Flights too downmarket for many businesspeople

[pullock]

Funily enough Go Girl, your statement of what you just dont understand about what people like to recieve in service in the skies actually represents exactly what the people who are most able to pay actually want, and what people who cant quite pay for it also want.

To qualify, yes - I work in the industry, and yes, my businesses outside the industry make me a person who is able to pay. My business colleagues want the same things and are able to pay and won't travel in less. They regularly ask me what is happening in the industry as far as service goes and for them the news is all bad.

There is a vast group of people out there for whom price is not everything. These people live in expensive houses with expensive furniture, retain cleaners, accountants and lawyers, drive cars that are designed to please the senses rather than the pocket, own plush boats, and eat out at exclusive restaurants regularly. Sort of what your average airline pilot does

For people who travel by air, the experience is all about the whole package. The fast travel between destinations is just part of the airline experience. The rest of it is the thrill of flying (people outside the industry dont do it every day remember), is the quality treatment one receives when flying that one doesn't get on a train. There is a difference between taking a LIMO and taking a train. Theres a difference between flying and taking a train and it's not just the speed now that travelling by train costs more!!

My favorite things in life are travel and food (that's excluding sex and alcohol). If I can combine the two of them then (the four of them is a matter for another topic) I have found something that I am happy to pay for, just as I am happy to pay my cleaner who cleans my house, my lawyer who checks my contracts, and my accountants who aid my businesses.

Your suggestion that economy class people might like the option of paying extra for good service and food is spot on actually - compromise space for good food and service at a reasonable price - I would pay for that too.

An all business class cabin for reasonable prices (say the level of a full full fare ticket) - I would go for that all day long and so would my colleagues - even if the aircraft was a 727!!! Indulge my senses and I am happy to make compromises in other areas, including my wallet.

Reasonable price business class is the niche that I am sure Virgin are looking for, and it is only a matter of time I reckon. Then Qantas will follow - again. Low cost carriers aren't here to stay.

The problem with airlines and quality product is they havnt yet attacked their cost problems from the right angle to reduce them in the right places, instead they look in all the wrong places, and in doing so try to kill airline service. Airlines with Business class should make a sh it load out of the PAX with the deepest pockets, rather than eating their faires up in inefficiencies.

I can make a hot meal of business class standard for just cents more than a rat class one in my own kitchen at home - why can't the airlines do that and make money?

DUH......

[DirtyPierre]

Apache,

Yes I'm a big fan of the lovely whites coming out of Marlborough area of Endzed. The region and the wines are absolutely fabulous.

Agree with both GoGirl and Pullock. If you want to pay extra then you can have the better service. Its just that a property developer (nouveau riche) with his self importance just got up my nose. Mind you, the old crusty Captain Four Bars that used to regularly give ATC a hard time back in the eighties weren't much better.

Hasta la vista,

DP

[Pimp Daddy]

This is sort of on the same topic but I was at the Melbourne Golf Expo in the weekend and had a look at the big display for the Turtle Point golf course up at the Whitsundays.

Apparently the mob that own it also own Proserpine airport and are building a new airport next door to the resort and development area (had a pretty model of it).

Now the sales monkey was busy trying to sell me an apartment or something when I asked how do I get there? It's only Virgin or Jetstar isn't it. He replied along the lines of "well once the new airport opens we'll be talking to all the airlines including international, and trying to attract them here, because we will be targeting the premium customer".

Hmmm thought I, can just imagine trying to get my full golf set + a weeks clothes in under Jetstar's 20kg baggage limit.

[ditzyboy]

It isn't just LCCs that are cheapening the whole 'air travel experience' that once was...

Air New Zealand (International Airline - Member or Star Alliance) charges for excess baggage on Domestic - over 20kg... SAME as Jetstar. And they also 'offer' 30" pitch and a single class cabin. Oh and no nice wines. Not even if you want to pay. It's tea, coffee and water ONLY. Oh and you cannot earn frequent flyer points on MOST fares. Sound familiar?

Finnair - International Airline - Member of oneworld has free seating on all domestic flights. All economy too. Just the SAME as Jetstar.

American Airlines - oneworld You have to fly for three hours just to get a paper bag with three food items in it. And YOU must pick it up at the gate yourself and carry it on. Why bother? I recently flew LAX-SFO and was treated to coffee or water. Mmm - full service, indeed.

Anyone flown Business Class over in Europe? It is economy seats with the centre one blocked out. Most carriers don't even use a little table in between to make you feel special anymore. And you get food - wouldn't even call it a meal. Have a look at airlines like LH, BA and Finnair at airlinemeals.net and you'll see what I mean.

So guys you cannot blame Jetstar and Virgin for ruining your dining experience aloft. And for making are travel so 'common'. Low Cost travel is the way of the future. LCC or full service carrier. It will all be one and the same shortly.

Every time I pax to OOL in J it is full. But full of staff travellers and upgrades. In the four years I have been doing it I am yet to see more than one or two paying pax each sector, if any! There is NO J class market to OOL. NO ONE pays for it. Period.

Sorry "White Shoe Brigade". You need to take your 'premium cabin complexes' to your shrink. The airlines just don't care.

[BankAngle50]

I agree with Pullock, Ditzy, Pimp etc...

Maybe we should all put it and buy a BBJ2 and start full J class only BNE-MEL-SYD triangle. My mum could make the food at 1/4 of the cost QF catering and it wouldn’t taste like dehydrated crap.

Perhaps we could try something radicle, like improving the product and service and build brand loyalty, instead of cheapening it to come closer to a LCC model. Oh no i forgot, we don’t understand the market or who our customers are because we are pilots and don’t have an MBA! damn that BSc, i did the wrong degree and now managment think i stupid.

