The Bondi Beach Project- Airspace Discussion in Sydney
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The Bondi Beach Project- Airspace Discussion in Sydney
To all interested parties..a survey.
I am proposing an informal meeting between all interested airspace users, Mr. Dick Smith, Air Traffic Controllers, Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association and selected members of the media for August of 2004.
As an interested Australian, with extensive overseas experience, I would like to offer my services as a mediator to try and sort out some of the extremely opposing views on airspace reform.
In the spirit of mediation and of democracy, I would like to offer some options for venue, date and time. I am open to any suggestions
Please forward a response to me no later than June 30th, 2004.
1. Of the following dates, please choose one:
a) August 9, 2004 (Monday)
b) August 10, 2004
c) August 11, 2004
d) August 12, 2004
e) August 13,2004
2. I would like to have the meeting at the:
a) Old Airport Hilton (it's changed ownership)
b) Marriot at Hyde Park
c) Marriot at Circular Quay
3. Of the following times I think this one is best:
a) Breakfast, through mid-morning
b) Mid morning through lunch
c) During early evening..say 7:00pm through to 9:30 pm
d) All day, because it'll take that long to sort through
4. I am a:
a) Pilot (GA)
b) Pilot (Airline)
c) Air Traffic Controller
d) member of the media
e) political leader of an association or other interest
Please submit topics and surveys to me ASAP.
Sincerely,
Chris Higgins
[email protected]
I am proposing an informal meeting between all interested airspace users, Mr. Dick Smith, Air Traffic Controllers, Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association and selected members of the media for August of 2004.
As an interested Australian, with extensive overseas experience, I would like to offer my services as a mediator to try and sort out some of the extremely opposing views on airspace reform.
In the spirit of mediation and of democracy, I would like to offer some options for venue, date and time. I am open to any suggestions
Please forward a response to me no later than June 30th, 2004.
1. Of the following dates, please choose one:
a) August 9, 2004 (Monday)
b) August 10, 2004
c) August 11, 2004
d) August 12, 2004
e) August 13,2004
2. I would like to have the meeting at the:
a) Old Airport Hilton (it's changed ownership)
b) Marriot at Hyde Park
c) Marriot at Circular Quay
3. Of the following times I think this one is best:
a) Breakfast, through mid-morning
b) Mid morning through lunch
c) During early evening..say 7:00pm through to 9:30 pm
d) All day, because it'll take that long to sort through
4. I am a:
a) Pilot (GA)
b) Pilot (Airline)
c) Air Traffic Controller
d) member of the media
e) political leader of an association or other interest
Please submit topics and surveys to me ASAP.
Sincerely,
Chris Higgins
[email protected]
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Thanks for replies...
As for suggestions on topics. I don't think we really need to get all that specific just yet. We'll put the topics up, arrange them in some sort of order and post them too, as the week progresses.
Yes, I WILL protect your anonymity! Remember YOU have my name and personal e-mail.
Yes, I WILL protect your anonymity! Remember YOU have my name and personal e-mail.
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Not sure how the roster will fit yet. If it is do'able I will be there!
Suggestion:
Have the agenda separated to discuss the Airspace and the Charging regime separately, otherwise you will need a week long lockdown
Cap
Suggestion:
Have the agenda separated to discuss the Airspace and the Charging regime separately, otherwise you will need a week long lockdown
Cap
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I am going to sticky this for a bit, as the subject matter is not clear from the thread title and would not wish those interested in this vitally important subject to miss it.
I am however concerned that there are now 4 stickies on the same subject but I am reluctant to let any go until the subject has run its course.
Lets see how it runs.
Chris Higgins
Thank you for your participation and we will provide whatever assistance we can.
The Woomera tribe.
I am however concerned that there are now 4 stickies on the same subject but I am reluctant to let any go until the subject has run its course.
Lets see how it runs.
Chris Higgins
Thank you for your participation and we will provide whatever assistance we can.
The Woomera tribe.
