Jetstar Eba
320321
Operationally, Australia is a benign environment for airliners. Add technological advances such as TCAS & EGPWS and safety a relative no brainer.
But the safe & efficient operation of an airliner the easy part of professionalism.
There is a lack of accountability for the continual degradation and undercutting of professional piloting conditions in Australia. It is freely justified on these pages by members of the low cost pilot camp; who generally take a swipe at QF pilots in what can only be professional envy at the huge disparity of conditiond of service.
The laissez-faire attitude of large numbers of Australian airline pilots to their conditions of service could coldly be deemed unprofessional. Because if you are willing to work for considerably less and undercut other pilots professionaly, it generally manifests itself in other professional aspects- poor quality training, rostering & safety structure etc. Anecdotal evidence is overwhelming from former & serving low cost pilots of a deterioration of the above mentioned.
It is easy to fly an airliner professionally. Pilots now pay for the privilege. But pilots paying for the privilege are realising it is not so easy to uphold and improve the profession- the easiest way forward is to undercut and compromise! That is taking the P out of professional piloting in my opinion.
320321 keep up the good work.
Did you buy that rating?
Operationally, Australia is a benign environment for airliners. Add technological advances such as TCAS & EGPWS and safety a relative no brainer.
But the safe & efficient operation of an airliner the easy part of professionalism.
There is a lack of accountability for the continual degradation and undercutting of professional piloting conditions in Australia. It is freely justified on these pages by members of the low cost pilot camp; who generally take a swipe at QF pilots in what can only be professional envy at the huge disparity of conditiond of service.
The laissez-faire attitude of large numbers of Australian airline pilots to their conditions of service could coldly be deemed unprofessional. Because if you are willing to work for considerably less and undercut other pilots professionaly, it generally manifests itself in other professional aspects- poor quality training, rostering & safety structure etc. Anecdotal evidence is overwhelming from former & serving low cost pilots of a deterioration of the above mentioned.
It is easy to fly an airliner professionally. Pilots now pay for the privilege. But pilots paying for the privilege are realising it is not so easy to uphold and improve the profession- the easiest way forward is to undercut and compromise! That is taking the P out of professional piloting in my opinion.
320321 keep up the good work.
Did you buy that rating?
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 17th Jul 2005 at 02:19.
Sprucegoose
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Airline pilots' salaries in Oz, in comparison with cost of living expenses don't appear "very lucrative" when compared with salaries of pilots in other many countries, imho.
And for those who wish to chase the dollars, the opportunity is also there...
For me personally, I'm happier sleeping on a swag under the stars in Oz, than elsewhere sleeping on a mattress full of money whilst always dreaming of Oz!!
Cheers, HH.
Howard Hughes
There is little accountability in your post. If conditions have halved in real terms over the last five years, where will the next five years take professional piloting in Australia?
A good percentage of low cost pilots today will become the working poor ie: having to fly 900 hours a year, eating cold sandwiches and paying for a Coke, well into their 60's to fund retirement.
On the other hand there will be a percentage of professional pilots well positioned. .
There is little accountability in your post. If conditions have halved in real terms over the last five years, where will the next five years take professional piloting in Australia?
A good percentage of low cost pilots today will become the working poor ie: having to fly 900 hours a year, eating cold sandwiches and paying for a Coke, well into their 60's to fund retirement.
On the other hand there will be a percentage of professional pilots well positioned. .
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“There is a lack of accountability for the continual degradation and undercutting of professional piloting conditions in Australia”
Perhaps you should make an appeal to the “market forces are being nasty to me” police. Who on earth are you expecting to be accountable for the natural evolution in market forces? God, perhaps.
“The laissez-faire attitude of large numbers of Australian airline pilots to their conditions of service could coldly be deemed unprofessional”
And so they should adopt your set of values and abandon their own?
“Because if you are willing to work for considerably less and undercut other pilots professionaly, it generally manifests itself in other professional aspects- poor quality training, rostering & safety structure etc.”
