Qantas FO's and SO's-Jetstar
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Think your question has been answered, 34. I certainly admit that I've no idea until now.
The point that I'm trying to make though, is that the system is for right here, right now. Those 20+ Captains are there whether we like it or not.
One of the main reasons that this is WRONG, is because those pilots in Jetstar who have been knocked back for QF, and are now symbolically working for QF, but on a very different pay scale.
So, why is it that these guys are acceptable to QF, but only on a lower pay scale?
Does anyone see anything RIGHT in this?
The point that I'm trying to make though, is that the system is for right here, right now. Those 20+ Captains are there whether we like it or not.
One of the main reasons that this is WRONG, is because those pilots in Jetstar who have been knocked back for QF, and are now symbolically working for QF, but on a very different pay scale.
So, why is it that these guys are acceptable to QF, but only on a lower pay scale?
Does anyone see anything RIGHT in this?
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Proplever
Do you know when to quit or give up. I bet you probably make excuses for mediocre performance. Let it rest please. It is all getting a little bit boring. Maybe the true professionals here are the Jetstar guys for quietly going along and doing their business while others and you make fools of yourself. You actually do not see the Jetstar guys posting on this forum or at least very very few. Maybe that says something.
I hope I do not sound too harsh. I am neither connected to Jetstar nor Mainline.
Have a nice day
Do you know when to quit or give up. I bet you probably make excuses for mediocre performance. Let it rest please. It is all getting a little bit boring. Maybe the true professionals here are the Jetstar guys for quietly going along and doing their business while others and you make fools of yourself. You actually do not see the Jetstar guys posting on this forum or at least very very few. Maybe that says something.
I hope I do not sound too harsh. I am neither connected to Jetstar nor Mainline.
Have a nice day
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From a man with one post. Yes. You are trying not to sound harsh? By questioning my performance? Jeez oh dear. Go away. If you don't want to read this, or get involved constructively, just go away.
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In my opinon I provided constructive criticism. After reviewing your input here and historically I am somewhat confused as to whether you are able to contribute constructively to not only this thread but past threads as well. You do your collegues more harm than good. Now I do not wish to get involved in a slinging match. Hence I will no longer post on this thread.
You judge me on 1 post now make it 2.
You judge me on 1 post now make it 2.
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Proplever,
I must say that from my observations, your comments cannot be described as being particularly constructive.
It appears that you are saying that because these pilots at Impulse have failed the superfluous tests that QANTAS use as a filter, they are somehow less skilled.
I beg to differ.
Perhaps the selection process at QANTAS is the problem, as they have let so many good pilot's miss out, and yet at the same time have let some, shall we say dubious characters, through.
Some of these Impulse guys may not have even applied to QANTAS, but as the company that they were working for was aquired by QANTAS, they now have no choice but to come underneath the QANTAS umbrella.
Although many might see QANTAS as being the be-all and end-all of aviation, some may not.
I must admit that I for one have never had the inclination to fly for QANTAS.
If you don't want to read this, or get involved constructively, just go away.
It appears that you are saying that because these pilots at Impulse have failed the superfluous tests that QANTAS use as a filter, they are somehow less skilled.
I beg to differ.
Perhaps the selection process at QANTAS is the problem, as they have let so many good pilot's miss out, and yet at the same time have let some, shall we say dubious characters, through.
Some of these Impulse guys may not have even applied to QANTAS, but as the company that they were working for was aquired by QANTAS, they now have no choice but to come underneath the QANTAS umbrella.
Although many might see QANTAS as being the be-all and end-all of aviation, some may not.
I must admit that I for one have never had the inclination to fly for QANTAS.
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All fair comments, Bull, except for one thing. You might not see my comments as "constructive", but I and many others DO. I fly with and discuss this with many other QF drivers on a daily basis, and they are all equally disturbed about what is happenning.
But, at least you make your comments rationaly, and without "playing the man". Unlike adama, who still doesn't seem to understand that what he said was an simply attack on me, nothing else (and twice to boot!). I'm a big, ugly guy and I can take whatever he dishes out, but I'd rather stick to the thread.
No, I'm not suggesting they are less skilled for an instant. I have NEVER said that.
I'm suggesting that they are being paid half as much as QF pilots for doing the same work, and they are setting a very poor precedent in Australian Aviation by accepting this deal.
