lame moral at qantas
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As a second year AME apprentice with this mob, we've been told all sorts of stories by everyone.
One story is that we are on $60K once we finish our time, and $95K as a first year LAME. Is this remotely true? Whats the real deal??
Should we be looking forward to a long and satisfying career with this company?
One story is that we are on $60K once we finish our time, and $95K as a first year LAME. Is this remotely true? Whats the real deal??
Should we be looking forward to a long and satisfying career with this company?
Join Date: Aug 2003
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I too am concerned with the health of BD, as much as this is a business and we are on separate sides during an EBA, no one should be subjected to the physical suffering associated with stress.
Wishing you a speedy recovery and looking forward to welcoming you back into the fight.
Wishing you a speedy recovery and looking forward to welcoming you back into the fight.
Join Date: Feb 2005
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I really feel for all the apprentices currently at QF. No one knows where all this is going to end up least of all QF management.
I have a feeling that they are more likely to keep you guys when you finish your apprenticeship you will be cheaper than LAMES to employ.
However I don't want to give false expectations because they have sacked whole intakes in the past on more than 1 occassion.
Training is going to be very hard to come by as they want to increase the percentage of AMEs to LAMES.
I don't know what a 1st year AME would get(probably around 35K before shift penalties) but a single licence LAME would get around 52k base which would be a max 70k if you worked a 24/7 shift.
As for having a long and satisfying career......???? Pay and conditions are continually being eroded for all airline staff.(the same is happening to pilots and flight attendants).
My only advice is to work hard and gain as many skills and accreditations as QF can give you. Keep your options open.
I have a feeling that they are more likely to keep you guys when you finish your apprenticeship you will be cheaper than LAMES to employ.
However I don't want to give false expectations because they have sacked whole intakes in the past on more than 1 occassion.
Training is going to be very hard to come by as they want to increase the percentage of AMEs to LAMES.
I don't know what a 1st year AME would get(probably around 35K before shift penalties) but a single licence LAME would get around 52k base which would be a max 70k if you worked a 24/7 shift.
As for having a long and satisfying career......???? Pay and conditions are continually being eroded for all airline staff.(the same is happening to pilots and flight attendants).
My only advice is to work hard and gain as many skills and accreditations as QF can give you. Keep your options open.
Join Date: Feb 2005
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a couple of points i would like to bring up
1. to mr cognito the rule's for lame's are controlled by casa .
this country won't allow you to have one lame certifying for 15 ame's -although avalon heavy maint appears to be an exception.
if you would like to be a career ame then go for it.
2. to apprentice's that think they are walking into a 100k a year job. you better get your head checked.
from what i know some of you would be lucky to be kept on as ame's .
it is not a job for life anymore -the few that stay on will do their basic's then pay for a type course.the company will not pay you for it as they want control of training .
you might be offered a position in bne heavy on the poor work conditions up there were as a ame you will earn 40k to 50k a year if your lucky. and if you are lucky enough to grab a licence you will earn 50k to 65k per year as level 3 lame going nowhere real fast.
some others might be lucky to get to domestic on permanant nightshift as an ame ,there they can do/pay for a type course and the company might or might not pay you for it. as an ame there you might earn 50-60k per year because of the shift loading. as a level 3 entry lame you might earn 70-75k not a lot of money for some one trying to live in sydney with a family maybe.
so my advice to apprentice's comming out of there time,- pay for as many type course's as possible and leave and go work for virginblue/jet care - there they pay you 98k per year to hold one type or work oversea's as contractor or leave the industry while your still young enough thank your self lucky while your still young.
chose a new carreer maybe --how about merchant banking-they make about 100k per year if that's what you want.
1. to mr cognito the rule's for lame's are controlled by casa .
this country won't allow you to have one lame certifying for 15 ame's -although avalon heavy maint appears to be an exception.
if you would like to be a career ame then go for it.
