Erebus 25 years on
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Exactly!
Throughout this whole thread, Desert Dingo has displayed the the careful reasoning of man in charge of a (super-sized) DC-10. He would, I'm sure, have attended briefings that were a complete f*ck-up, perhaps even approaching the level of the Erebus f*ck-up. But given that he was being paid twice as much as the Prime Minister, I'm sure he would have regarded it has his job to be on the lookout for f8ckups and to make sure that the pax didn't suffer.
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The Minimum clean speed was 252.5 knots
Absolute bull**** and claptrap. Sorry to be so in your face, but the statement is both egregious and libellous. If I were an aggrieved party I'd be seeing you in court for purporting that they were operating at 700 feet. There is enough about the accident to occupy the minds of all, and matters to debate, without making bald assertions that cannot be backed by a singular shred of evidence. Put up or shut up.
Rant over.
they were flying 260 knots at 700 feet
Rant over.
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Brian, I'm hoping it wasn't my comments you were referring to. I thought I'd caved in, to your well-reasoned articles on VMC descent and sector whiteout. It's Greybeard in CA, USA, who has the inside info on the 700 ft.
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From Greybeard, earlier post.
"The copies were then installed into an NCU and the system powered up. Amazingly, the modules revealed the whole last half hour of the flight; the (31,000?) cruise altitude, the race track while descending, the 260 knots at 700 feet over the ocean, the latitude and longitude..."
It would appear that Greybeard may be privy to information that the rest of us are not. This is of course quite possible. We have had to read many times how the crew trusted the AINS with their lives it was so accurate. Surely that accuracy may also have shown information that was given to certain parties but was not made public, as Greybeard has stated.
"Absolute bull**** and claptrap."
This statement may also be correct, but how do you prove it???.
"The copies were then installed into an NCU and the system powered up. Amazingly, the modules revealed the whole last half hour of the flight; the (31,000?) cruise altitude, the race track while descending, the 260 knots at 700 feet over the ocean, the latitude and longitude..."
It would appear that Greybeard may be privy to information that the rest of us are not. This is of course quite possible. We have had to read many times how the crew trusted the AINS with their lives it was so accurate. Surely that accuracy may also have shown information that was given to certain parties but was not made public, as Greybeard has stated.
"Absolute bull**** and claptrap."
This statement may also be correct, but how do you prove it???.
Last edited by prospector; 6th Mar 2008 at 06:12.
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Collins & Litton
Where does the 'black box' get its altitude data from? Is it from the AINS, or is it from the aircraft's ground radar? If the latter, where is that information stored? (Note that this was one of the few accidents where the NCU was recovered in an undamaged state.)
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The impact point was 1467ft, or very close to that number, how long to get from 700ft to 1460ft when Go Round power is applied and the nose is raised?? I dont know but I would think very little time, at that speed raising the nose must transfer speed to height gained very rapidly. Is it not possible that the figures given by Greybeard could be correct???
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I can't believe that he would have gone to 700 ft deliberately.
But on the other hand, he started the go-around procedure - and still ended up hitting Eerbus below 1500?
But on the other hand, he started the go-around procedure - and still ended up hitting Eerbus below 1500?
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From Chippendale's report. My bolding.
The vertical acceleration trace (sampled 8 times per second) reached a maximum value of 1.67 G 2 seconds before impact. This is associated with a pitch up of the aircraft some 2.5 seconds before impact from a level flight attitude of 5° nose up to a maximum of 10.9° nose up. No change in altitude is recorded as a result of this pitch up although the NSU memory module recorded a plus 10 fps acceleration at impact.
The aircraft had barely commenced to respond to the avoidance manoeuvres and power application prior to impact.
Put the 700 foot nonsense to bed. Do you really think that Chippendale, and more importantly, the airline, would not have made much of this fact, if true, to support the case of "pilot error".
The vertical acceleration trace (sampled 8 times per second) reached a maximum value of 1.67 G 2 seconds before impact. This is associated with a pitch up of the aircraft some 2.5 seconds before impact from a level flight attitude of 5° nose up to a maximum of 10.9° nose up. No change in altitude is recorded as a result of this pitch up although the NSU memory module recorded a plus 10 fps acceleration at impact.
The aircraft had barely commenced to respond to the avoidance manoeuvres and power application prior to impact.
Put the 700 foot nonsense to bed. Do you really think that Chippendale, and more importantly, the airline, would not have made much of this fact, if true, to support the case of "pilot error".
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No Name Calling, Please.