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Thanks Woomera...
Thanks for the sticky:
How about the following:
1) Review of near miss-incidents.
2) Review of airspace interpretation.
3) Review of existing light aircraft technologies.
4) Review of existing ATC technology and Australian radar coverage.
5) Where to from now?
6) Air Service charges/ user pays/ private airports.
7) What to do about the low student start numbers?
I will personally vote for a light snack over mid-morning through early afternoon, say four or so hours. Anyone else?
Lets put all the suggestions up on the board for everyone to see.
How about the following:
1) Review of near miss-incidents.
2) Review of airspace interpretation.
3) Review of existing light aircraft technologies.
4) Review of existing ATC technology and Australian radar coverage.
5) Where to from now?
6) Air Service charges/ user pays/ private airports.
7) What to do about the low student start numbers?
I will personally vote for a light snack over mid-morning through early afternoon, say four or so hours. Anyone else?
Lets put all the suggestions up on the board for everyone to see.
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Chris,
I think this is a wonderful idea. Your agenda seems very long, and you'll need to build in strictly enforced timeframes for discussion, otherwise you'll be there for a week!
May I suggest that you get some representation from AOPA, perhaps gaunty. Reps from Civilair, ****su-tonka may be able to help out there with the appropriate people. Reps from RAAA and AFAP. Reps from AsA, Garth Cooper and Geoff Casey from Brisbane would be good. They work in Airspace, and Geoff has been heavily involved in ADS-B and other projects. Otherwise get Greg Hood from Melbourne.
Also, get the senior advisers from Martin Ferguson's and JA's office, and make them sit in on all the discussion.
Get a decent minute taker and publish your minutes publicly.
And maybe we can lobby to have you on the board of AsA.
Go for it!
I think this is a wonderful idea. Your agenda seems very long, and you'll need to build in strictly enforced timeframes for discussion, otherwise you'll be there for a week!
May I suggest that you get some representation from AOPA, perhaps gaunty. Reps from Civilair, ****su-tonka may be able to help out there with the appropriate people. Reps from RAAA and AFAP. Reps from AsA, Garth Cooper and Geoff Casey from Brisbane would be good. They work in Airspace, and Geoff has been heavily involved in ADS-B and other projects. Otherwise get Greg Hood from Melbourne.
Also, get the senior advisers from Martin Ferguson's and JA's office, and make them sit in on all the discussion.
Get a decent minute taker and publish your minutes publicly.
And maybe we can lobby to have you on the board of AsA.
Go for it!
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Get hold of 60 Minutes or similar, have them at the meeting for the day. This will give the reporter information to have a 1 hour "Debate" that can be aired on TV so all the arguments can become public knowledge.
This needs to go the the travelling public.
This needs to go the the travelling public.
Sorry to be a little negative Chris Higgins but an open meeting with people debating will achieve absolutely nothing.
First of all, the debate currently going on between Dick Smith and VoR is already showing the various points of view. Dick has an entrenched position and he is not the sort of person to comprise on anything. Having an open discussion will simply have people talking over the top of each other, yelling etc. Don't you think that if Dick was interested in what anyone else had to say he would have held open meetings around the country before pushing NAS on to the industry? Look at his track record.
Secondly, this forum provides anonymity for persons who operate at high levels in government and the aviation industry. Allowing information that would otherwise never see the light of day to be aired. These people cannot attend an open meeting and you and Dick know this. A cynical person might say that the planned Bondi meeting is a mechanism to flush out the dissenting voices within AsA, DOTARS, CASA etc. Who knows? How are you and Dick connected?
Thirdly, another meeting of pilots, ATCOs etc is just another talkfest. The people who are legally obliged to run airspace in Australia now appear to be back in charge. Dick is once again on the outer, hence his participation on this forum. John Anderson feels the pressure of an election around the corner and he knows he is vunerable on NAS.