So you are suggesting that high salaries are responsible for good rostering, training and safety culture? Interesting how accident reports from airlines such as KA, AN and QF specifically referred to poor crew training being important factors.
Tinpis,
“Nice weather ...low traffic...flat as a ****-carters hat.”
True, but most airliner accidents that occur are not related to wx/terrain/traffic level. Maintainance errors are now becoming more common and human error, particularly amongst pilots, is the most common. To that end, Australia is doing something right.
Kaptin,
“pilots in Viet Nam, India, and China, are on MUCH higher salaries than most Australian airline pilots, but have MUCH lower cost of living expenses, leaving a vastly higher final disposable amount.”
SOME expats in these countries are paid more than SOME pilots in Australia are. The majority of pilots in China and India are paid considerably less than the majority of pilots in Australia.
Perhaps you should make an appeal to the “market forces are being nasty to me” police. Who on earth are you expecting to be accountable for the natural evolution in market forces? God, perhaps.
“The laissez-faire attitude of large numbers of Australian airline pilots to their conditions of service could coldly be deemed unprofessional”
And so they should adopt your set of values and abandon their own?
“Because if you are willing to work for considerably less and undercut other pilots professionaly, it generally manifests itself in other professional aspects- poor quality training, rostering & safety structure etc.”
So you are suggesting that high salaries are responsible for good rostering, training and safety culture? Interesting how accident reports from airlines such as KA, AN and QF specifically referred to poor crew training being important factors.
Tinpis,
“Nice weather ...low traffic...flat as a ****-carters hat.”
True, but most airliner accidents that occur are not related to wx/terrain/traffic level. Maintainance errors are now becoming more common and human error, particularly amongst pilots, is the most common. To that end, Australia is doing something right.
Kaptin,
“pilots in Viet Nam, India, and China, are on MUCH higher salaries than most Australian airline pilots, but have MUCH lower cost of living expenses, leaving a vastly higher final disposable amount.”
SOME expats in these countries are paid more than SOME pilots in Australia are. The majority of pilots in China and India are paid considerably less than the majority of pilots in Australia.
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From an outsiders perspective i.e. Not a pilot.
This whole debate seems to miss a very important point.
Supply and demand.
As have been mentioned on many other threads .eg
Lockhart River accident..
Why you should pay for your endorsement!..
There is an over supply of pilots and rightly or wrongly the CEOs and managers of our employers are taking advantage of this = low pay for the new guys. I can't see the point of vilifying some employees of one or two airlines for the state of current affairs and wages.
Didn’t Godfrey sweet talk his (captains) pilots when staring up VB to take the lower pay for the early years to get the airline off the ground only to go back on his word a few years later when these same pilots asked for their reward (pay rise) for doing their bit, VB pilots told " i can replace you in a new york minute due to the plethora of pilots banging on his door.
Even if the above is pure rumour its a fine example of how over crowded your vocation has become and how reducing the costs of running an airline are being acheived by our managers
320321
"True, but most airliner accidents that occur are not related to wx/terrain/traffic level. Maintenance errors are now becoming more common and human error, particularly amongst pilots, is the most common."
Can you please provide examples of incidence where "Maintenance Errors" the cause relating to airline aircraft in Australia. This is new to me.
"CASPER"
"Just heard that Jet* have placed options on ANOTHER 42 aircraft. QF Domestic - RIP! The bloodbath continues"
Have just heard Jet* asia is gone.The A320s have been canx
The the line inspectors at Airbus are coming back to Aus because of no work esxcept 3 x A330 and the 380 construction has gone back. If Jet * have ordered new aircraft there are no tech reps to supervise contsruction..
a rumour me thinks
This whole debate seems to miss a very important point.
Supply and demand.
As have been mentioned on many other threads .eg
Lockhart River accident..
Why you should pay for your endorsement!..
There is an over supply of pilots and rightly or wrongly the CEOs and managers of our employers are taking advantage of this = low pay for the new guys. I can't see the point of vilifying some employees of one or two airlines for the state of current affairs and wages.
