Qantaslink
Only the beginning....???
A colleague of mine mentioned the other day that Ryanair (being the LCC Industry "leaders") now have gone to great lengths to save that extra dollar.
Let's hope QantasLink and others will not follow their precedent. These being:
1. The individual paying for sim renewal periods
2. Paying for uniform
3. Paying for your hotel room on overnights
4. Now not supplying bottled water for tech crew (yes, you buy it)
A colleague of mine mentioned the other day that Ryanair (being the LCC Industry "leaders") now have gone to great lengths to save that extra dollar.
Let's hope QantasLink and others will not follow their precedent. These being:
1. The individual paying for sim renewal periods
2. Paying for uniform
3. Paying for your hotel room on overnights
4. Now not supplying bottled water for tech crew (yes, you buy it)
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To be fair to VB (& No I don't work for them!), Virgin Express, Ryanair, Easyjet & Fruudum Urr (NZ) all had a pay for rating policy long before Tricky Dickie came to town.
Older fellas like myself see the real change being a result of the very different entrants into the aviation job market. In the 1970's and 1980's there were few "flying schools". Most pilots came from the RAAF, Aero Clubs and GA charter - we mostly worked our way up and there weren't so many of us around either. (Never saw advertising about becoming a Civil pilot then) Had anyone asked us to pay for a rating they would have had very little chance - we mostly didn't have, nor could we get the $! Not mention it would been taken as quite an afront - akin to asking a Dr to pay to learn how to use the latest hospital machine that goes "ping".
IMHO from the 1990's on there was a new phenomenon (big word for a pilot you say?). That was the profit oriented flying schools started up, aviation got widely advertised as a career choice for confused teenagers with wealthy folks, and the whole atmosphere changed with it. (Let me see shall my little Jonny or Mary be a Dr, Lawyer or Pilot? Hmmm - nice uniforms! DONE) It was quite noticeable to those of us on the scene then - the attitude of the aspirants was totally different. They were youn and had mummy's $ (although they always denied it - claiming a bank lent a 19 year old $50k with no assetts, no job and no history
To be fair to these kids in my view the flying schools were often fibbing to them about the job market and as such worsening the situation by flooding the market with wannabes.
They became a bit worried and before you could say "country road sale now on" it seemed that everywhere you turned you heard - "I'll work for free". Then it became "I'll pay for ME F/O time on commercial ops". And sure enough came "I'll pay for my on the job training" (i.e. type rating). And why not eh? If you are young, have no real debts and the folks are subsidising your living expenses - go for it! You can jump the que and be posing in that nice airline uniform much quicker eh!
Pity that it buggered it for everybody else eh
And you can hardly blame the airlines for lapping it up can ya? They run a business - their objectives are simple; Profit maximisation through cost minimisation, share price and profit bonuses for the CEO, etc. To be honest I'd be tempted if I was the CEO to go that way - only my resultant imsomnia would stop me!
We've done it to ourselves fellas - So don't blame the airlines so much. Its become std practice now. I only hope these rumoured shortages are real, maybe we can put things right a bit.
I recently had the pleasure of declining a Jet* interview, answering the lovely lady's question "why" with that sorry but I: don't pay for interviews and travel on QF to a QF interview for a job I am already doing, on the same type, for more money than you pay back home in OZ.
Many of my fellow antipodeans here feel the same - the only thing a job at home gives you is that - home. In most other respect its become a loser!
Older fellas like myself see the real change being a result of the very different entrants into the aviation job market. In the 1970's and 1980's there were few "flying schools". Most pilots came from the RAAF, Aero Clubs and GA charter - we mostly worked our way up and there weren't so many of us around either. (Never saw advertising about becoming a Civil pilot then) Had anyone asked us to pay for a rating they would have had very little chance - we mostly didn't have, nor could we get the $! Not mention it would been taken as quite an afront - akin to asking a Dr to pay to learn how to use the latest hospital machine that goes "ping".