2. to apprentice's that think they are walking into a 100k a year job. you better get your head checked.
from what i know some of you would be lucky to be kept on as ame's .
it is not a job for life anymore -the few that stay on will do their basic's then pay for a type course.the company will not pay you for it as they want control of training .
you might be offered a position in bne heavy on the poor work conditions up there were as a ame you will earn 40k to 50k a year if your lucky. and if you are lucky enough to grab a licence you will earn 50k to 65k per year as level 3 lame going nowhere real fast.
some others might be lucky to get to domestic on permanant nightshift as an ame ,there they can do/pay for a type course and the company might or might not pay you for it. as an ame there you might earn 50-60k per year because of the shift loading. as a level 3 entry lame you might earn 70-75k not a lot of money for some one trying to live in sydney with a family maybe.
so my advice to apprentice's comming out of there time,- pay for as many type course's as possible and leave and go work for virginblue/jet care - there they pay you 98k per year to hold one type or work oversea's as contractor or leave the industry while your still young enough thank your self lucky while your still young.
chose a new carreer maybe --how about merchant banking-they make about 100k per year if that's what you want.
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lames
rule's for lame's are controlled by casa .
this country won't allow you to have one lame certifying for 15 ame's -although avalon heavy maint appears to be an exception.
it does not appear that this goes on it is a fact it does as for rules controlled by casa give me a break QF just does what they like at avalon sorry to say but this has become common place at avalon.
this country won't allow you to have one lame certifying for 15 ame's -although avalon heavy maint appears to be an exception.
it does not appear that this goes on it is a fact it does as for rules controlled by casa give me a break QF just does what they like at avalon sorry to say but this has become common place at avalon.
go work for virginblue/jet care - there they pay you 98k per year to hold one type
I've tried to figure out the QF rates several times but the EBAs are such a dog's breakfast it's impossible to figure out what's going on. Shift penalties in one document, pay rates in another, how you qualify for each grade in yet another.
My base rate in a QF regional is $62k for EIR, Mech guy's base is $53k.
The way you make money in aviation is shiftwork, guys in Eastern run around the 42% average penalty mark so Avionics guys are on $88k and Mech on about $74k, both plus O/T which can be as little or as much as you want. Southern guys are averaging about 38% penalties in Melbourne and 48% in Mildura (4on 4off perm niteshift there).
Bottom line is you work shiftwork you get the cash, you work heavy you get a life, you don't get both in this game.
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Don't get me wrong,I don't condone 1 LAME crews but I can see this is where Q is heading.My point being the Q LAME has to regain their power and rights and justify high earnings to their employer,most Euro LAME's earn far more remuneration and respect than their counterparts in OZ because AME's are kept as mechanics, not let loose with inspection/functional cards with little or no knowledge on type.It is far safer and cheaper to have a LAME do the inspections etc. over an inexperienced AME immigrant in a Forstaff boiler suit and your right,we all know what's happening in AVV but nothing is being done about it ,seems standards have been allowed to slip over the years.
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qantas avalon
i agree with the above one has to wonder what the hell casa does re avalon to date it would seem nothing if you can,t read a job card how the hell can you sign for it but then we have a lame sign the job off without even looking at the finished product ?
Join Date: Jan 2005
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A few facts people may or may not be aware of.
Like it or not QANTAS runs CASA, not the other way around. 'QANTAS have the political support and the money to fight anything we would object to in their procedures'.
QANTAS does not invest in Australia unless its in their best interest. With around 50% of ther AVV workforce on 2 year working VISA's, QF can reduce training in both apprentices and LAME's.
On the AVV issue, constant threats of sending work overseas and shutting down Avalon are purely scare tactics. As I said, they dont keep it running out of the kindness in their hearts.
The lack of training justifies QF arguement of less Licenced Engineer involvement in maintenance, crying poor and saying 'We just cant seem to get skilled labor'. Pretty realistic arguement when you dont train.
Licenced Engineers have a large target painted on them at the moment. We cost money due to the professional nature of our work, our job function of finding defects (and costing money to fix them), and 24/7 shift work required to keep our fleet in service.
On that a Grade 3 LAME at QF receives just over $50,000 pa base rate. Not much pay for all that responsibility. I know of Cleaners and Baggage staff who earn more than Heavy Maintenance LAME's including penalties etc.