Didn’t Godfrey sweet talk his (captains) pilots when staring up VB to take the lower pay for the early years to get the airline off the ground only to go back on his word a few years later when these same pilots asked for their reward (pay rise) for doing their bit, VB pilots told " i can replace you in a new york minute due to the plethora of pilots banging on his door.
Even if the above is pure rumour its a fine example of how over crowded your vocation has become and how reducing the costs of running an airline are being acheived by our managers
320321
"True, but most airliner accidents that occur are not related to wx/terrain/traffic level. Maintenance errors are now becoming more common and human error, particularly amongst pilots, is the most common."
Can you please provide examples of incidence where "Maintenance Errors" the cause relating to airline aircraft in Australia. This is new to me.
"CASPER"
"Just heard that Jet* have placed options on ANOTHER 42 aircraft. QF Domestic - RIP! The bloodbath continues"
Have just heard Jet* asia is gone.The A320s have been canx
The the line inspectors at Airbus are coming back to Aus because of no work esxcept 3 x A330 and the 380 construction has gone back. If Jet * have ordered new aircraft there are no tech reps to supervise contsruction..
a rumour me thinks
BAe146,
Righto smarty pants. You tell me how much the NJS pilots were making when the Airlink contract started, and how much they would have been making had the scabs NOT taken over AN and TN, in other words had the two airline awards been allowed to continue on.
Bloggs, gotta tell you old pal, gnadenberg , is spot on. AFAP were representing GA at that time and Seymour knew it. No other airline work around at the time, so take it or leave it.
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Gnadenburg,
My comments were not intended to be a commentary on working conditions in Australia. They were merely an expression of my personal preference to live in Australia, along with the inference that whilst I prefer that scenario, others can, and do choose a different path.
I don't know where the dollars equals professionalism attitude comes from, but let me tell you the two are not co-dependant.
I will concede that airlines in a better financial situation do have available better safety resources, but it then becomes a management responsibility as to how these resources are allocated. To use the prevelant example, ie:Qantas v Jetstar, I expect both companies would have available very similar resources as well as expertise, as they are owned by the same company!!
Now to the BIG question of MONEY.
Cast aside all your preconceived ideas and think about this question.
Could you possibly entertain the thought that in the past pilot's were perhaps overpaid?
Now this is a heavily quantified question, but if you can even slightly contemplate the thought, then perhaps what is occuring in Australia is a correction of pilot salaries to a more sustainable level. My personal opinion is that's exactly what has happened, both here and overseas and that conditions will soon see improvement to a more sustainable level, given the changing aviation marketplace.
In the past pilots were paid as much as high court judges, whilst no less important, I certainly do not believe that my position is worth (in dollar terms) what a high court judge is paid. Now by the same token we are not "just glorified bus drivers" either as Bob's famous quote suggested. But surely you can agree that we fall somewhere in between and that remuneration should reflect that standing.
Furthermore, I regularly fly in excess of 800 hours and if this were to be extended to 900, I still don't think that I would be doing it that hard, still plenty of time for my other pursuits in life. After all the reason I got in to this profession was to fly, the more,(within the regulatory framework) the better as far as I am concerned. When I am no longer permitted to fly for a living, I will still continue to get airborne at every opportunity.
Cheers and happy flying, HH.
PS: It is possible to have a wealthy retirement whether your on $50,000, $150,000 or $250,000, you just need to invest wisely instead of pissing it all up against a wall, in some seedy bar in Bangkok.
My comments were not intended to be a commentary on working conditions in Australia. They were merely an expression of my personal preference to live in Australia, along with the inference that whilst I prefer that scenario, others can, and do choose a different path.
I don't know where the dollars equals professionalism attitude comes from, but let me tell you the two are not co-dependant.
I will concede that airlines in a better financial situation do have available better safety resources, but it then becomes a management responsibility as to how these resources are allocated. To use the prevelant example, ie:Qantas v Jetstar, I expect both companies would have available very similar resources as well as expertise, as they are owned by the same company!!
Now to the BIG question of MONEY.