IMHO from the 1990's on there was a new phenomenon (big word for a pilot you say?). That was the profit oriented flying schools started up, aviation got widely advertised as a career choice for confused teenagers with wealthy folks, and the whole atmosphere changed with it. (Let me see shall my little Jonny or Mary be a Dr, Lawyer or Pilot? Hmmm - nice uniforms! DONE) It was quite noticeable to those of us on the scene then - the attitude of the aspirants was totally different. They were youn and had mummy's $ (although they always denied it - claiming a bank lent a 19 year old $50k with no assetts, no job and no history
To be fair to these kids in my view the flying schools were often fibbing to them about the job market and as such worsening the situation by flooding the market with wannabes.They became a bit worried and before you could say "country road sale now on" it seemed that everywhere you turned you heard - "I'll work for free". Then it became "I'll pay for ME F/O time on commercial ops". And sure enough came "I'll pay for my on the job training" (i.e. type rating). And why not eh? If you are young, have no real debts and the folks are subsidising your living expenses - go for it! You can jump the que and be posing in that nice airline uniform much quicker eh!
Pity that it buggered it for everybody else eh
And you can hardly blame the airlines for lapping it up can ya? They run a business - their objectives are simple; Profit maximisation through cost minimisation, share price and profit bonuses for the CEO, etc. To be honest I'd be tempted if I was the CEO to go that way - only my resultant imsomnia would stop me!
We've done it to ourselves fellas - So don't blame the airlines so much. Its become std practice now. I only hope these rumoured shortages are real, maybe we can put things right a bit.
I recently had the pleasure of declining a Jet* interview, answering the lovely lady's question "why" with that sorry but I: don't pay for interviews and travel on QF to a QF interview for a job I am already doing, on the same type, for more money than you pay back home in OZ.
Many of my fellow antipodeans here feel the same - the only thing a job at home gives you is that - home. In most other respect its become a loser!
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Eastern is an airline that I have been applying to since I got my ATPL a couple of years ago and a company which I would have very much liked to work for. BUT how the hell are they expecting me and hundreds of other people that would have been good candidates to be able to save up that kind of money when I usually have $100 left over every fortnight. Are they expecting me to save up for seven years before there is even any point me having an interview? Or maybe we are supposed to get a loan and pay for it over the next ten years! At least with a bond everybody can actually have a go based on ability and experience not on wallet size. I am presuming that the majority of their pilots come from GA, and I would think that everybody else in GA would be thinking the same way as me. So where are their pilots going to come from overseas maybe?
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Got a job already so don't care?
To all those pilots already with Qantaslink who think that because you already have the job, that this is not going to affect you... Think again. This has totally changed the way your employer can treat you. Before it cost them money to replace you. Now it costs them nothing. They can screw with your pay and conditions all they like (and they will because employee morale doesnt appear anywhere on a balance sheet). You cant do a thing about it, because your resignation costs the company $0.00. Its a cost neutral exercise.
What can be done about this now? F*%ked if I know. Would say its already too late. But I would also say that this serves as a warning for all pilots already employed by Qantas: don't think you are immune. They already bond their pilots, why not charge them too? And why stop at the initial induction endorsement? Why not charge for every other endorsment throughout your career? Surely they would never try this on; their pilots would leave. Correct. And qantas would not give a s*#t !
What can be done about this now? F*%ked if I know. Would say its already too late. But I would also say that this serves as a warning for all pilots already employed by Qantas: don't think you are immune. They already bond their pilots, why not charge them too? And why stop at the initial induction endorsement? Why not charge for every other endorsment throughout your career? Surely they would never try this on; their pilots would leave. Correct. And qantas would not give a s*#t !
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What a sad day for Oz aviation.........I also over in kiwi land got the same e-mail, who the F*&! do they think they are!!!! there is a real need for pilots in NZ at the mo and if you aus guys realy feel the need to fly a Dash jump the dich cos our version of sun state are doing the exact same thing to replace their fleet of sabb 340a's first new ship to arrive next month and ya don't even have to pay too fly for them........sombody in that company needs the donkey punch!
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I still dont understand...Why would paying for your own endorsement make you wanna stay?? You'd be even more inclined to leave once you found a better paying job!!
The least they could do is put you on the QF seniorty list!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shamozzelled
The least they could do is put you on the QF seniorty list!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shamozzelled
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Well that's bloody it then isn't it.
How long before the other major regionals M*cair, Rip roaring R*x and the like do similar. Not long. Qlink may initially have trouble sourcing pilots with their scam sorry scheme, but the pressure they would be exerting on other similar regionals to do the same would be intense. As a consequence they will all be doing it shortly and any choice made to progress within the industry will come at the cost of about 50% or your yearly earnings.