Ditzy while I agree with your assessment of the industry to have to admit the AA sector LAX-SFO is quite short? Last time I did it the coffee was OK and you don’t fly with ferals or Kiwis who are too tight to pay $5 more! Think AA are doing there best considering the 2 billion a quarter losses.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Poor babys. Nary a glass of champas. What a pack of f@#kin wankers. At the end of the day the dynamics of the travelling public has changed forever. Flying these days is a right, not a privilage afforded to the " Big Hitters " of society.


The " ferals sitting " next to the developer are probably ok. He just needs to see through the Mullet, tight black jeans, the flanno with winnie blues on shoulder. He probably also needs to push the other travellers pillows and doona of his seat so he can sit down.

Camel toe spotting has become a favorite game on turn arounds. This has been made so much easier with a vast increase in the numbers of trackies that seem to be worn these days. Why would this be the case?

Cheers DM

[Lodown]

I'd love to have the money to investigate the market for a fleet of good sized bizjets running R (and not so R) PT.

[omalley]

The white shoe brigade at the Gold Coast have finally figured it out ...... those that pay $39.00 to fly there are not going to $2000.00 a night at the Sheraton Mirage.

[gaunty]

Lodown

Spot on;

I said earlier in this thread that time may well be upon us here, it has been happening in the US since their deregulation and has recently gathered pace after the inevitable sorting out.

I'm not sure what the stats are now but after a time there was not one new start up out of their deregulation who were still operating.

[InitRef]

PrivatAir of Switzerland runs a daily BBJ service EWR-DUS for Lufthansa.

The BBJ is configured with business class seats only - and is supposedly doing extremely well. Swiss is now looking into it for a JFK-GVA service but using the Airbus CJ.

In the US:
While airplane travel does not have to offer Michelin Guide 5 star service, its not fair to just point at the cheap fares:
While the deep-discount fares allow a Greyhound bus pax to fly from LGA-DFW for $150, the guys in First/Business class have typically paid $2100 for the privilege. They will be lucky to get a hot meal on this 3+ hr flight.

Even worse for the business type whose company does not pay for premium class, but still shelled out $1700 for a last-minute Economy seat - and they won't even get a full can of soda.

These $1700 fares are what is allowing the "legacy" carriers to compete with the LCCs and Greyhound Bus. When some smart person figures out how to offer a PrivatAir type service domestically, those legacy carriers will be in deep doo doo.....

[BankAngle50]

Init Ref

I was thinking PrivatAir when i made my post. I have seen them at LHR in Falcon50 and the BBJ with full loads. I think a similar service would do well here if your brave enough to put up the $. Lets keep it BBJ so i dont have to learn the Airbus FMS.

[Lodown]

The historic airline model says that the airline makes its money on servicing the business and first class pax while the economy class providing a little gravy, really just fills up space unoccupied by the higher yield pax. The LCC model has turned the traditional model on its head and is now driving the market. For traditional airlines to now turn their focus on the low yield pax, they risk alienating and underservicing the higher yield pax, which seems to be happening in the above scenario. Gaunty and many others are realizing a potential market appears to be forming. Whether it is sufficient just yet to support a niche operation is yet to be determined in Australia, but I suspect it is close and getting more viable with every day. The advantage that a bizjet combination, which is not quite the traditional RPT operation but more than the traditional charter operation, will have is its flexibility, individual attention and its focus on the specific needs of a small, but high yield market. Something that the traditional airlines seem to be leaving in their wake. I’d hate to be the person juggling the schedules for such an entity. That will be one tough job. If I were the owner of a GAAP airport though, I'd be salivating at the prospect.

[Like This - Do That]

Midwest Express (now Midwest Airlines) have their DC-9s, MD80s & B717s all 2x2 and full service. I think they were profitable every year from deregulation startup until 2001. Weren't profitable for 2002, 2003, but not sure now. Mind you, they aren't trying to compete with AA, DL, UA, etc on the main routes. They fly primarily from Milwaukee & Kansas City.

A couple of others tried - Legend airlines flying from Love Field in Dallas gave it a go, but hit the skids soon after.

Is our market big enough to do this? What is the ideal aircraft? mmmmm, get your thinking caps on.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Interesting model 4% of pax load pays 25% of yield. Would think it was easy to get 8 pax a trip. BUT, if you miss getting a full fare shoe you are putting a big hole in your yield. Would have thought airlines would have been aiming for J-class to be the cream on top of the cake. Using business class advertisements to entice the unwashed to travel in cattle class thinking they are flying with an airline that looks after them that bit better than brand Y. As for food on QF, last couple of flights on evening service to BN and ML the salad has been quiet passable including the nicely chilled green can to compliment it. I thought not too shabby, for cattle-class:-)

As for the ideal AC. My vote would be on something like a 74 or 76 all business class only running in morning and afternoon peaks. 80 seats on a BBJ would push a return way over $1300 for a ML-SY pair. 200 on a 74 would be interesting. A lot of iron to be sitting idle during the day tho. I would not have thought there would be a big enough market going by the size of the GA corp jet fleet here in Oz.

[Lodown]

Heck, a 74 or 76! I was thinking a fleet in the range of a Falcon 50, Challenger, Citation X or slightly smaller. First and business class pax need flexibility, no waiting, good personal service, comfort, speed, consideration of their time and an absence of feeling they are being messed around.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Yep lodown If there was a chance ,you may as well blow their doors off.

[Uncommon Sense]

CRJ?/EMB145? Quick turnaround. Pax drop checked bags as they get on?

And what about ex- YMEN at the Melbourne End? Faster city commute.