salaries are lagging way BEHIND, and on an hourly rate put you amongst the cheapest.
As Gardenbug stated, "The greatest travesty of all is (Australian) low cost pilots have only ever seen themselves bettered by undercutting others.", and with that in mind why should Jet* management offer ANYTHING, other than a "Take it or leave - you're easily replaced"?
Looking at the reality of the situation, there are so many young(ish) captains in Virgin Blue and Jet*, that it's possible there is a generation of F/O's who might NEVER see a command, and will spend a lifetime on a crap salary.
But, of course, they be "flying jets in Oz"!
Especially with Kind, Understanding Nice Types like Gardenbug providing moral support, leadership and a plan of attack so that he and his industrial heavyweights can help us dig ourselves out of this mess...
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Bolty,
“Can you please provide examples of incidence where "Maintenance Errors" the cause relating to airline aircraft in Australia. This is new to me.”
The whole point I am trying to make is that although Australia has moderate weather, reasonable terrain and in some places low traffic levels, this is not the reason we have never had a fatal jet airliner accident. These factors are not significant contributors to accident rates. Human error is the main cause of accidents by far – pilot, ATC, Engineer. Once again, to that end, Australia has done exceptionally well – maintenance wise included.
Kaptin m
“Airline pilots in Oz are now almost certainly flying more hours per month than those in any other country in the world”
Interesting, I know guys in HKG and SIN who routinely log 90 plus hours per month, in some cases hitting the big 100. Some of the short haulers in Europe do the same.
Gnadenburg,
“Forgive me for the assumption, I could be wrong, but your professional masochism”
Masochism – not really sure how you arrived at that.
“that of the handle Zapata's Blood is strikingly similar.”
Has it occurred to you that there are actually many people who do not share your point of view? The majority of pilots working in Australia would take offence at your comment regarding professionalism. But if it makes you feel better pretending all dissenting opinions only belong to one person, then so be it.
“Do you have any views on the issues at hand or are you really just trolling or playing Devil's Advocate?”
I thought my views were very clear but feel free to ask me a specific question. I am new to pprune so please explain what “trolling” is.
“He has started an Airbus airline with the cheapest baulk Airbus labour in the world.”
Would you like a comprehensive list of airlines around the world that pay a hell of a lot less than Jetstar? This could get very tedious.
“Can you please provide examples of incidence where "Maintenance Errors" the cause relating to airline aircraft in Australia. This is new to me.”
The whole point I am trying to make is that although Australia has moderate weather, reasonable terrain and in some places low traffic levels, this is not the reason we have never had a fatal jet airliner accident. These factors are not significant contributors to accident rates. Human error is the main cause of accidents by far – pilot, ATC, Engineer. Once again, to that end, Australia has done exceptionally well – maintenance wise included.
Kaptin m
“Airline pilots in Oz are now almost certainly flying more hours per month than those in any other country in the world”
Interesting, I know guys in HKG and SIN who routinely log 90 plus hours per month, in some cases hitting the big 100. Some of the short haulers in Europe do the same.
Gnadenburg,
“Forgive me for the assumption, I could be wrong, but your professional masochism”
Masochism – not really sure how you arrived at that.
“that of the handle Zapata's Blood is strikingly similar.”
Has it occurred to you that there are actually many people who do not share your point of view? The majority of pilots working in Australia would take offence at your comment regarding professionalism. But if it makes you feel better pretending all dissenting opinions only belong to one person, then so be it.
“Do you have any views on the issues at hand or are you really just trolling or playing Devil's Advocate?”
I thought my views were very clear but feel free to ask me a specific question. I am new to pprune so please explain what “trolling” is.
“He has started an Airbus airline with the cheapest baulk Airbus labour in the world.”
Would you like a comprehensive list of airlines around the world that pay a hell of a lot less than Jetstar? This could get very tedious.
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"To answer your question, Big Jan, my definition of a senior J* captain, is one who is in a check/training role in J*, and these are very predominantly ex-AN people, and specifically those previously mentioned.
These are the individuals that the other pilots - esp. the F/O's - will be looking and listening to, for leadership, and support."
I think you will find that the guy's you have defined as senior Jetstar pilots had absoloutely nothing to do with negotiating the new EBA.I think you will also find that the entire training organisation of the 717 which half the company is still flying does not have any ex Ansett people in it whatsoever.This means that most people have as yet had no contact with the people that you are describing.There are already a pile of people that these other pilots and FO's have been flying with for years if they are going to be looking for leadership and or support.
Whether the Jetstar pilots accept this EBA in it's present form or not it really has nothing to do with you.As you said at the end of your post (sarcastically) "they be flying jets in OZ"
Thats right ! and it's something you will never be doing
These are the individuals that the other pilots - esp. the F/O's - will be looking and listening to, for leadership, and support."
I think you will find that the guy's you have defined as senior Jetstar pilots had absoloutely nothing to do with negotiating the new EBA.I think you will also find that the entire training organisation of the 717 which half the company is still flying does not have any ex Ansett people in it whatsoever.This means that most people have as yet had no contact with the people that you are describing.There are already a pile of people that these other pilots and FO's have been flying with for years if they are going to be looking for leadership and or support.
