Qantaslink
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Granite Belt, Australia
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If you haven't got the skills for the job why should anyone employ you? Or am I being too simplistic.
I can understand that if you are already in the employ of a company that introduces new technology the employee should be trained on this new technology at the employER's expense.
I accepted a promotion within a company for which I needed more training. I attended a training establishment at my own initial cost with the company reimbursing the fees AFTER I HAD PASSED the the examination each year. No pass no reimbursement.
After saying that I used to work for an airline that employed a pilot who didn't have a current licence! Obviously the pilot was able to get one... and he became a good friend.
I can understand that if you are already in the employ of a company that introduces new technology the employee should be trained on this new technology at the employER's expense.
I accepted a promotion within a company for which I needed more training. I attended a training establishment at my own initial cost with the company reimbursing the fees AFTER I HAD PASSED the the examination each year. No pass no reimbursement.
After saying that I used to work for an airline that employed a pilot who didn't have a current licence! Obviously the pilot was able to get one... and he became a good friend.
Join Date: Feb 2000
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Pilots do still have some power of persuasion.
Apart from how we can affect the operating costs, -
Might I suggest that a period of sick days, over a period of time may indicate that we can cost them more than they intend saving by giving us the raw pineapple treatment.
1 day at a time does not require a not from our mums or Doctors, infact I am starting to feel sick right now.
Apart from how we can affect the operating costs, -
Might I suggest that a period of sick days, over a period of time may indicate that we can cost them more than they intend saving by giving us the raw pineapple treatment.
1 day at a time does not require a not from our mums or Doctors, infact I am starting to feel sick right now.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: mexico
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Debating the right or wrong about new joiners funding a type rating is pointless. Clearly, like the US, Australia has plenty of people willing to pay for a type rating if it gets them what they want - higher salary, better safety, better rostering and perks such as staff travel.
This is what capitalism is about people, like or lump it, it happens no matter how much you grumble.
This is what capitalism is about people, like or lump it, it happens no matter how much you grumble.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: USA
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I think it's time to put up or shut up. We are our worst enemy. I can see signs that the pool of experienced pilots is already starting to dry up. The airlines and regionals should be asking them selves who is going to fly their aircraft in 5 - 10 years time?
You might be able to get a cadet to become a SO at 200hrs but not a FO or Capt. Where are the experienced (ie >1500T 500MC) pilots going to come from when no one takes up flying because they can't afford to.
Like most of you say, who in their right mind would get a licence (god knows what a CPL costs now) knowing in advance that after years in GA plus extra costs for C-ME IFR etc gets them a
This is the worst time in the industry for operators to go asking for endos and paying peanuts. Lets just turn everybody away from flying.
This quoted from the QL email
to better meet its overall pilot recruitment requirements 
QL you have just lost my application before I have even considered applying. And I have passed the controversial psych test that seems to cull many suitable candidates.(not indended as a horn blow).
It is getting harder and harder to stay motivated in this industry. 'Pilot' will find its way next to the Tasmanian Tiger on the endangered species list in years to come if the current operators keep on the current path. The key to a successful business is happy (even able to support themself) staff. They are your company's investment, so invest in them and get the returns, real profits - not false ones by cutting costs.
There will be a 'correction' in the industry like the stock market sooner or later and the remaining pilots will benefit. IMO I don't believe a 'requirement change' will offset a shortage. Simply because the airlines won't be able to afford the increased insurance premiums when all they have left to command their aircraft are 200hr pilots. As for qualified overseas applicants
qualified by whos standards? 100hrs on type 500total and a US ATPL?
You might be able to get a cadet to become a SO at 200hrs but not a FO or Capt. Where are the experienced (ie >1500T 500MC) pilots going to come from when no one takes up flying because they can't afford to.
Like most of you say, who in their right mind would get a licence (god knows what a CPL costs now) knowing in advance that after years in GA plus extra costs for C-ME IFR etc gets them a
($38k and paying up to 18K for Dash 8 endo AND have to live in expensive Sydney)
This quoted from the QL email
The review highlighted the fact that this process is in line with industry practice and will allow QantasLink to better meet its overall pilot recruitment requirements
QL you have just lost my application before I have even considered applying. And I have passed the controversial psych test that seems to cull many suitable candidates.(not indended as a horn blow).
It is getting harder and harder to stay motivated in this industry. 'Pilot' will find its way next to the Tasmanian Tiger on the endangered species list in years to come if the current operators keep on the current path. The key to a successful business is happy (even able to support themself) staff. They are your company's investment, so invest in them and get the returns, real profits - not false ones by cutting costs.