What is it you hope to achieve? You talk about ideas you have for increasing student numbers. What has this got to do with the issue at hand? Nothing. Ask any CFI/CP who operates in this country, they know what is required. Coming from someone like yourself who trained in Oz and has lived and worked overseas for twenty years, smacks of " I'm from the US and I am here to help."
I for one have had enough of well meaning amateurs f*cking around with the industry where I make my living. Thank you for your offer but no thanks.
First of all, the debate currently going on between Dick Smith and VoR is already showing the various points of view. Dick has an entrenched position and he is not the sort of person to comprise on anything. Having an open discussion will simply have people talking over the top of each other, yelling etc. Don't you think that if Dick was interested in what anyone else had to say he would have held open meetings around the country before pushing NAS on to the industry? Look at his track record.
Secondly, this forum provides anonymity for persons who operate at high levels in government and the aviation industry. Allowing information that would otherwise never see the light of day to be aired. These people cannot attend an open meeting and you and Dick know this. A cynical person might say that the planned Bondi meeting is a mechanism to flush out the dissenting voices within AsA, DOTARS, CASA etc. Who knows? How are you and Dick connected?
Thirdly, another meeting of pilots, ATCOs etc is just another talkfest. The people who are legally obliged to run airspace in Australia now appear to be back in charge. Dick is once again on the outer, hence his participation on this forum. John Anderson feels the pressure of an election around the corner and he knows he is vunerable on NAS.
What is it you hope to achieve? You talk about ideas you have for increasing student numbers. What has this got to do with the issue at hand? Nothing. Ask any CFI/CP who operates in this country, they know what is required. Coming from someone like yourself who trained in Oz and has lived and worked overseas for twenty years, smacks of " I'm from the US and I am here to help."
I for one have had enough of well meaning amateurs f*cking around with the industry where I make my living. Thank you for your offer but no thanks.
Chris Higgins
I have to agree with Icarus2001. Well meaning you are, but I don't believe anything will be achieved. Nothing will change Dick's views, and the major players are now subjecting NAS to the proper safety and cost benefit analysis it should have had. You may not be aware that various review options have been presented to the industry this year, and a decision will be made next month on which one to adopt. I'd suggest you download the document below, and ask the National RAPAC Coordinator for the latest Powerpoint presentation of the airspace options.
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...cnsw040617.pdf
I have to agree with Icarus2001. Well meaning you are, but I don't believe anything will be achieved. Nothing will change Dick's views, and the major players are now subjecting NAS to the proper safety and cost benefit analysis it should have had. You may not be aware that various review options have been presented to the industry this year, and a decision will be made next month on which one to adopt. I'd suggest you download the document below, and ask the National RAPAC Coordinator for the latest Powerpoint presentation of the airspace options.
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...cnsw040617.pdf
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Chris,
Despite the views of Icarus and Capt. Midnight, I still believe that your Bondi meet is a good idea.
Instead of 60 minutes, contact the producers of 4 Corners, or Australian Story. They'll do a far better job.
Go for it. It won't hurt and it may help.
Despite the views of Icarus and Capt. Midnight, I still believe that your Bondi meet is a good idea.
Instead of 60 minutes, contact the producers of 4 Corners, or Australian Story. They'll do a far better job.
Go for it. It won't hurt and it may help.
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Please some of the people....some of the time.
Icarus 2001
Firstly, I've been Stateside for fourteen years, not twenty and come home to an Australian farm I still have ownership in at least once, if not twice a year. My passport still says, "Australia" and I was born in Hornsby Hospital. Not exactly a Yank meddling in other peoples affairs...
Secondly, I'm not here to rescue you! You'll have to do that yourselves! My role will merely be to mediate a process of discussion where we can have some meeting of the minds and allow the industry to move forward.
Thirdly, as for the poor student starts, I realise that aviation with an aging fleet has an image problem as you have recently pointed out, trying to attract new starts. It has been a problem for some time and there was a five year point in history where Cessna parts for light aircraft went up by almost 600%. With the price of fuel these days, combined with expensive fees and new licencing, you have a challenge ahead of you. Unfortunately, we wont be including this in the meeting....there simply won't be enough time.