I'm suggesting that QF HAS knocked back many of these guys, and whilst they are not acceptable to QF on one pay scale, they are acceptable on another lower scale. This last point is probably more directed at the company than the impulse pilots directly.
I wonder why? Could it be that there simply is no defence? Or is that defence just the childish taunts of LGR and DM? Because I still haven't read any reasonable responses from them.
Come on, impulse. Surprise me.
But, at least you make your comments rationaly, and without "playing the man". Unlike adama, who still doesn't seem to understand that what he said was an simply attack on me, nothing else (and twice to boot!). I'm a big, ugly guy and I can take whatever he dishes out, but I'd rather stick to the thread.
No, I'm not suggesting they are less skilled for an instant. I have NEVER said that.
I'm suggesting that they are being paid half as much as QF pilots for doing the same work, and they are setting a very poor precedent in Australian Aviation by accepting this deal.
I'm suggesting that QF HAS knocked back many of these guys, and whilst they are not acceptable to QF on one pay scale, they are acceptable on another lower scale. This last point is probably more directed at the company than the impulse pilots directly.
You actually do not see the Jetstar guys posting on this forum or at least very very few. Maybe that says something.
Come on, impulse. Surprise me.
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I fly with and discuss this with many other QF drivers on a daily basis, and they are all equally disturbed about what is happenning.
Obviously, your colleagues would be disturbed by the recent developments, but I believe that it is a far stretch of the imagination if you expect the Impulse guys to not sign up for Jetstar, when the only options were agree, or leave.
These guys have wives and families to support as well as you do, and this situation, and the decisions they have had to make, have been forced upon them. They are making the best of a bad situation, so that they can at least pay their bills and feed their families.
You can't honestly expect them to forego a jet job of any description, because it may erode someone elses conditions.
That is just not a realistic option.
Indeed Bullwinkle
It appears if an individual stumbles over one of the hoops at QF, this should preclude him from any jet job in this country on the basis that;
1. He will earn less money
2. Him/Her earning less money undermines the efforts of the chosen few at QF, if they accept a lower paid position.
The aspiring pilots aren't to blame here, your anger should remain focused on management for allowing this double standard to continue, and in the process divide you. You can't expect driven and dedicated people to hang up there headsets because the sole remaining company that remunerates accordingly wont have them.
On the other side of the coin it can't be too nice going to work knowing your bretheran who share equal portions of ability and responsibility are taking home substantially more than you.
It appears if an individual stumbles over one of the hoops at QF, this should preclude him from any jet job in this country on the basis that;
1. He will earn less money
2. Him/Her earning less money undermines the efforts of the chosen few at QF, if they accept a lower paid position.
The aspiring pilots aren't to blame here, your anger should remain focused on management for allowing this double standard to continue, and in the process divide you. You can't expect driven and dedicated people to hang up there headsets because the sole remaining company that remunerates accordingly wont have them.
On the other side of the coin it can't be too nice going to work knowing your bretheran who share equal portions of ability and responsibility are taking home substantially more than you.
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You cant blame the impulse guys for this, they had the option of flying jetstar or lose their jobs, that simple. They were not in the union they had no bargaining power. The union should have incorporated them earlier, but thats in the past, it can't be changed, the union is doing the best they can in the current circumstances. The management is to blame for this, its a classic divide and conquer technique and its been played out in numerous countries and industries before. Dixon is laughing his way to the bank over this debacle while the pilots argue about it. It all comes down to one point really,
Divided we fall, United we stand
The choice is for all the pilots under the qf umbrella to decide.
Divided we fall, United we stand
The choice is for all the pilots under the qf umbrella to decide.
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Questions - so many questions!
proplever
Putting your anti Impulse feelings aside for one moment, I would be interested to know (in your opinion) what remuneration mainline pilots would accept to crew a LOW COST airline that needs to be competitive with the other LOW COST airline - Virgin Blue.
Do you not think that QF would have achieved its desired cost base in another way (with a brand new company / contract pilots perhaps) if the Qantas 717 pilots had not got involved?
IMO Qantas was always likely to respond with its own LCC. Can you tell me how mainline pilots would have structured (in a competitive way) such an offshoot to Qantas.