Cast aside all your preconceived ideas and think about this question.
Could you possibly entertain the thought that in the past pilot's were perhaps overpaid?
Now this is a heavily quantified question, but if you can even slightly contemplate the thought, then perhaps what is occuring in Australia is a correction of pilot salaries to a more sustainable level. My personal opinion is that's exactly what has happened, both here and overseas and that conditions will soon see improvement to a more sustainable level, given the changing aviation marketplace.
In the past pilots were paid as much as high court judges, whilst no less important, I certainly do not believe that my position is worth (in dollar terms) what a high court judge is paid. Now by the same token we are not "just glorified bus drivers" either as Bob's famous quote suggested. But surely you can agree that we fall somewhere in between and that remuneration should reflect that standing.
Furthermore, I regularly fly in excess of 800 hours and if this were to be extended to 900, I still don't think that I would be doing it that hard, still plenty of time for my other pursuits in life. After all the reason I got in to this profession was to fly, the more,(within the regulatory framework) the better as far as I am concerned. When I am no longer permitted to fly for a living, I will still continue to get airborne at every opportunity.
Cheers and happy flying, HH.
PS: It is possible to have a wealthy retirement whether your on $50,000, $150,000 or $250,000, you just need to invest wisely instead of pissing it all up against a wall, in some seedy bar in Bangkok.
Last edited by Howard Hughes; 17th Jul 2005 at 05:50.
320321
Forgive me for the assumption, I could be wrong, but your professional masochism and that of the handle Zapata's Blood is strikingly similar.
On a recent post you were critical of Qantas pilots' industrial hijacking, or words as such, in maintaining and improving their conditions of service over the years.
Yet, perversely, the aberration in Australia at the moment where low cost pilots continually degrade their conditions and undercut each other is " market forces ".
I know QF pilots can be a hard bunch to love, but you and Zapata's Blood have a few issues.
You are trolling. But lucky for you it's a bad weekend for footy so we can sidetrack as usual.
My slant is obvious- Australian pilots are being bluffed. Training credits come with aircraft orders yet low cost pilots are bluffed into paying for training. Low cost pilots are bluffed by senior management into unneccessarily undercutting each other etc etc.
The culture that exists that the only way forward is to professionally undercut is unneccessary and displays professional ineptitude.
Do you have any views on the issues at hand or are you really just trolling or playing Devil's Advocate?
Howard Hughes
So are you saying QF pilots are overpaid?
Forgive me for the assumption, I could be wrong, but your professional masochism and that of the handle Zapata's Blood is strikingly similar.
On a recent post you were critical of Qantas pilots' industrial hijacking, or words as such, in maintaining and improving their conditions of service over the years.
Yet, perversely, the aberration in Australia at the moment where low cost pilots continually degrade their conditions and undercut each other is " market forces ".
I know QF pilots can be a hard bunch to love, but you and Zapata's Blood have a few issues.
You are trolling. But lucky for you it's a bad weekend for footy so we can sidetrack as usual.
My slant is obvious- Australian pilots are being bluffed. Training credits come with aircraft orders yet low cost pilots are bluffed into paying for training. Low cost pilots are bluffed by senior management into unneccessarily undercutting each other etc etc.
The culture that exists that the only way forward is to professionally undercut is unneccessary and displays professional ineptitude.
Do you have any views on the issues at hand or are you really just trolling or playing Devil's Advocate?
Howard Hughes
So are you saying QF pilots are overpaid?
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I didn't have a crystal ball back then Bloggs so I can't answer the last past of yuor question. The Airlink (Q-link these days) contract was a cost + deal. Wazza tendered and told the pilots what he was prepared to pay (them) -take it or leave it and they took it.
No different today, so I am told.
No different today, so I am told.
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So are you saying QF pilots are overpaid?
What I am saying is that aviation has gone through a considerable number of changes!!