Whether the Jetstar pilots accept this EBA in it's present form or not it really has nothing to do with you.As you said at the end of your post (sarcastically) "they be flying jets in OZ"
Thats right ! and it's something you will never be doing
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Gnads,
Just picture this for a second. The CX management takeover of KA involves a requirement for all tech crew to accept 20% lower pay scale as the airline morphs into an LCC to compete with HKG express and a new LCC in Macau.
This may involve you upgrading to command quickly as the A330’s will be replaced by more 320’s. However, your command C scale will see you netting only marginally more than your current FO B scale pay (that you happily accepted by the way).
This is purely hypothetical as no line crews really know which direction KA will be heading in. However, such a scenario is not uncommon in the world of aviation and has occurred at airlines such as KA before.
So, what would you do in such a situation?
Also, exactly how many crews are covered by “free manafacturer training credits” when an airline such as Jetstar orders 40 plus aircraft. Is training covered for all crews or just enough to cover the first few aircraft?
And finally, you refer to booming India. An associate of mine will shortly be joining Indian Airlines where, after gaining command (only a couple of years), he will be paid the equivalent of 2500 AUD per month. How does this compare to Jetstar?
Just picture this for a second. The CX management takeover of KA involves a requirement for all tech crew to accept 20% lower pay scale as the airline morphs into an LCC to compete with HKG express and a new LCC in Macau.
This may involve you upgrading to command quickly as the A330’s will be replaced by more 320’s. However, your command C scale will see you netting only marginally more than your current FO B scale pay (that you happily accepted by the way).
This is purely hypothetical as no line crews really know which direction KA will be heading in. However, such a scenario is not uncommon in the world of aviation and has occurred at airlines such as KA before.
So, what would you do in such a situation?
Also, exactly how many crews are covered by “free manafacturer training credits” when an airline such as Jetstar orders 40 plus aircraft. Is training covered for all crews or just enough to cover the first few aircraft?
And finally, you refer to booming India. An associate of mine will shortly be joining Indian Airlines where, after gaining command (only a couple of years), he will be paid the equivalent of 2500 AUD per month. How does this compare to Jetstar?
FatEric
Rambling on there but I see you take a very similar stance to Zaptas Blood & 320321; without a comment as to why it is the way of the world or neccessary for pilots to be undercutting each other.
The fact is 135K for a Check & Trg Airmen on Airbus is below par. Couple the fact that it is now the norm for pilots to pay for their rating. The premium will increase for the above mentioned Airbus qualified because of India & China & the rest of the world having an insatiable need for their skills- your Indian friend is one of the few Airbus pilots paid lower than J*.
Back to the thread. Why is it low cost pilots in Australia deem it neccessary to undercut each other to progress?
CaptainBloggs
Hit a raw nerve it seems? Some of you have been fortunate. Industry circumstances have led to changes in Australia where low cost carriers have spawned and growth aided by the collapse of Ansett.
The first wave, quick promotion etc, have been lucky and are well positioned.
Why don't you do something? Progression through undercutting of other pilot groups can't be neccessary? Or is it just an ingrained Impulse like culture?
320321
Could you list a single airline around the world that requires you to pay for your rating and than offers 135K a year for an Airbus training captain?
The topic is: poorly paid pilots in Australia making half of what pilots made a few years ago, or, alternative view, suitably remunerated pilots by Australian standards, are undercutting each.
All the sidetracking aside, and without quantifying pay and conditions, the undercutting practice of the last few years a deleterious long term professional prospect.
Rambling on there but I see you take a very similar stance to Zaptas Blood & 320321; without a comment as to why it is the way of the world or neccessary for pilots to be undercutting each other.
The fact is 135K for a Check & Trg Airmen on Airbus is below par. Couple the fact that it is now the norm for pilots to pay for their rating. The premium will increase for the above mentioned Airbus qualified because of India & China & the rest of the world having an insatiable need for their skills- your Indian friend is one of the few Airbus pilots paid lower than J*.
Back to the thread. Why is it low cost pilots in Australia deem it neccessary to undercut each other to progress?
CaptainBloggs
Hit a raw nerve it seems? Some of you have been fortunate. Industry circumstances have led to changes in Australia where low cost carriers have spawned and growth aided by the collapse of Ansett.
The first wave, quick promotion etc, have been lucky and are well positioned.
Why don't you do something? Progression through undercutting of other pilot groups can't be neccessary? Or is it just an ingrained Impulse like culture?
320321
Could you list a single airline around the world that requires you to pay for your rating and than offers 135K a year for an Airbus training captain?
The topic is: poorly paid pilots in Australia making half of what pilots made a few years ago, or, alternative view, suitably remunerated pilots by Australian standards, are undercutting each.
All the sidetracking aside, and without quantifying pay and conditions, the undercutting practice of the last few years a deleterious long term professional prospect.