There will be a 'correction' in the industry like the stock market sooner or later and the remaining pilots will benefit. IMO I don't believe a 'requirement change' will offset a shortage. Simply because the airlines won't be able to afford the increased insurance premiums when all they have left to command their aircraft are 200hr pilots. As for qualified overseas applicants
qualified by whos standards? 100hrs on type 500total and a US ATPL?
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: WA
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I guess this could be the start for a boom time for the RAAF. They are getting the Airbus A330 and and a new squadron of 737s (AWACS) and already operate the 737BBJ, and they won't be asking for candidates to pay for their ratings-
"Dear Bloggs,
Congratulations on having passed our medical, and pyschological testing. You will be accepted into the RAAF as a pilot once you have paid us $10 000 000 to cover the conversion costs of the CT4, PC9, Hawk 127 and F/A 18 aircraft."
I don't think so.
"Dear Bloggs,
Congratulations on having passed our medical, and pyschological testing. You will be accepted into the RAAF as a pilot once you have paid us $10 000 000 to cover the conversion costs of the CT4, PC9, Hawk 127 and F/A 18 aircraft."
I don't think so.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Sand Pit
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Folks,
lets get this issue some real attention. Write a letter to the editor of the Australian linking the accusation by AUSAC that the Government is to blame for the impending pilot shortage while they are actively creating the false premise of a shortage by essentially asking pilots to subsidise the companies costs, thereby artificially reducing the number of applicants. With fewer applicants they will have the 'evidence' that there IS a shortage of pilots.
This is a travesty and must be put to an end. We all know that the pilot shortage is a complete myth.
If enough of us write to the Australian then someone will get published. Lets be heard people!
lets get this issue some real attention. Write a letter to the editor of the Australian linking the accusation by AUSAC that the Government is to blame for the impending pilot shortage while they are actively creating the false premise of a shortage by essentially asking pilots to subsidise the companies costs, thereby artificially reducing the number of applicants. With fewer applicants they will have the 'evidence' that there IS a shortage of pilots.
This is a travesty and must be put to an end. We all know that the pilot shortage is a complete myth.
If enough of us write to the Australian then someone will get published. Lets be heard people!
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, USA
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To simply assume, "That's the way that it's done in the USA", is complete and utter rubbish.
Fly by night operators, or those that can only attract marginally qualified candidates are the only ones that still do it.
I can supply accident reports and even a training accident involving an Embraer jet split in two following a "hard" landing in Texas!! All of these involving poorly qualified types at the controls in pay-for-training operating environments.
The fact that PFT is diminishing in the USA and that hull losses are now at their minimum should tell you something.
This is not in the interests of securing a safe airspace in the Australian environment. This is oportunism run rampant, at the expense of safety.
If you want a four page report sent to Steve Creedy, to be published in The Australian, citing NTSB sources and airline Chief Pilots...it can be done!!
Fly by night operators, or those that can only attract marginally qualified candidates are the only ones that still do it.
I can supply accident reports and even a training accident involving an Embraer jet split in two following a "hard" landing in Texas!! All of these involving poorly qualified types at the controls in pay-for-training operating environments.
The fact that PFT is diminishing in the USA and that hull losses are now at their minimum should tell you something.
This is not in the interests of securing a safe airspace in the Australian environment. This is oportunism run rampant, at the expense of safety.
If you want a four page report sent to Steve Creedy, to be published in The Australian, citing NTSB sources and airline Chief Pilots...it can be done!!
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Australia
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An effective way to get back at Qantaslink is to let them interview you, get the piece of paper saying you have a job and act like you plan to proceed with the paying for your endorsement. Qantaslink will then put their training roster together to cover your line training etc plus they will be working out their future rosters and schedules based on the pilot numbers they think they will after the new pilots have completed their training.
Just before you have to fork out the cash to their "preferred training provider" give them a call and say you couldn't raise they money. And if those who are currently employed pull "sickie's", their schedules will go out the window and they may have to cancel flights. That will soon make them look at and change their recruitment policy.
Hold onto the piece of paper offering the position, as it could will become very handy when they find themselves short of pilots.
Just before you have to fork out the cash to their "preferred training provider" give them a call and say you couldn't raise they money. And if those who are currently employed pull "sickie's", their schedules will go out the window and they may have to cancel flights. That will soon make them look at and change their recruitment policy.