Finally, I can understand your frustration and even your suspicion of me. I don't have any private agenda. I could simply fly movie stars to the Carribean, enjoy the success of two small businesses and have lots of children, but, that would be so un-Australian!
No, I don't even know Dick Smith.
I have no problem with legitimate issues involving conflict as I'm sure you will agree, this is the only way anything will ever get done.
Firstly, I've been Stateside for fourteen years, not twenty and come home to an Australian farm I still have ownership in at least once, if not twice a year. My passport still says, "Australia" and I was born in Hornsby Hospital. Not exactly a Yank meddling in other peoples affairs...
Secondly, I'm not here to rescue you! You'll have to do that yourselves! My role will merely be to mediate a process of discussion where we can have some meeting of the minds and allow the industry to move forward.
Thirdly, as for the poor student starts, I realise that aviation with an aging fleet has an image problem as you have recently pointed out, trying to attract new starts. It has been a problem for some time and there was a five year point in history where Cessna parts for light aircraft went up by almost 600%. With the price of fuel these days, combined with expensive fees and new licencing, you have a challenge ahead of you. Unfortunately, we wont be including this in the meeting....there simply won't be enough time.
Finally, I can understand your frustration and even your suspicion of me. I don't have any private agenda. I could simply fly movie stars to the Carribean, enjoy the success of two small businesses and have lots of children, but, that would be so un-Australian!
No, I don't even know Dick Smith.
I have no problem with legitimate issues involving conflict as I'm sure you will agree, this is the only way anything will ever get done.
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Chris,
I wish you well in this endeavour.
However, from previous experience with Dick (& Mike) Smith, I don't think it will have any productive outcome.
Dick does not debate or mediate; he only prophesizes and lectures. He will not listen to reason simply because he won't let any one else with a contrary view get a word in.
As for media coverage, I don't suppose Mike Moore is one of your celebrity clients??
I wish you well in this endeavour.
However, from previous experience with Dick (& Mike) Smith, I don't think it will have any productive outcome.
Dick does not debate or mediate; he only prophesizes and lectures. He will not listen to reason simply because he won't let any one else with a contrary view get a word in.
As for media coverage, I don't suppose Mike Moore is one of your celebrity clients??
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Update
It looks like Circular Quay Marriott on August 10, with morning through lunch time being the hot favourite!
For all those who have sent me wonderful, (and long), e-mails, please be patient, you deserve the respect of a full reply.
For all those who have sent me wonderful, (and long), e-mails, please be patient, you deserve the respect of a full reply.
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Put Your Name on the Docket...
I would like all interested parties to RSVP, by June 30, 2004. I have been told that I can have a conference room to do this at the Circular Quay Marriott, August 10, 2004. Time from 10:00 am to 2:00pm. No charge to you guys! There's a small lunch treat to get us through, but not a big meal.
The conference room seats 65.
If you wanna try and get this thing settled, be there! But..I need the numbers ASAP!
In the interests of decorum, only those participants that want their names listed on the docket should be allowed to present their information.
[email protected]
0011.1.724.493.0000
UTC -4 hours
The conference room seats 65.
If you wanna try and get this thing settled, be there! But..I need the numbers ASAP!
In the interests of decorum, only those participants that want their names listed on the docket should be allowed to present their information.
[email protected]
0011.1.724.493.0000
UTC -4 hours
I'm sorry I smell a rat...
What exactly do you plan to "get settled"?
Just what Dick Smith wants. Names, names , names. Then he can run his usual attack the man campaign.
Chris NAS is dead, long live NAS. The lunatics are no longer running the asylum.
If you wanna try and get this thing settled, be there!
In the interests of decorum, only those participants that want their names listed on the docket should be allowed to present their information.
Chris NAS is dead, long live NAS. The lunatics are no longer running the asylum.
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