Skipp@rs, once renowned for finally being the step out of GA now bonds you for 7K for two years, plus you fork out 7K of your own for the endo. For what, to earn 32K a year flying sometimes unqualified labourers (who so far have spent none of the 50-60K on their job's as we all have), to mine site's earning at least twice what the pilots who fly them there earn.
The rest of the dominoes are lining up and the birds are coming home to roost.
It used to be a given, 15 even 10 years ago that you worked for in GA for a number of years. If you were lucky you got the award (which really is laughably inadequate but we seem to aspire to it). Then you got out of GA into the regionals or an airline. You'd done your time, worked crap jobs for crap people but you knew the trade-off was there. A secure job, good pay and no expectations to pay any more (isn't 50-60K enough to get qualified) so you accepted it, kept your mouth shut and did you bloody job.
Where is that trade-off now? People WILL pay for these endorsements to work for between 32-45K as an FO on a metro, bras or Dash, because it will get them out of the endless day-to-day existence that is GA and it's financial right hand man the inadequate award.
It has to start off at the bottom. Operators not paying the award must be forced to. Then the award itself has to be adjusted to reflect that what we do is NOT unskilled labour (we are paid less than an agricultural labourer or a clerk). Then perhaps people reasonably paid and conditioned will not be so desperate to part with vast sum's of money just to earn slightly more. At some stage we need the trade-off or we'll be 65, forced to retire and wonder why none of us ever got ahead of the 8 ball.
Just re-reading my post, waste of time really, it's never going to happen, these schemes may not flourish, but they will take hold.
Bugger this, I'm off overseas. If I’m going to be treated as white slave labour, I'd rather it not be in my own country!
How long before the other major regionals M*cair, Rip roaring R*x and the like do similar. Not long. Qlink may initially have trouble sourcing pilots with their scam sorry scheme, but the pressure they would be exerting on other similar regionals to do the same would be intense. As a consequence they will all be doing it shortly and any choice made to progress within the industry will come at the cost of about 50% or your yearly earnings.
Skipp@rs, once renowned for finally being the step out of GA now bonds you for 7K for two years, plus you fork out 7K of your own for the endo. For what, to earn 32K a year flying sometimes unqualified labourers (who so far have spent none of the 50-60K on their job's as we all have), to mine site's earning at least twice what the pilots who fly them there earn.
The rest of the dominoes are lining up and the birds are coming home to roost.
It used to be a given, 15 even 10 years ago that you worked for in GA for a number of years. If you were lucky you got the award (which really is laughably inadequate but we seem to aspire to it). Then you got out of GA into the regionals or an airline. You'd done your time, worked crap jobs for crap people but you knew the trade-off was there. A secure job, good pay and no expectations to pay any more (isn't 50-60K enough to get qualified) so you accepted it, kept your mouth shut and did you bloody job.
Where is that trade-off now? People WILL pay for these endorsements to work for between 32-45K as an FO on a metro, bras or Dash, because it will get them out of the endless day-to-day existence that is GA and it's financial right hand man the inadequate award.
It has to start off at the bottom. Operators not paying the award must be forced to. Then the award itself has to be adjusted to reflect that what we do is NOT unskilled labour (we are paid less than an agricultural labourer or a clerk). Then perhaps people reasonably paid and conditioned will not be so desperate to part with vast sum's of money just to earn slightly more. At some stage we need the trade-off or we'll be 65, forced to retire and wonder why none of us ever got ahead of the 8 ball.
Just re-reading my post, waste of time really, it's never going to happen, these schemes may not flourish, but they will take hold.
Bugger this, I'm off overseas. If I’m going to be treated as white slave labour, I'd rather it not be in my own country!
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as i said befoe in another post, this just makes all levels of aviation just one big Hobbie! its not a job anymore if you have to pay to get that job, then spend a good % of those wages in repaying what you spent to get the Job. so the step from Below award in GA to a "better, good paying job" in the airlines is no more,
you will , in reality, still be on the same money as you were in GA, only this time, it wont be the below award pay, it will be meeting the loan repayments to cover the cost of your "job"
an aviation carrer is no longer that, just another Hobbie pursuit, and now a full time life devouring one at that!
and those with the most money, will only be playing with bigger toys....
you will , in reality, still be on the same money as you were in GA, only this time, it wont be the below award pay, it will be meeting the loan repayments to cover the cost of your "job"
an aviation carrer is no longer that, just another Hobbie pursuit, and now a full time life devouring one at that!
and those with the most money, will only be playing with bigger toys....