Wonder why morale is so low.
Maintain the Rage.
Like it or not QANTAS runs CASA, not the other way around. 'QANTAS have the political support and the money to fight anything we would object to in their procedures'.
QANTAS does not invest in Australia unless its in their best interest. With around 50% of ther AVV workforce on 2 year working VISA's, QF can reduce training in both apprentices and LAME's.
On the AVV issue, constant threats of sending work overseas and shutting down Avalon are purely scare tactics. As I said, they dont keep it running out of the kindness in their hearts.
The lack of training justifies QF arguement of less Licenced Engineer involvement in maintenance, crying poor and saying 'We just cant seem to get skilled labor'. Pretty realistic arguement when you dont train.
Licenced Engineers have a large target painted on them at the moment. We cost money due to the professional nature of our work, our job function of finding defects (and costing money to fix them), and 24/7 shift work required to keep our fleet in service.
On that a Grade 3 LAME at QF receives just over $50,000 pa base rate. Not much pay for all that responsibility. I know of Cleaners and Baggage staff who earn more than Heavy Maintenance LAME's including penalties etc.
Wonder why morale is so low.
Maintain the Rage.
Join Date: Feb 2005
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lets get things in perspective a qf lv3 lame at domestic on permanent night shift is on 70 k per year including shift penalites with no overtime signing for one type .
a jetcare/virgin blue lame is on 94k- to 98k with shift penalites no overtime,signing for one type, now i hold a 738 and i'd like to see that type of money.
a jetcare/virgin blue lame is on 94k- to 98k with shift penalites no overtime,signing for one type, now i hold a 738 and i'd like to see that type of money.
Last edited by the lost one; 25th Mar 2005 at 11:12.
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I can only assume that pay rates for LAMEs within QANTAS are determined via collective bargaining; therefore it is reasonable to assume that they are generally a matter of public knowledge. What is a LAME worth to QANTAS? There seems to be some disparity within this posts on this topic.
Apologies, but I'm just genuinely curious.
cheers
Apologies, but I'm just genuinely curious.
cheers
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rate per week
level effective first pay
period on or after
1 January 2004
1 $844.50
2 $934.80
3 $965.00
4 $1037.40
5 $1,109.90
6 $1,182.20
7 $1,254.40
8 $1,326.90
9 $1,399.40
10 $1,471.50
11 $1,544.20
12 $1,616.80
13 $1,689.40 (1 July 2004)
Levels based on 4 years experience or one level for each full dual category held. (only for types operated by Qantas)
So as you can see to qualify for a reasonable salary you have to have achieved many licenses or years of experience, unfortunately there are many engineers who have only one or two ratings. Those that have been around for many years with a few type ratings are the ones the company is trying to piss off. They prefer the one legged engineer who doesn't cost much.
level effective first pay
period on or after
1 January 2004
1 $844.50
2 $934.80
3 $965.00
4 $1037.40
5 $1,109.90
6 $1,182.20
7 $1,254.40
8 $1,326.90
9 $1,399.40
10 $1,471.50
11 $1,544.20
12 $1,616.80
13 $1,689.40 (1 July 2004)
Levels based on 4 years experience or one level for each full dual category held. (only for types operated by Qantas)
So as you can see to qualify for a reasonable salary you have to have achieved many licenses or years of experience, unfortunately there are many engineers who have only one or two ratings. Those that have been around for many years with a few type ratings are the ones the company is trying to piss off. They prefer the one legged engineer who doesn't cost much.
Join Date: Feb 2005
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i agree with the above --the mulit licensed high level lame's at line maintenance are the reason's why the company thinks lame's are so expensive- but what they fail to understand is their grading system is all ready taking effect. most lame's ,young guy's comming through will only gain one to two type rating's in the future -then they will only go up on service point's it will be a long and slow process.
lv4 and lv5 will make up the majority of lame's at qf in the future -with snr lame's and acting sr lame's holding every type and remaining at top.
regards
tlo
lv4 and lv5 will make up the majority of lame's at qf in the future -with snr lame's and acting sr lame's holding every type and remaining at top.
regards
tlo
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Financial remuneration for a days work may be one contributing factor to the lack of morale we're seeing at the moment, but its not the only issue getting LAME's offside.