In particular it seems the changes with regard to customer focus and company structure have accelerated in the last ten or so years resulting in a decline in relative pilot wages. From what I have seen, Qantas pilot group wages have remained fairly constant to what they were 10 years ago and will continue to diminish, whilst not in actual monetary terms, but when compared with others such as high court judges.
In comparison I expect the lower wages of your colleagues at Jetstar will continue to increase until such time as the difference is negligble. There will always be some difference given the distinction between the different types of flying ie:"longhaul" and "short haul" already present within the Qantas group.
I see the whole finger pointing exercise as to who started the demise as pointless. To blame GA, the regionals, and anyone else who may just earn less than a QF pilot is ridiculous. Australian aviation has been full of people who will work for less since I started out in the industry 22 years ago and I suspect they were around long before that.
Whilst Kaptin M and I are worlds apart on many subjects, he does have a point when he says that a structured career path is needed throughout all tiers of aviation. I don't believe however that total union control is the way for this to be achieved. There needs to be some form of institutional recognition for what is required to achieve each qualification, or perhaps some other form of recognition.
So in answer to your question, no I don't think that Qantas pilots are overpaid per se, although perhaps they were in the past. But I do think however, that there will be a closing of the gap between the 2 groups in the future.
Just a point of order on your previous post:
A good percentage of low cost pilots today will become the working poor ie: having to fly 900 hours a year, eating cold sandwiches and paying for a Coke, well into their 60's to fund retirement. On the other hand there will be a percentage of professional pilots well positioned.
In the future I believe the low cost model will be the norm for airlines around the world, yes even the so called "legacy airlines" whilst they may offer business and first classes, they will still conform to the low cost model, for Qantas I suspect this will occur when the Pacifc routes are opened to all comers, whilst things have been delayed temporarily, it is only a matter of time... This change alone will require productivity gains from all areas of the company.
Whilst you may not agree with my thoughts entirely, I suspect that you must agree with me partially, hence your reticence to answer my initial question.
Cheers, HH.
PS: To the chagrin of some, I would do this job for nothing I enjoy it so much! However one does need to live, I guess it all comes down to the lifestyle you wish to lead...
Last edited by Howard Hughes; 17th Jul 2005 at 08:22.
146,
In other words, you have no idea what you are talking about. Crawl back into your gas-chamber and keep your trap shut.
I didn't have a crystal ball back then Bloggs so I can't answer the last past of yuor question. The Airlink (Q-link these days) contract was a cost + deal. Wazza tendered and told the pilots what he was prepared to pay (them) -take it or leave it and they took it.
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A few more points Expanding,
1) The Jetstar pilots haven't even voted on a new EBA yet.
2)Rescue 1 is incorrect.The current base with super is even more than he stated.
3)You heard no overtime in the next twelve months.Well you have been incorrect about everything else you have posted on this topic but you might just be right on that score, but not because you have any facts.
Seriously Expanding, if you are what you describe yourself as in your profile you are so far out of your depth it's not funny! and why does what a group of people do in a profession you are not even a part of make you so upset.
1) The Jetstar pilots haven't even voted on a new EBA yet.
2)Rescue 1 is incorrect.The current base with super is even more than he stated.
3)You heard no overtime in the next twelve months.Well you have been incorrect about everything else you have posted on this topic but you might just be right on that score, but not because you have any facts.
Seriously Expanding, if you are what you describe yourself as in your profile you are so far out of your depth it's not funny! and why does what a group of people do in a profession you are not even a part of make you so upset.
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This argument has been going around in various guises for at least a couple of years now. We've had threads on the deteriorating pay and conditions of airlines pilots and the debates on supply and demand. We've had threads on what an airline pilot is worth compared to other professionals, and we've had threads on the sense of economic rationalism and the protection of Qantas' pacific routes from "competition". Oh, and of course we've had anti-Qantas threads by the truckful.