Hold onto the piece of paper offering the position, as it could will become very handy when they find themselves short of pilots.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Sydney NSW Australia
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since when has anyone taken some smart thinking from the US aviation indusrty and applied it here??
first was with GA and Terrorism, the US Knows that GA aircraft are no threat to homeland security, and promtly left it alone to prosper, but not here! a 500 KG plastic aircraft flying at 90Kts IS a terrorist weapon of choice! even when its crewed by honest australians!
even if proven that pay for training endos doesnt work in the US and is directly responsible for a decline in safety, that wont matter here, all that matters here in Oz, is
$$ saved.
first was with GA and Terrorism, the US Knows that GA aircraft are no threat to homeland security, and promtly left it alone to prosper, but not here! a 500 KG plastic aircraft flying at 90Kts IS a terrorist weapon of choice! even when its crewed by honest australians!
even if proven that pay for training endos doesnt work in the US and is directly responsible for a decline in safety, that wont matter here, all that matters here in Oz, is
$$ saved.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Australia
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ITCZ has put some less than subtle pressure on the Chief Pilots of Eastern's & Sunstate but in their defense perhaps they are just pawns on the chessboard having being given a shyte job to do.
The rot stops when men and women use their ability to choose to do what is right over what is wrong.
The threat of a loss of income or being demoted to the line -- is that REALLY a frightening prospect, in an industry where in order to get into bigger aeroplanes, you put your life on the line in the mountains of PNG, having spears waved in your fact in Arnhemland, or being shot at in the services?
No, shagtastic, those men putting their names at the bottom of a letter like that, tells me plenty about them. And if they are Federation members enjoying Federation benefits, they won't be doing so for much longer. Hope the extra income from QF link helps them get over it.
It is never an easy thing to do the right thing. In fact the more important the decision, the harder it is to do the right thing.
Making excuses for not doing so is as old as human history. I am not surprised, just dishearted to discover the true nature of the CP's of these organisations.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: S/E Australia
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And, of course - to the guy that was wondering where the struggling GA pilots would get the $18,000.00 to pay for the endo to QL's "PREFERRED" company?
Not to worry - Alas! Qantas Credit Union to the rescue will only be too happy to provide you the credit and reap the repayments PLUS INTEREST from you in to their bank accounts!
This whole thing stinks of them making money!
BIG TIME!
BTW - check this little bit from the CASA website. This should allay any fears of a looming shortage. The figure below relates to active pilots presumably seeking employment!
http://www.casa.gov.au/fcl/overbr.htm
Skills assessments for migration purposes
NOTE: In Australia there are currently more than 14,000 Commercial and ATPL pilots who are not employed as pilots. The Department of Immigration and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs (DIMIA) is reviewing the requirement for the continued immigration of Pilots under the Skills Assessment for the Purposes of Migration (Aircraft Pilot, ASCO code 2541-11).
It is anticipated that in the near future, Aircraft Pilots will be removed from the Skilled Occupations List (SOL) which applies to applications lodged under the points-tested migration arrangements.
CASA has been advised that once the pilot occupation has been removed from the SOL, the change becomes effective immediately and no further applications will be processed by DIMIA under this category, including those already received and not yet finalised.
Due to the time and financial costs involved in converting an overseas licence to the Australian equivalent for migration skills assessment purposes, potential applicants should take these factors into consideration before deciding whether to convert their licence when this avenue may not be available.
What do you think?
Not to worry - Alas! Qantas Credit Union to the rescue will only be too happy to provide you the credit and reap the repayments PLUS INTEREST from you in to their bank accounts!
This whole thing stinks of them making money!
BIG TIME!
BTW - check this little bit from the CASA website. This should allay any fears of a looming shortage. The figure below relates to active pilots presumably seeking employment!
http://www.casa.gov.au/fcl/overbr.htm
Skills assessments for migration purposes
NOTE: In Australia there are currently more than 14,000 Commercial and ATPL pilots who are not employed as pilots. The Department of Immigration and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs (DIMIA) is reviewing the requirement for the continued immigration of Pilots under the Skills Assessment for the Purposes of Migration (Aircraft Pilot, ASCO code 2541-11).
It is anticipated that in the near future, Aircraft Pilots will be removed from the Skilled Occupations List (SOL) which applies to applications lodged under the points-tested migration arrangements.
CASA has been advised that once the pilot occupation has been removed from the SOL, the change becomes effective immediately and no further applications will be processed by DIMIA under this category, including those already received and not yet finalised.
Due to the time and financial costs involved in converting an overseas licence to the Australian equivalent for migration skills assessment purposes, potential applicants should take these factors into consideration before deciding whether to convert their licence when this avenue may not be available.
What do you think?
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: shivering in the cold dark shadow of my own magnificence.
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All too often we've had to listen to 89ers whinging about how bad Sir Peter and Ansett were to work for..and the scabs..oh the scabs..It strikes me as a funny irony that quite a few of these guys are working for a company that charges for training.
As far as I'm concerned the REAL scabs are not only the ones who degraded themselves and the industry by paying for the endorsement, but the captains who sat back and watched it.
Thanks for todays industry guys.
As far as I'm concerned the REAL scabs are not only the ones who degraded themselves and the industry by paying for the endorsement, but the captains who sat back and watched it.
Thanks for todays industry guys.