Lack of training generally speaking for many is of concern. Dont worry about your type courses and such. Try basic computer training. The computer systems in place are now a integral part to the way Engineers carry out their daily duties. Have you ever been trained how to use your internal email? Not so bad for the younger guys, but with an average LAME age of around 50, there are many frustrated individuals out there.
Lack of manpower. Try getting leave these days. We all get the letters 'You have over 500 hours annual leave' but try taking some. 'Sorry we dont have the licence coverage/manpower'.
Constant threats to jobs and aviation safety standards. We have all been bought up to understand the difference between maintenance on a car and an aircraft. Unfortunately our management havent had the same oppurtunity. 'You just park the aircraft overnight and in the morning you just turn the key and she starts!'. Frustration has set in with the numerous attacks on job security and tighter schedules forcing LAME's ,at times, to cut corners.
Finally the last EBA offer to QF LAME's was basically a slap in the face. Dont worry about the money. There was not one item in that offer that was even considerable, and showed the true contempt management holds for its workers.
Maintain the rage.
Lack of training generally speaking for many is of concern. Dont worry about your type courses and such. Try basic computer training. The computer systems in place are now a integral part to the way Engineers carry out their daily duties. Have you ever been trained how to use your internal email? Not so bad for the younger guys, but with an average LAME age of around 50, there are many frustrated individuals out there.
Lack of manpower. Try getting leave these days. We all get the letters 'You have over 500 hours annual leave' but try taking some. 'Sorry we dont have the licence coverage/manpower'.
Constant threats to jobs and aviation safety standards. We have all been bought up to understand the difference between maintenance on a car and an aircraft. Unfortunately our management havent had the same oppurtunity. 'You just park the aircraft overnight and in the morning you just turn the key and she starts!'. Frustration has set in with the numerous attacks on job security and tighter schedules forcing LAME's ,at times, to cut corners.
Finally the last EBA offer to QF LAME's was basically a slap in the face. Dont worry about the money. There was not one item in that offer that was even considerable, and showed the true contempt management holds for its workers.
Maintain the rage.
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What is a good wage
A standard monday to friday 40 hour week in any job isnt that good in the wallet department.
Australia is short of tradesmen etc at the moment and especially in the mining industries.They can make well over 100 grand a year,but in the end their base is still only in the 50-60 grand mark.
The rest is made up of working 2 weeks straight(sometimes more--up to 6 weeks) doing 12 hour shift work out in the bush in the dust and heat.Then old Johnny takes half.
Pay more overseas----expensive countries yes--dont think i would want 50g base living in switzland,but working for garuda i would be laughing.
Then again Sydney not to cheap.I know an over 21 apprentice AME who loves it but after paying $280 a week for a house,cant really lash out on things--------but then again ,who really can what ever job you have.
Not sure but i think consumer price index hasnt risen much in the last few years and that tends to keep pay increases down.
I look through the daily job adds and im astounded at some wages even in the IT game.No where near where i thought they were so im quite happy to stay where i am----im not with an airline though.
For the record------my base is 56g after 28 years service
A standard monday to friday 40 hour week in any job isnt that good in the wallet department.
Australia is short of tradesmen etc at the moment and especially in the mining industries.They can make well over 100 grand a year,but in the end their base is still only in the 50-60 grand mark.
The rest is made up of working 2 weeks straight(sometimes more--up to 6 weeks) doing 12 hour shift work out in the bush in the dust and heat.Then old Johnny takes half.
Pay more overseas----expensive countries yes--dont think i would want 50g base living in switzland,but working for garuda i would be laughing.
Then again Sydney not to cheap.I know an over 21 apprentice AME who loves it but after paying $280 a week for a house,cant really lash out on things--------but then again ,who really can what ever job you have.
Not sure but i think consumer price index hasnt risen much in the last few years and that tends to keep pay increases down.