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UNACCEPTABLE!
Sent a email to Eastern today. Told them I will not be paying for this endorsement on Dash 8. Suggested they rethink their policy, or go without pilots. If everyone else who received the email from them replies in a similar fashion maybe they will rethink it when they run short of crew? Or not as may be. Some silvertails will stuff it for everyone else, regardless of their lack of skill as pilots. But I won't stand for it anymore. Stuff em! Earning more in GA (Classified) than airlines as FO ($38k and paying up to 18K for Dash 8 endo AND have to live in expensive Sydney), where is the incentive anymore?
Not Happy Jan!
Sent a email to Eastern today. Told them I will not be paying for this endorsement on Dash 8. Suggested they rethink their policy, or go without pilots. If everyone else who received the email from them replies in a similar fashion maybe they will rethink it when they run short of crew? Or not as may be. Some silvertails will stuff it for everyone else, regardless of their lack of skill as pilots. But I won't stand for it anymore. Stuff em! Earning more in GA (Classified) than airlines as FO ($38k and paying up to 18K for Dash 8 endo AND have to live in expensive Sydney), where is the incentive anymore?
Not Happy Jan!
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Captain Mark Davey, Flight Operations Manager and Chief Pilot, Eastern Australia Airlines Pty Ltd
Captain Don Anderson, Flight Operations Manager and Chief Pilot, Sunstate Airlines (Qld) Pty Ltd
Well, gentlemen, whatever integrity and standing you had in the industry up to this week, is now gone.
The only thing you will be remembered for in Australian aviation now, is that you were the first to put their names at the top of an infamous list.
If you are AFAP members, tender your resignations . You are no longer welcome.
Captain Don Anderson, Flight Operations Manager and Chief Pilot, Sunstate Airlines (Qld) Pty Ltd
Well, gentlemen, whatever integrity and standing you had in the industry up to this week, is now gone.
The only thing you will be remembered for in Australian aviation now, is that you were the first to put their names at the top of an infamous list.
If you are AFAP members, tender your resignations . You are no longer welcome.
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IBEX just to correct you; the “rot” actually started with Impluse and the 8K the guys paid for a 1900 rating so they could live on 28K pa in Sydney. These monkeys still lead the way as the lowest paid 320 drivers outside Eastern Europe. Not defending VB in anyway, but at least the guys there get paid 15K pa in recognition that they funded their own training.
Sadly what many of you have alluded to, is that it would now be a more financially prudent move to become a bus driver. You don’t have to pay for rating and I would guess over a career you would probably now earn more.
When I learnt to fly there were 3 airlines here TAA, AN and QF. A pilot was a respected career and reward appropriately. Besides the love of aircraft I suspect this was a factor for many of use going ahead with this career instead of another, and as a result a lot of people were training back in the 80,90’s, there was an over supply. Conditions erroded and here we are. What about now? I recently went to YBAF and the only people training were Koreans airline cadets. Have the kids woken up that its better to pursue another profession? Makes you wonder where this is going to lead us.
Sadly what many of you have alluded to, is that it would now be a more financially prudent move to become a bus driver. You don’t have to pay for rating and I would guess over a career you would probably now earn more.
When I learnt to fly there were 3 airlines here TAA, AN and QF. A pilot was a respected career and reward appropriately. Besides the love of aircraft I suspect this was a factor for many of use going ahead with this career instead of another, and as a result a lot of people were training back in the 80,90’s, there was an over supply. Conditions erroded and here we are. What about now? I recently went to YBAF and the only people training were Koreans airline cadets. Have the kids woken up that its better to pursue another profession? Makes you wonder where this is going to lead us.
Hi all,
Another new low in Oz aviation. Interesting to see if people vote with their feet or put up with this crap.
Oz2
Another new low in Oz aviation. Interesting to see if people vote with their feet or put up with this crap.