Did you note that I referred to them as Qantas 717 pilots? When Qantas purchased Impulse they became Qantas employees. Over the years, hundreds of airlines, each with their different entry requirements have integrated successfully (Ansett did it many times over the years). Why couldn't your colleagues manage it? Could no one see the benefits of integration? Wouldn't junior mainline/intl pilots enjoy the lifestyle/flying potentially offered by the 717 fleet if it would speed up promotion opportunities?
To me it seems that the "FU - I'm all right jack" syndrome that you happily criticise others for, is exactly the reason you and your mainline/intl colleagues are now under pressure.
Putting your anti Impulse feelings aside for one moment, I would be interested to know (in your opinion) what remuneration mainline pilots would accept to crew a LOW COST airline that needs to be competitive with the other LOW COST airline - Virgin Blue.
Do you not think that QF would have achieved its desired cost base in another way (with a brand new company / contract pilots perhaps) if the Qantas 717 pilots had not got involved?
IMO Qantas was always likely to respond with its own LCC. Can you tell me how mainline pilots would have structured (in a competitive way) such an offshoot to Qantas.
Did you note that I referred to them as Qantas 717 pilots? When Qantas purchased Impulse they became Qantas employees. Over the years, hundreds of airlines, each with their different entry requirements have integrated successfully (Ansett did it many times over the years). Why couldn't your colleagues manage it? Could no one see the benefits of integration? Wouldn't junior mainline/intl pilots enjoy the lifestyle/flying potentially offered by the 717 fleet if it would speed up promotion opportunities?
To me it seems that the "FU - I'm all right jack" syndrome that you happily criticise others for, is exactly the reason you and your mainline/intl colleagues are now under pressure.
Don't forget that it was the Impulse pilot group that went to J* management OFFERING to fly the A320 under their current conditions (with a vague discussion of improvements).
J* management were flabergasted at the offer and fell off their chairs dumbstruck that they never could have dreamed of such a deal.
The Impulse pilot body then had no choice but to accept the deal and voted as such.
Smart management (only had to keep mouths shut), dumb pilot representatives (yet again).
J* management were preparing to START negotiations at DJ rates and would probably have paid more to secure a deal.
J* management were flabergasted at the offer and fell off their chairs dumbstruck that they never could have dreamed of such a deal.
The Impulse pilot body then had no choice but to accept the deal and voted as such.
Smart management (only had to keep mouths shut), dumb pilot representatives (yet again).
J* management were preparing to START negotiations at DJ rates and would probably have paid more to secure a deal.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
IF
IF
IF
IF..... AIPA had been just a LITTLE bit smarter and had taken the Impulse pilots on board then you wouldn't all be thinking and scrapping about what MIGHT have been.
Remember the adage, "People get the government they deserve."
Well guess what QF guys, YOU have got the union representing YOU, that YOU deserve!
It would seem that SOME of you are starting to wake up to the fact that YOUR APATHY is now going to turn around and bight YOU in a big way.
But it's still NOT too late, imo, to wake up to yourselves and take some POSITIVE ACTION by uniting ALL of the QF pilots, NOW!!
If you can stop the "IF's".
(And btw, proplever, would it surprise you to know that many other airlines' pilots operate the same types as QF pilots do to at least as good a standard - and frequently better
)
IF
IF
IF..... AIPA had been just a LITTLE bit smarter and had taken the Impulse pilots on board then you wouldn't all be thinking and scrapping about what MIGHT have been.
Remember the adage, "People get the government they deserve."
Well guess what QF guys, YOU have got the union representing YOU, that YOU deserve!
It would seem that SOME of you are starting to wake up to the fact that YOUR APATHY is now going to turn around and bight YOU in a big way.
But it's still NOT too late, imo, to wake up to yourselves and take some POSITIVE ACTION by uniting ALL of the QF pilots, NOW!!
If you can stop the "IF's".
(And btw, proplever, would it surprise you to know that many other airlines' pilots operate the same types as QF pilots do to at least as good a standard - and frequently better
)
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Some rational debate at last. Good to see.
Airspeed, it may surprise you to learn that RyanAir and easyjet crew are paid significantly more than Implulse and Virgin. And perhaps the most successful LCC Southwest, their pilots are paid a great deal more than QF.
LCC do NOT need to pay their pilots peanuts to be successful! QF / J* just choose to do so because they can!
And why wouldn't they when people like the IPG come along and OFFER themselves (as TT has reminded us) at lower and lower costs.