The DFDR would have recorded from the #1 DADC, pressure altitude, but maybe with QNH as well. I believe the DFDR in the KSSU DC-10 fleet had over 100 paramters, although only about 7 were required back then.
Whether they were at 1500 feet, or 700 feet in the last minute makes not a lot of difference, I believe, but for the exercise, we can do the math:
How long from the GPWS warn to impact? What would be the average rate of climb to climb the 765 feet to first point of impact? The plane was nose up when they hit. If it were nose level at impact, the NCU in the forward nose could not have survived at all.
There was a 300 foot cliff at the water's edge, and then an upslope of about 13 degrees, IIRC. The radio altimeter would not have locked onto the cliff until it was less than the altitude straight down from the antennas on the belly, so the cliff could be considered the point on the ground at which the GPWS sounded.
The GPWS logic for warning was: descending below 700 feet radio altitude and not in landing configuration. There was another warn envelope penetrated, but I don't remember what it was.
GB
Whether they were at 1500 feet, or 700 feet in the last minute makes not a lot of difference, I believe, but for the exercise, we can do the math:
How long from the GPWS warn to impact? What would be the average rate of climb to climb the 765 feet to first point of impact? The plane was nose up when they hit. If it were nose level at impact, the NCU in the forward nose could not have survived at all.
There was a 300 foot cliff at the water's edge, and then an upslope of about 13 degrees, IIRC. The radio altimeter would not have locked onto the cliff until it was less than the altitude straight down from the antennas on the belly, so the cliff could be considered the point on the ground at which the GPWS sounded.
The GPWS logic for warning was: descending below 700 feet radio altitude and not in landing configuration. There was another warn envelope penetrated, but I don't remember what it was.
GB
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Completely blameless?
Of course not. Yet of the recent participants in this thread, only two will say so. It's as if the Erebus accident has become a sort of shrine for down-under pilots - some sort of sacred mythical tale about how terrible the boss is.
I ask you 1979 big jet captains out there the following question: (1) How much were you being paid in 1979? (2) What was the average wage in your country in 1979? (3) Were you worth it?
I ask you 1979 big jet captains out there the following question: (1) How much were you being paid in 1979? (2) What was the average wage in your country in 1979? (3) Were you worth it?
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All from Chippendales report.
6.5 seconds
The average radio altitude rate of descent as the aircraft flew towards the slope was 6,300 feet per minute. The GPWS warning commenced in the half second between radio altitude sampling of 637 and 583 feet.
Sorry Graybeard, but it does make a lot of difference, because you are impuning the memory of good people by making the suggestion you are. These sort of assertions pass into mythology and are quoted as fact. I suggest your 700 feet stems from the "The GPWS warning commenced in the half second between radio altitude sampling of 637 and 583 feet." For those who may not grasp the significance, the aircraft was flying level at 1,500 feet and the 6,300 feet per minute rate of descent was due to the slope of the rising ground into which the aircraft was flying. The 700 feet Graybeard refers to would be the radio altitude (above the rising slope, not the height above sea level) at which the GPWS issued a warning (in fact between 637 and 583 feet). Graybeard appears to be confusing AGL and AMSL.
How long from the GPWS warn to impact?
The average radio altitude rate of descent as the aircraft flew towards the slope was 6,300 feet per minute. The GPWS warning commenced in the half second between radio altitude sampling of 637 and 583 feet.
Whether they were at 1500 feet, or 700 feet in the last minute makes not a lot of difference
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700 feet continued.
Folks, we are talking about two different things here.
Greybeard in #435 is talking about the Collins Ground Proximity Warning Computer and a Navigation Computer Unit. The technical people performed some magic and managed to recover some information from the wrecked units.
Greybeard does not provide any supporting evidence that the recovered final altitude was 700 feet. In fact he can’t even get the cruising altitude right. (it was actually FL330 – Chippindale Annex D)
Yeah, I reckon that is pretty amazing too for something that was not designed to be a flight data recorder..
Now Chippindale refers to the DFDR
1.11.3
This bit of kit was designed for the job and was recovered intact. It showed the aircraft flew at 1500 feet straight into the mountain. The wreckage was found at 1500 feet.
So which altitude do you think may be correct?
Greybeard in #435 is talking about the Collins Ground Proximity Warning Computer and a Navigation Computer Unit. The technical people performed some magic and managed to recover some information from the wrecked units.