Oz2
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Having started a number threads in the past about the 'pay for your rating' extortion carried out by low life companies I find it amusing to see a distinct absence now of those ppruner's who defended it.. perhaps they were trying to justify to themselves their actions in forking out 30K or so simply to stay in the game.
ITCZ has put some less than subtle pressure on the Chief Pilots of Eastern's & Sunstate but in their defense perhaps they are just pawns on the chessboard having being given a shyte job to do. I suspect this action taken by Qlink is just a sampler put out by QF mainline to test the water.
QF application form of the future..
Are you minted?
Would your parrents object to a 2nd mortgage whilst they subsidise our training costs?
School grades not important, flying skill irrelevant.
Enough said.
Shaggy
ITCZ has put some less than subtle pressure on the Chief Pilots of Eastern's & Sunstate but in their defense perhaps they are just pawns on the chessboard having being given a shyte job to do. I suspect this action taken by Qlink is just a sampler put out by QF mainline to test the water.
QF application form of the future..
Are you minted?
Would your parrents object to a 2nd mortgage whilst they subsidise our training costs?
School grades not important, flying skill irrelevant.
Enough said.
Shaggy
Sprucegoose
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Heard a rumour that:
QF will play Eastern and Sunstate of against each other, to see who will crew the Q-400 for the lowest prce?
It doesn't sound good...
Cheers, HH.
QF will play Eastern and Sunstate of against each other, to see who will crew the Q-400 for the lowest prce?
It doesn't sound good...
Cheers, HH.
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Here's a tip for both the Eastern's & Sunstate boys and girls.. bid the highest price in order to fly the Q400.
Why, because it is a heap of junk and you will be asked to pay for your upgrades no doubt. Simm slots on the 3 Q400 simm's are pretty tight so you'll have to pay mega bucks to go to Sweden if that is the only simm going at the time.
May be a new toy on the horizon but don't get too excited.
Food for thought.
Shaggy
Why, because it is a heap of junk and you will be asked to pay for your upgrades no doubt. Simm slots on the 3 Q400 simm's are pretty tight so you'll have to pay mega bucks to go to Sweden if that is the only simm going at the time.
May be a new toy on the horizon but don't get too excited.
Food for thought.
Shaggy
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RALF
That was funnier than hell...thanks.
I am sure you have all read 'Warning of skills shortage crisis' in fridays Australian. In this artical newly formed industry Group AUSAC (Australian Aviation Council) had the audacity to accuse the government for 'lacking a trategic aviation policy' to deal with the skills shortages including pilots.
Here is a copy of my letter to the editor, I suggest that everyone here does their level best to air their views in the press.
"Dear Sir
According to CASA’s ‘rough guide’ the average pilot will spend $60,600 just to pass the tests for all their licenses and ratings up to the level of a commercial pilot. Beyond that they still have to attain the highest level of civilian aircraft license, the Air Transport Pilot License which, will require them to fly an additional 1250 hours more than they already had at the commercial level, if they want to fly for the airlines. How they get those hours is up to them and most often those scarce few, lucky enough to have the tens of thousands more it costs to get the myriad of instructor ratings will auction themselves off to whatever flight school they can simply to fly these extra 1250 hours for the privilege of not writing a cheque for between $150 and $350 per flight hour.
All said and done the very lucky get to spend the better part of $100,000 for their training and will still have an uphill battle to secure one of the few low paid flying jobs available in Australia. With Virgin, Jetstar and since yesterday, Qantaslink now asking for applicants to pay for their company required training on a 737 or Airbus A320 (Both $30,000+) its no wonder the number of licensed pilots has dropped by 2001 since 2001. The industry is asking its workforce to spend on its own education, in excess of $100,000 for a $45,000 job in the case of Qantaslink and for not much more remuneration in the cases of Virgin and Jetstar. Baring all this there are still 30,390 licensed pilots in Australia and AUSAC (‘Warning of skills shortage crisis’ 01/04/05) is accusing the federal government of ‘lacking a strategic aviation policy’ to avert the pending pilot shortage that the airlines are doing their level best to create. There never has been a pilot shortage and there never will be. The airlines are now actively driving them out of the country to greener pastures."
MJB
I am sure you have all read 'Warning of skills shortage crisis' in fridays Australian. In this artical newly formed industry Group AUSAC (Australian Aviation Council) had the audacity to accuse the government for 'lacking a trategic aviation policy' to deal with the skills shortages including pilots.