All this talk of "cost base" by airline management really is spin doctoring. Listen to GD for a while. He is very good at it. He makes Humphrey Appleby look like an amatuer.
Now, lets for a moment look at two pilots in the QF group in 1999 / 2000. Joe is a Dash 8 captain. Bill is a B1900 Captain. Bill earns just a little less than Joe. But suddenly Bill gets to fly 717's, just because he was there. He gets a command after only 500 hours on type. Now, Bill is going to automatically get to sit in the left seat of a 320 automatically, just because he was there, and because he is cheap. Joe is still on the Dash, watching as he is rapidly bypassed.
So it's not only the pilots in QF mainline who are annoyed. The regionals should be outraged.
And Kapt? Your comments held some relevance until the final one. You know I have NEVER stated that. So don't put that on me.
Airspeed, it may surprise you to learn that RyanAir and easyjet crew are paid significantly more than Implulse and Virgin. And perhaps the most successful LCC Southwest, their pilots are paid a great deal more than QF.
LCC do NOT need to pay their pilots peanuts to be successful! QF / J* just choose to do so because they can!
And why wouldn't they when people like the IPG come along and OFFER themselves (as TT has reminded us) at lower and lower costs.
All this talk of "cost base" by airline management really is spin doctoring. Listen to GD for a while. He is very good at it. He makes Humphrey Appleby look like an amatuer.
Now, lets for a moment look at two pilots in the QF group in 1999 / 2000. Joe is a Dash 8 captain. Bill is a B1900 Captain. Bill earns just a little less than Joe. But suddenly Bill gets to fly 717's, just because he was there. He gets a command after only 500 hours on type. Now, Bill is going to automatically get to sit in the left seat of a 320 automatically, just because he was there, and because he is cheap. Joe is still on the Dash, watching as he is rapidly bypassed.
So it's not only the pilots in QF mainline who are annoyed. The regionals should be outraged.
And Kapt? Your comments held some relevance until the final one. You know I have NEVER stated that. So don't put that on me.
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This all boils down to the fact that the Pilots in Australia are divided and the only way out of this is to unite under one union, the question is which one, APIA, AFAP, TWU, all are involved.
Some Qantas pilots have joined the TWU, most are represented by AIPA, Qantas Regionals, and Virgin etc. are represented by the AFAP, I think a few of the Jetstar pilots are also represented by the AFAP along with GA.
Now we all know that a union is just that, a union of like minded people looking after the interests of the group, and it is my personal belief that if we all consolidated under the banner/charter of the AFAP we would be better off, remember the members control the direction of the union. Just think how powerful the AFAP could be with a stronger membership, it could afford to employ a battery of industrial lawyers and negotiators.
I am sure there will be those out there that will say look what happened in ’66 or ’89 it was the AFAP that lost my job etc. but in truth it was you, the then membership of the AFAP that did those things, or maybe you were poorly advised, those things can be changed by becoming more involved in the election process as well as the hiring of industrial officers. The Australian Federation of Airline Pilots could be a great union given the right support.
I for one am not interested in AIPA, as it is obvious that they have very little say in what happens at Qantas anymore, management have taken control. AIPA could surly tare up some letters of agreement if they wanted to show some distaste in what has happened.
The TWU, well would you be a small fish in a big sea? Would you be forced into supporting industrial action for a group of people we have nothing to do with?
Some Qantas pilots have joined the TWU, most are represented by AIPA, Qantas Regionals, and Virgin etc. are represented by the AFAP, I think a few of the Jetstar pilots are also represented by the AFAP along with GA.
Now we all know that a union is just that, a union of like minded people looking after the interests of the group, and it is my personal belief that if we all consolidated under the banner/charter of the AFAP we would be better off, remember the members control the direction of the union. Just think how powerful the AFAP could be with a stronger membership, it could afford to employ a battery of industrial lawyers and negotiators.
I am sure there will be those out there that will say look what happened in ’66 or ’89 it was the AFAP that lost my job etc. but in truth it was you, the then membership of the AFAP that did those things, or maybe you were poorly advised, those things can be changed by becoming more involved in the election process as well as the hiring of industrial officers. The Australian Federation of Airline Pilots could be a great union given the right support.
I for one am not interested in AIPA, as it is obvious that they have very little say in what happens at Qantas anymore, management have taken control. AIPA could surly tare up some letters of agreement if they wanted to show some distaste in what has happened.