RYAN TCAD, nice conspiracy theory but QSCU is independent of the company being a cooperative set up and managed by the employees.
QF doesn't make a red cent out of the operation of the QSCU.
If I was borrowing money I'd rather borrow it from them anyway, as their service and rates s^&t all over the banks from a very great height.
QF doesn't make a red cent out of the operation of the QSCU.
If I was borrowing money I'd rather borrow it from them anyway, as their service and rates s^&t all over the banks from a very great height.
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Mjbow2 and SPS
I agree. We should start to air this disgraceful trend in the media. A group of whinging pilots on a forum is just that. It about time we got some air play.
Brinda.....
I agree. We should start to air this disgraceful trend in the media. A group of whinging pilots on a forum is just that. It about time we got some air play.
Brinda.....
Join Date: Apr 2002
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From No worries mate's post below - I think there will be no need to do this deliberately, there will be plenty doing this whether they want to or not.
No Worries Mate
"An effective way to get back at Qantaslink is to let them interview you, get the piece of paper saying you have a job and act like you plan to proceed with the paying for your endorsement. Qantaslink will then put their training roster together to cover your line training etc plus they will be working out their future rosters and schedules based on the pilot numbers they think they will after the new pilots have completed their training.
Just before you have to fork out the cash to their "preferred training provider" give them a call and say you couldn't raise they money. And if those who are currently employed pull "sickie's", their schedules will go out the window and they may have to cancel flights. That will soon make them look at and change their recruitment policy.
Hold onto the piece of paper offering the position, as it could will become very handy when they find themselves short of pilots."
No Worries Mate
"An effective way to get back at Qantaslink is to let them interview you, get the piece of paper saying you have a job and act like you plan to proceed with the paying for your endorsement. Qantaslink will then put their training roster together to cover your line training etc plus they will be working out their future rosters and schedules based on the pilot numbers they think they will after the new pilots have completed their training.
Just before you have to fork out the cash to their "preferred training provider" give them a call and say you couldn't raise they money. And if those who are currently employed pull "sickie's", their schedules will go out the window and they may have to cancel flights. That will soon make them look at and change their recruitment policy.
Hold onto the piece of paper offering the position, as it could will become very handy when they find themselves short of pilots."
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Ok so when it comes time to move on...
"He did what? he took how many sick days in his first week? Really? He tried to hold you at randsome?... no really I'm sure he is a top bloke. Oh he didnt tell you that he was applying elsewhere?"
"So how did the interview at Dragon go mate?"
"Nah not for me... I hate asia"
Funny how small the world is when you make a C*@T of yourself!
bbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzz
"He did what? he took how many sick days in his first week? Really? He tried to hold you at randsome?... no really I'm sure he is a top bloke. Oh he didnt tell you that he was applying elsewhere?"
"So how did the interview at Dragon go mate?"
"Nah not for me... I hate asia"
Funny how small the world is when you make a C*@T of yourself!
bbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Join Date: Sep 2001
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NO WORRIES MATE
Your suggesting due to your opposition to the self funded endorsement program that people should try to undermine the process and say yes I'll do it then say oh sorry I won't.
Hang on - would that be as bad as some one starting the endorsement process and resigning before it was finished as they had a job offer to move on to larger equipment, or resigning half way through the ground school for similar reasons?
Do some home work and you'll probably find that this has occured and in more than one or two companies!
I don't agree with the principle, however if it provides a sustainable benefit to any organisation and effective practices ensure maintenance of standards, then you really have to look on the other side of the fence and ask yourself really what are you trying to acheive other than making an As%$^le of yourself.
For the record - I believe the commencement of this practice within the regional airline environment is a sad day and the ramifications for attracting people into the profession may well have an impact some years down the track. But I understand the basic principle behind it and strongly believe it is up to the individuals to determine if they are prepared to fund their own endorsement prior to employment.
IMHO for what it is worth.
Your suggesting due to your opposition to the self funded endorsement program that people should try to undermine the process and say yes I'll do it then say oh sorry I won't.
Hang on - would that be as bad as some one starting the endorsement process and resigning before it was finished as they had a job offer to move on to larger equipment, or resigning half way through the ground school for similar reasons?
Do some home work and you'll probably find that this has occured and in more than one or two companies!
I don't agree with the principle, however if it provides a sustainable benefit to any organisation and effective practices ensure maintenance of standards, then you really have to look on the other side of the fence and ask yourself really what are you trying to acheive other than making an As%$^le of yourself.
For the record - I believe the commencement of this practice within the regional airline environment is a sad day and the ramifications for attracting people into the profession may well have an impact some years down the track. But I understand the basic principle behind it and strongly believe it is up to the individuals to determine if they are prepared to fund their own endorsement prior to employment.
IMHO for what it is worth.