Here is a copy of my letter to the editor, I suggest that everyone here does their level best to air their views in the press.
"Dear Sir
According to CASA’s ‘rough guide’ the average pilot will spend $60,600 just to pass the tests for all their licenses and ratings up to the level of a commercial pilot. Beyond that they still have to attain the highest level of civilian aircraft license, the Air Transport Pilot License which, will require them to fly an additional 1250 hours more than they already had at the commercial level, if they want to fly for the airlines. How they get those hours is up to them and most often those scarce few, lucky enough to have the tens of thousands more it costs to get the myriad of instructor ratings will auction themselves off to whatever flight school they can simply to fly these extra 1250 hours for the privilege of not writing a cheque for between $150 and $350 per flight hour.
All said and done the very lucky get to spend the better part of $100,000 for their training and will still have an uphill battle to secure one of the few low paid flying jobs available in Australia. With Virgin, Jetstar and since yesterday, Qantaslink now asking for applicants to pay for their company required training on a 737 or Airbus A320 (Both $30,000+) its no wonder the number of licensed pilots has dropped by 2001 since 2001. The industry is asking its workforce to spend on its own education, in excess of $100,000 for a $45,000 job in the case of Qantaslink and for not much more remuneration in the cases of Virgin and Jetstar. Baring all this there are still 30,390 licensed pilots in Australia and AUSAC (‘Warning of skills shortage crisis’ 01/04/05) is accusing the federal government of ‘lacking a strategic aviation policy’ to avert the pending pilot shortage that the airlines are doing their level best to create. There never has been a pilot shortage and there never will be. The airlines are now actively driving them out of the country to greener pastures."
MJB
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Hey .ITCZ
Don't except Don Anderson or Mark Davey to resign any day soon from the AFAP if they are members. After all they have just done a nice cosy little deal.
Only 3/4 weeks ago all the pilots received letter stating that they "Mark and Don" and Qantaslink would do all they could to help the AFAP against any involvement from AIPA into the group.
Now we start to see the cost of this lubed up little deal. AFAP's response to the pay for endorsements "bit of bad luck huh"
l for one am a member of the AFAP but in the future if we have to be in the AIPA then so be it.
All l ask it that for the union that I'm in, is to fight for me and the members.
Grow some balls AFAP or your demise will be your own fault
Don't except Don Anderson or Mark Davey to resign any day soon from the AFAP if they are members. After all they have just done a nice cosy little deal.
Only 3/4 weeks ago all the pilots received letter stating that they "Mark and Don" and Qantaslink would do all they could to help the AFAP against any involvement from AIPA into the group.
Now we start to see the cost of this lubed up little deal. AFAP's response to the pay for endorsements "bit of bad luck huh"
l for one am a member of the AFAP but in the future if we have to be in the AIPA then so be it.
All l ask it that for the union that I'm in, is to fight for me and the members.
Grow some balls AFAP or your demise will be your own fault
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The sad thing is that if their not enough applicants i.e. 'Shortage of skilled workers' they will probably just bring in guys from overseas who have the qualifications already!! I mentioned this in another post somewhere...About qualified applicants from overseas!!!
Very very disturbing.....
What a mess!!
Very very disturbing.....
What a mess!!
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MJB not defending VB at all, but I wouldn’t put it in the same boat as Jet*. As I said before at least VB pay their guys 15Kpa in recognition of paying for their training in addition a base at least 20K pa more then the monkeys at Jet*. Overall they pay at VB is still crap, but comparing it to Jet*'s 
conditions and 100 hours plus a month is a bit rich.
Just to clarify I think forcing people to buy a rating is a disgraceful practiced and should be illegal. Where does it stop, why not force bus drivers to pay for their training? After all considering the 100K plus and years of lost income becoming an airline pilot it would seem they now earn more. I really think the government should make the practice of employers forcing new employees to pay for training cost outlawed.
conditions and 100 hours plus a month is a bit rich.Just to clarify I think forcing people to buy a rating is a disgraceful practiced and should be illegal. Where does it stop, why not force bus drivers to pay for their training? After all considering the 100K plus and years of lost income becoming an airline pilot it would seem they now earn more. I really think the government should make the practice of employers forcing new employees to pay for training cost outlawed.