The TWU, well would you be a small fish in a big sea? Would you be forced into supporting industrial action for a group of people we have nothing to do with?
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DM - Heres a thought- instead of saying that we all need a holiday - why don't you just realise that the majority of us here want to get paid properly for the job we do that involves many sacrifes and responsibilities.
With the profits that QF make, and will continue to make - there is hardly a requirement to "slash and burn" conditions of service to levels that Impulse have successfully attained.
What your failing to see, and speak to anyone that has been around long enough - is that your mob, via your ACC arm were the ones who started the practice of pay for training and exploitation of willing pilots who had missed out with other airlines - FACT.
I keep saying it - give a GA operator jets and overnight they turn into wellsprings.
And as for your mates that think QF pilots are arrogant and not welcome at Jet* - thats a real shame. SAfety should come before EBA deals.
Good luck - as for Asia - well, up there, they don't prosititute. The world doesn't revolve around flying and selling your soul to the flying devil there, in the majority of places there is mutual respect and humility - barring stalag SQ.
With the profits that QF make, and will continue to make - there is hardly a requirement to "slash and burn" conditions of service to levels that Impulse have successfully attained.
What your failing to see, and speak to anyone that has been around long enough - is that your mob, via your ACC arm were the ones who started the practice of pay for training and exploitation of willing pilots who had missed out with other airlines - FACT.
I keep saying it - give a GA operator jets and overnight they turn into wellsprings.
And as for your mates that think QF pilots are arrogant and not welcome at Jet* - thats a real shame. SAfety should come before EBA deals.
Good luck - as for Asia - well, up there, they don't prosititute. The world doesn't revolve around flying and selling your soul to the flying devil there, in the majority of places there is mutual respect and humility - barring stalag SQ.
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It had been placed in the 'this can't be happening file'.....
I've said this before.
Mainline crews did NOTHING to stop this situation from developing when they had the chance:
1. Did not recognise early enough what QF management motives and plans were with even the introduction of Australian (an obvious testing of the waters by management with regard to response from the workers) and went along for the ride.
2. Impulse was purchased by the Qantas 'Group' and the lower paid workforce was introduced into the group (an obvious threat) and then ostracised from the mainline union and left out in the cold. The incumbent arrogance and plain STUPIDITY allowed a lower paid staff to be operating 'in house', thereby being an OBVIOUS source of lower cost labour for QF management and GD's profit motives!!!
Then, to also mistreat/reject/slander/look down upon the Impulse crews does not generate any feelings of 'comradeship' nor 'brothers in arms'. And with the prospects of the B717 being phased out, no one would have given a ****e about these guys losing their jobs. So, these guys took the option to keep them going and live to 'fight another day'.
The pathetic thing really is the way that mainline did little or no fighting to remedy this situation, and now criticise and slander the Jetstar crews for their tactics, as well as expect them to 'just say no' and save the mainline crews the 'hassle'and 'trauma' of having to actually fight an industrial fight either through clever and hard negotiating, or industrial action. Not that that would work because pilots are such a splintered and selfish group in any case, so unless YOU are prepared to fight the fight, and have enough 'comrades' to be an organised and tough workforce, well then, just sit back and accept that thing just may slide - just don't expect others to do your bidding for you.
WRT to QF Group regionals missing out, well this is a disappointment too. But again, this is a problem mainline are attaching to Impulse as well. For mainline to more or less exclude experienced regional pilots from their ranks is ludicrous - that should be agreed upon. So why expect Jetstar, a seperate entity within the QF 'Group' be obligated to take the regional crews as a progression, where mainline is not? So, another battle that Jetstar has to fight because mainline will not.
Finally, I am sure that QF have their fair share of hacks and inepts that make it through the net, so slandering all Jetstar crews as substandard is just another pathetic, schoolgirl, tongue poking excercise.
Bottom line is that mainline are too chicken to take the fight to the proper place (QF Group management), lest your comfort zone and 'lifestyle' be disturbed, you pick on the easy mark (the Impulse crews) and blame them for all your woes and expect them to do the dirty work for you.
Grow up - You either fight the fight against the proper 'adversary' or you let the guys get on with the job of feeding the kids.
The REAL enemy here is not the pilot groups, but the management that is totally profit orientated, and workers conditions and morale are low on the order of things importatnt. Like Pete Conrad said, all pilots want to work for good pay and conditions.