I argued long and hard on the threads about the pressure on airline wages because of pilot groups being played off against each other. I still feel that the situation will only stop when pilots are no longer prepared to cut each other's throats or pay for their endorsements. Of course, there are always many who tell me that as a QF pilot, I'm paid far too much and, others like Howard Hughes, are prepared to work for nothing really for love of the job. Of course, everybody's point of view is valid to them. I think Next Generation feels that everybody over 25 should be euthanised so that he can progress quickly to the left-hand seat and happily accept whatever pittance his employer deigns to pay him. In a way I admire his and Howard Hughes' love of the job - I used to feel that way too many years ago. It's funny how children, school, mortgage (and life in general) seem to jade you eventually so that the cockpit becomes just another office overseen by a boss who really doesn't give a s$#t about anything but money, and how much you're costing him.
So how will the situation change? For those who've argued the "supply and demand" equation it will only change when the demand for pilots exceeds supply. As I am now utterly convinced that there will NEVER be a shortage of those prepared to undercut and pay for endorsements to crack it in the bigtime (or whatever form it will take in the future), the supply will only dry up when the flying schools in this country are dead. The way that pilots' wages are heading, this will be inevitable for anyone other than those who have the cash available to fly for fun - probably guys in management who are looking for ways to blow their bonuses. I know that I would never advise my sons to seek a career in aviation - in my opinion, the industry is now well and truly stuffed!!!
The punters will continue to seek first class service at economy class prices and, to grab market share, the airlines will continue to attempt to provide it by having their employees subsidise it through ever-reducing (in real terms) pay and conditions. I look at the USA which, as always, sets the trend, and I despair for where the industry will be in ten years time. The "legacy" carriers (just love that term) will probably all concede to bankruptcy and disappear - todays' low cost carriers will become America's new "legacy" carriers. After a brief period of profitability, a new breed of even lower costs carriers will start up to lure away their customers with even lower prices, arrived at by the slash and burn wages provided to those leftovers from the bankrupt earlier legacy carriers' workforce who are not prepared (or too old) to seek another career path.
People will forget (and have indeed already forgotten) how potentially dangerous flying can still be when the holes in the cheese line up. Pilots are being progressivley reduced to the status of bus-drivers, except when something goes wrong, where the punters expect their lives to be saved by the professionalism in the flight deck. What is the relative worth of a pilot? Quite a lot, I imagine, since pilots are often the last link in the chain to prevent the company's management from fronting the courts to try to justify to the families of crash victims why their safety departments and flight operations systems had been cut to the bone to reduce the cost of that economy class seat to Melbourne to $25. But this argument too is lost on the economic rationalists to whom the world and all its people are just a factor in the bottom line.
So I must apologise for the length of this diatribe. It's my birthday and I am one year closer to retirement. In the industry as it stands, I just hope that I can keep what I have for the next 10 or 12 years so that I can go to the retirement knacker's yard with something left in the bank. To Howard Hughes and Next Generation - good luck to you! I'm sure that your employers are greatly heartened by your attitudes and views on the joy of flying. I hope that you can meet your family's expectations on the legacy of this period of aviation. Maybe I have just transitioned to the rank of boring old fart who sees nothing but gloom and doom - or maybe I have just listened to Geoff Dixon too much. But I think that the industry is at a watershed and that in 10 years time, these will be the glory days before aircraft became the Greyhound/Pioneer busses of the sky.
PS I completed the Qantas engagement survey and I wish the eager volunteers good luck - they have got a lot of work in front of them.
I argued long and hard on the threads about the pressure on airline wages because of pilot groups being played off against each other. I still feel that the situation will only stop when pilots are no longer prepared to cut each other's throats or pay for their endorsements. Of course, there are always many who tell me that as a QF pilot, I'm paid far too much and, others like Howard Hughes, are prepared to work for nothing really for love of the job. Of course, everybody's point of view is valid to them. I think Next Generation feels that everybody over 25 should be euthanised so that he can progress quickly to the left-hand seat and happily accept whatever pittance his employer deigns to pay him. In a way I admire his and Howard Hughes' love of the job - I used to feel that way too many years ago. It's funny how children, school, mortgage (and life in general) seem to jade you eventually so that the cockpit becomes just another office overseen by a boss who really doesn't give a s$#t about anything but money, and how much you're costing him.