I look through the daily job adds and im astounded at some wages even in the IT game.No where near where i thought they were so im quite happy to stay where i am----im not with an airline though.
For the record------my base is 56g after 28 years service
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I completed my apprenticeship in the early 90's and over 90% of our year was told that we were surplus to requirements. Back then we were told we could apply for jobs within the company and miraculously job were found on the ramp, in res and at catering for those that wanted to stay in the company.
Maybe about 15-20 people in that year found jobs in other areas and only 2 or 3 of them have found their way back to enginnering. I liked working in Engineering but fortunatly for me I found the grass greener outside E&M.
I still work in an area where my skills can play a very minor role but I would most likely without OT still earn more than most AME's at the base or in the workshops.
So I guess I am saying that there are skilled people out there as there was about 80-90 people in my year, but no one is going to come back to QF to work for peanuts.
As Son Of Brake Boy Says:
Maintain the rage
Also for the record I am in a position that is no where near as hard as a 4 year apprenticeship, it was probably 6 weeks training and the salary is about 50k plus approx 28-30% shift penalties.
Maybe about 15-20 people in that year found jobs in other areas and only 2 or 3 of them have found their way back to enginnering. I liked working in Engineering but fortunatly for me I found the grass greener outside E&M.
I still work in an area where my skills can play a very minor role but I would most likely without OT still earn more than most AME's at the base or in the workshops.
So I guess I am saying that there are skilled people out there as there was about 80-90 people in my year, but no one is going to come back to QF to work for peanuts.
As Son Of Brake Boy Says:
Maintain the rage
Also for the record I am in a position that is no where near as hard as a 4 year apprenticeship, it was probably 6 weeks training and the salary is about 50k plus approx 28-30% shift penalties.
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Given the changing face of employer/employee relationships in Australia (i.e. the things that young people expect, and to be honest demand from an employer) is part of the problem the heavily regulated nature of being a LAME. I'm not talking about deskilling the industry, but does a young up and comer need to demonstrate detailed knowledge of an aircraft and systems that they will never work on?
The average LAME age clearly shows the degree of intrest that the present and future generations have in the industy.
The average LAME age clearly shows the degree of intrest that the present and future generations have in the industy.
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Point0Five
I dont believe the average LAME age represents the interest that present and future generations have in the industry. I believe the average age is reflective of industry's support of the next generation of AME's.
Deskilling isnt what we're talking about, I do agree with you there. Getting maximum return for minimum pay is the objective, particular in the larger companies who can afford it more so than small business. In QANTAS Sydney Heavy Maintenance, I have worked with some of the most skilled and experienced AME I've ever come across. QANTAS management refuses to train them to become Licenced as they will then recieve higher pay.
Supply and demand is definately a driving force in the current level of training carried out. The less LAME's QF have, the better their arguement for using less skilled labor. Ideally for the safety and convenience of travelling public, a company would ensure the highest level of skilled labor maintaining their aircraft....but who ever said this was about the travelling public.
I dont believe the average LAME age represents the interest that present and future generations have in the industry. I believe the average age is reflective of industry's support of the next generation of AME's.
Deskilling isnt what we're talking about, I do agree with you there. Getting maximum return for minimum pay is the objective, particular in the larger companies who can afford it more so than small business. In QANTAS Sydney Heavy Maintenance, I have worked with some of the most skilled and experienced AME I've ever come across. QANTAS management refuses to train them to become Licenced as they will then recieve higher pay.
Supply and demand is definately a driving force in the current level of training carried out. The less LAME's QF have, the better their arguement for using less skilled labor. Ideally for the safety and convenience of travelling public, a company would ensure the highest level of skilled labor maintaining their aircraft....but who ever said this was about the travelling public.
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the company went through the 80's and early 90's not training and paying lame's peanut's,the smart one's left and went to singapore,mas etc etc --what did the company do --hey they went oversea's and recruited-so much for developing home grown talent --will just sack apprentice's comming through their time.
the company has a track history of industrial action against its maintenance staff
the company has a track history of industrial action against its maintenance staff
Last edited by the lost one; 26th Mar 2005 at 20:13.