Unless ALL pilots stand together, a fraternity that looks after the interests of one and all, management will have their 'evil ways'with the workforce.
But a united pilot group? Like, that would happen.....(I, me, mine, my struggle, my sacrifices, my situation)..............
PS I love the way that the baggage handlers can keep their pay the same as at QF, but with better productivity, but the pilots gotta go cheap????
Mainline crews did NOTHING to stop this situation from developing when they had the chance:
1. Did not recognise early enough what QF management motives and plans were with even the introduction of Australian (an obvious testing of the waters by management with regard to response from the workers) and went along for the ride.
2. Impulse was purchased by the Qantas 'Group' and the lower paid workforce was introduced into the group (an obvious threat) and then ostracised from the mainline union and left out in the cold. The incumbent arrogance and plain STUPIDITY allowed a lower paid staff to be operating 'in house', thereby being an OBVIOUS source of lower cost labour for QF management and GD's profit motives!!!
Then, to also mistreat/reject/slander/look down upon the Impulse crews does not generate any feelings of 'comradeship' nor 'brothers in arms'. And with the prospects of the B717 being phased out, no one would have given a ****e about these guys losing their jobs. So, these guys took the option to keep them going and live to 'fight another day'.
The pathetic thing really is the way that mainline did little or no fighting to remedy this situation, and now criticise and slander the Jetstar crews for their tactics, as well as expect them to 'just say no' and save the mainline crews the 'hassle'and 'trauma' of having to actually fight an industrial fight either through clever and hard negotiating, or industrial action. Not that that would work because pilots are such a splintered and selfish group in any case, so unless YOU are prepared to fight the fight, and have enough 'comrades' to be an organised and tough workforce, well then, just sit back and accept that thing just may slide - just don't expect others to do your bidding for you.
WRT to QF Group regionals missing out, well this is a disappointment too. But again, this is a problem mainline are attaching to Impulse as well. For mainline to more or less exclude experienced regional pilots from their ranks is ludicrous - that should be agreed upon. So why expect Jetstar, a seperate entity within the QF 'Group' be obligated to take the regional crews as a progression, where mainline is not? So, another battle that Jetstar has to fight because mainline will not.
Finally, I am sure that QF have their fair share of hacks and inepts that make it through the net, so slandering all Jetstar crews as substandard is just another pathetic, schoolgirl, tongue poking excercise.
Bottom line is that mainline are too chicken to take the fight to the proper place (QF Group management), lest your comfort zone and 'lifestyle' be disturbed, you pick on the easy mark (the Impulse crews) and blame them for all your woes and expect them to do the dirty work for you.
Grow up - You either fight the fight against the proper 'adversary' or you let the guys get on with the job of feeding the kids.
The REAL enemy here is not the pilot groups, but the management that is totally profit orientated, and workers conditions and morale are low on the order of things importatnt. Like Pete Conrad said, all pilots want to work for good pay and conditions.
Unless ALL pilots stand together, a fraternity that looks after the interests of one and all, management will have their 'evil ways'with the workforce.
But a united pilot group? Like, that would happen.....(I, me, mine, my struggle, my sacrifices, my situation)..............
PS I love the way that the baggage handlers can keep their pay the same as at QF, but with better productivity, but the pilots gotta go cheap????
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Sorry, but it has to be said ...
IF - as quoted elsewhere in this forum - a QF B737 Captain is being paid between 200 and 240K ASD, then it is no wonder a more realistic cost basis for crews is being persued by QF - that sort of pay for the sort of revenue which can be earned with low yield fares (such as now are being required to compete) is out of step with reality. The entrenched attitudes expressed in here against any sort of recognition of and accomodation to the current operating/competitive realities by SOME will serve to doom them to oblivion.
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iN MY BOOKS THATS UNDERPAID. Just because you Kiwis sell yourself short, doesnt mean others have to lower their standards. How much should someone entrusted to 200 or so peoples lives be paid. You only have yourself and the ther guys on the flight deck to consult in an emergency, not the luxury of board meeting with a dozen other guys and with no time pressure.
Unfortunately and dare i say it, what this country really needs in several accidents to prove what a pilots worth. Its a horrible thought, and I hope it doesnt eventuate.
Unfortunately and dare i say it, what this country really needs in several accidents to prove what a pilots worth. Its a horrible thought, and I hope it doesnt eventuate.