So how will the situation change? For those who've argued the "supply and demand" equation it will only change when the demand for pilots exceeds supply. As I am now utterly convinced that there will NEVER be a shortage of those prepared to undercut and pay for endorsements to crack it in the bigtime (or whatever form it will take in the future), the supply will only dry up when the flying schools in this country are dead. The way that pilots' wages are heading, this will be inevitable for anyone other than those who have the cash available to fly for fun - probably guys in management who are looking for ways to blow their bonuses. I know that I would never advise my sons to seek a career in aviation - in my opinion, the industry is now well and truly stuffed!!!
The punters will continue to seek first class service at economy class prices and, to grab market share, the airlines will continue to attempt to provide it by having their employees subsidise it through ever-reducing (in real terms) pay and conditions. I look at the USA which, as always, sets the trend, and I despair for where the industry will be in ten years time. The "legacy" carriers (just love that term) will probably all concede to bankruptcy and disappear - todays' low cost carriers will become America's new "legacy" carriers. After a brief period of profitability, a new breed of even lower costs carriers will start up to lure away their customers with even lower prices, arrived at by the slash and burn wages provided to those leftovers from the bankrupt earlier legacy carriers' workforce who are not prepared (or too old) to seek another career path.
People will forget (and have indeed already forgotten) how potentially dangerous flying can still be when the holes in the cheese line up. Pilots are being progressivley reduced to the status of bus-drivers, except when something goes wrong, where the punters expect their lives to be saved by the professionalism in the flight deck. What is the relative worth of a pilot? Quite a lot, I imagine, since pilots are often the last link in the chain to prevent the company's management from fronting the courts to try to justify to the families of crash victims why their safety departments and flight operations systems had been cut to the bone to reduce the cost of that economy class seat to Melbourne to $25. But this argument too is lost on the economic rationalists to whom the world and all its people are just a factor in the bottom line.
So I must apologise for the length of this diatribe. It's my birthday and I am one year closer to retirement. In the industry as it stands, I just hope that I can keep what I have for the next 10 or 12 years so that I can go to the retirement knacker's yard with something left in the bank. To Howard Hughes and Next Generation - good luck to you! I'm sure that your employers are greatly heartened by your attitudes and views on the joy of flying. I hope that you can meet your family's expectations on the legacy of this period of aviation. Maybe I have just transitioned to the rank of boring old fart who sees nothing but gloom and doom - or maybe I have just listened to Geoff Dixon too much. But I think that the industry is at a watershed and that in 10 years time, these will be the glory days before aircraft became the Greyhound/Pioneer busses of the sky.
PS I completed the Qantas engagement survey and I wish the eager volunteers good luck - they have got a lot of work in front of them.
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Well saidThree Bars ,when you look at how the industry has changed in the last ten years,and the ten years before that,and the ten years before that,its frightening to imagine where we'll be in another 10.
Like you,I just hope to make it to the end (retirement) within an industry that still has some dignity,and I hope to be able to say I was proud to be a Pilot.
As a mate put it "loves the work,but hates the industry".
Oh.....................and Happy Birthday!!>
Like you,I just hope to make it to the end (retirement) within an industry that still has some dignity,and I hope to be able to say I was proud to be a Pilot.
As a mate put it "loves the work,but hates the industry".
Oh.....................and Happy Birthday!!>
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Well saidThree Bars ,when you look at how the industry has changed in the last ten years,and the ten years before that,and the ten years before that,its frightening to imagine where we'll be in another 10.
Now lets take a look at every other industry in Australia...... See the comparison???? ... Doesnt take a genius to see that things change hey?
I think we all need to go back a few pages and read BOLTY MCBOLTS very accurate assessment of our industry. Perhaps it is the fact that he is an outsider looking in, that he sees things without his Serengettis, Brietling and bloated ego getting in the way.
Ask any doctor how many hours he has to work these days and whether he or she is being payed like doctors of 20 years ago?