Greybeard does not provide any supporting evidence that the recovered final altitude was 700 feet. In fact he can’t even get the cruising altitude right. (it was actually FL330 – Chippindale Annex D)
Amazingly, the modules revealed the whole last half hour of the flight; the (31,000?) cruise altitude, the race track while descending, the 260 knots at 700 feet over the ocean, the latitude and longitude...
Now Chippindale refers to the DFDR
1.11.3
DFDR – The equipment performed satisfactorily and all the parameters had been recorded correctly.
So which altitude do you think may be correct?
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Huh?
Ampan you are starting to lose my respect when you write
So how is any of that relevant?
I have noticed that when people start losing a debate on the facts, the ad hominem attacks start.
Beware, I believe the debating convention now is that the first to mention Nazis has lost.
I ask you 1979 big jet captains out there the following question: (1) How much were you being paid in 1979? (2) What was the average wage in your country in 1979? (3) Were you worth it?
I have noticed that when people start losing a debate on the facts, the ad hominem attacks start.
Beware, I believe the debating convention now is that the first to mention Nazis has lost.
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Come on you lot get real, what sort of a sightseeing trip would these pax have had at 1500ft at not below 260kts. The only reason they were down there was because the approved let down procedure was below minimums, they were trying to get below the cloud base, and track to McMurdo at 1500ft. For what reason???? they had been advised by qualified people that it was no good due weather for sightseeing, and suggested to go to Taylor valley area.
If I had an Aero club pilot carry out such a procedure with a load of fare paying pax he ,or she, would be looking for another job.
If I had an Aero club pilot carry out such a procedure with a load of fare paying pax he ,or she, would be looking for another job.
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Flat Earthers
D. Dingo #489:
Apologies for the Third Reich reference. It's just that I've had two restaurant walk-out scenes during adulthood. One concerned Erebus, and the other concerned my saying that some UK history professor should be given a visa to give a lecture about how the 6 mill figure had been overcooked. Both walk-outs were equally stupid. The only logic behind either was that they got out of paying.
Apologies for the Third Reich reference. It's just that I've had two restaurant walk-out scenes during adulthood. One concerned Erebus, and the other concerned my saying that some UK history professor should be given a visa to give a lecture about how the 6 mill figure had been overcooked. Both walk-outs were equally stupid. The only logic behind either was that they got out of paying.
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Come on you lot get real, what sort of a sightseeing trip would these pax have had at 1500ft at not below 260kts
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Agreed. The real issue is the 00000.00 feet situation.
Prospector: Will you concede defeat on the minimum altitude argument and the Sir Rochford Hughes argument (ie, going below height of known hazard without verifying position)?
I hereby give up on those.
Prospector: Will you concede defeat on the minimum altitude argument and the Sir Rochford Hughes argument (ie, going below height of known hazard without verifying position)?
I hereby give up on those.
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Ampan,
No, and it was not only Sir Rochfort Hughes argument, it is the argument of many very experienced aviators.
There have been a number of lurkers on this thread, some of whom have communicated supporting my stance, and all the thread restarted about was the NZALPA president saying all pilots agreed with Mahon's findings.
This statement was obviously incorrect, and the amount of incorrectness was amplified by the support it got from Mr Anderton, a politician whose views I also disagree with.
We get back to the first commandment.
"Thou shalt not make a stuff up or the ground will arise and smite thee"
It would appear that many here think the ground should have arisen a smitten many people who were not even involved with the operation of the aircraft, and the responsibility, for which you referred to in the form of salaries, does not rest in the front of the aircraft at all.
No, and it was not only Sir Rochfort Hughes argument, it is the argument of many very experienced aviators.
There have been a number of lurkers on this thread, some of whom have communicated supporting my stance, and all the thread restarted about was the NZALPA president saying all pilots agreed with Mahon's findings.
This statement was obviously incorrect, and the amount of incorrectness was amplified by the support it got from Mr Anderton, a politician whose views I also disagree with.
We get back to the first commandment.
"Thou shalt not make a stuff up or the ground will arise and smite thee"
It would appear that many here think the ground should have arisen a smitten many people who were not even involved with the operation of the aircraft, and the responsibility, for which you referred to in the form of salaries, does not rest in the front of the aircraft at all.
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Is that an answer as to what sort of sightseeing trip, or a justification for a move that ended up on Erebus
Of course not. Yet of the recent participants in this thread, only two will say so. It's as if the Erebus accident has become a sort of shrine for down-under pilots - some sort of sacred mythical tale about how terrible the boss is.
Some reading.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...hl=en#PPT16,M1