And ask the people of Bundaberg (Dr. P^*$#k) if they are happy with the government allowing cheap labour in from overseas.
We're no different folks. It's pretty simple. (In an ideal world anyway)
1. Show govenment and the public that Aussie pilots do it better! (Just like Aussie doctors. Perhaps by drawing parallells to the P*&$%k case in QLD ) and that promoting local industry and employment is good for us all long term, regardless of industry! ( no easy task)
2. Stop blaming one another and unite. It really isnt any one groups fault!
If we cant do the above 2 items ( which it seems we cant ) and we enjoy the flexibility of "working a 6 month contract in Italy" before "cruising over to Spain for 12 months work" or "building some time in PNG or Africa" ie. we are happy to swap and trade workers then consider the "give 'n take" principle, listen to BAE146 and have a Bex and take a good lie down.........
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Sprucegoose
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Hughes Point, where life is great! Was also resident on page 13, but now I'm lost in Cyberspace....
Age: 59
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Gidday Three Bars,
Thank you for your most informative post, I must commend you on your writing skills, whilst differing in opinion to myself you have conveyed your message clearly and concisely and without malice, it is indeed a rarity on an anonymous forum and a credit to your good character.
I find it heartening to note that you once shared the same passion that myself and others feel for this industry, but saddened to think that you may not still share the same.
Whilst I said "I would do this job for nothing I enjoy it so much", this is not to be taken literally. It is meant only as an illustration of the passion that I show for aviation. In practical terms one must live, pay the mortgage, educate the kids and always have the latest gadgets as you so eloquently stated. As I said previously it all depends on the lifestyle that you wish to lead! For me I am happy with my position in life, I want for nothing and should be able to continue with my chosen pursuits well into retirement in 20 or so years, so I am in reality not that far behind you.
Where I may differ from you and others, is that I do not believe safety is directly related to payscale, there are safe pilots throughout all tiers of aviation, I would suggest that it is more related to an individuals own dedication to their chosen profession, rather than how much they earn that keeps the holes fom lining up. I do concede however that financial worries and an unstable work environment can be a contributing factor in safety related issues.
Lastly, as I stated previously I think that the piloting profession will always be regarded by the general public as sitting somewhere above that of a bus driver, but perhaps still below some other professions. Of course bus drivers are still charged with the same responsibilty to keep the holes from lining up, but are challenged by less variables and of course only 2 dimensions.
I hope I have clarified some of my thoughts for you, or at least made my position a little clearer.
Cheers, HH.
Thank you for your most informative post, I must commend you on your writing skills, whilst differing in opinion to myself you have conveyed your message clearly and concisely and without malice, it is indeed a rarity on an anonymous forum and a credit to your good character.
I find it heartening to note that you once shared the same passion that myself and others feel for this industry, but saddened to think that you may not still share the same.
Whilst I said "I would do this job for nothing I enjoy it so much", this is not to be taken literally. It is meant only as an illustration of the passion that I show for aviation. In practical terms one must live, pay the mortgage, educate the kids and always have the latest gadgets as you so eloquently stated. As I said previously it all depends on the lifestyle that you wish to lead! For me I am happy with my position in life, I want for nothing and should be able to continue with my chosen pursuits well into retirement in 20 or so years, so I am in reality not that far behind you.
Where I may differ from you and others, is that I do not believe safety is directly related to payscale, there are safe pilots throughout all tiers of aviation, I would suggest that it is more related to an individuals own dedication to their chosen profession, rather than how much they earn that keeps the holes fom lining up. I do concede however that financial worries and an unstable work environment can be a contributing factor in safety related issues.
Lastly, as I stated previously I think that the piloting profession will always be regarded by the general public as sitting somewhere above that of a bus driver, but perhaps still below some other professions. Of course bus drivers are still charged with the same responsibilty to keep the holes from lining up, but are challenged by less variables and of course only 2 dimensions.
I hope I have clarified some of my thoughts for you, or at least made my position a little clearer.
Cheers, HH.
Last edited by Howard Hughes; 18th Jul 2005 at 08:58.