Qantas FO's and SO's-Jetstar
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Proplever,
Comparing the pay rates at Euro LCC’s and with Oz LCC’s is pointless. Unless you consider all of the factors at play in both markets (especially a lack of tech crew during the boom phase of the Euro startups).
“LCC do NOT need to pay their pilots peanuts to be successful! QF / J* just choose to do so because they can”
Although I would argue that Jetstar pay rates are not peanuts, I agree with you that Jetstar’s success does not hinge on paying pilots approx half of a mainline wage. But a big part of Jetstar’s comparative advantage (that will be finite) is staffing costs (all staff) and more importantly labor flexibility, something that SWA, Ryan and Easy have in spades over the incumbents like UA, AA and BA.
I wholeheartedly agree with your comment that “ . . they can”. Precisely. The Oz industry is full of experienced pilots and a premium is not required to attract people to work for Jetstar. Can I clarify your position – are you therefore arguing that QF should pay Jetstar crew higher wages even though they don’t need to.
What business logic would that be employing.
Comparing the pay rates at Euro LCC’s and with Oz LCC’s is pointless. Unless you consider all of the factors at play in both markets (especially a lack of tech crew during the boom phase of the Euro startups).
“LCC do NOT need to pay their pilots peanuts to be successful! QF / J* just choose to do so because they can”
Although I would argue that Jetstar pay rates are not peanuts, I agree with you that Jetstar’s success does not hinge on paying pilots approx half of a mainline wage. But a big part of Jetstar’s comparative advantage (that will be finite) is staffing costs (all staff) and more importantly labor flexibility, something that SWA, Ryan and Easy have in spades over the incumbents like UA, AA and BA.
I wholeheartedly agree with your comment that “ . . they can”. Precisely. The Oz industry is full of experienced pilots and a premium is not required to attract people to work for Jetstar. Can I clarify your position – are you therefore arguing that QF should pay Jetstar crew higher wages even though they don’t need to.
What business logic would that be employing.
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Could everyone pause for a short history lesson? (It may not seem relevant to this thread at first glance, but I do believe it is, so please – particularly QF mainline drivers – take the time to read it.)
It’s September 1940 and the battle of Britain is reaching crisis levels for the British. The superbly trained pre-war RAF fighter pilot ranks have been thinned considerably by the high attrition any front line force will suffer in such circumstances. The RAF rushes hastily-trained, non-commissioned replacements to front line squadrons, many of them with standards and levels of training that would never have been accepted as little as six months earlier.
Now let’s switch to current times and you’re producing a modern day morality play on the BoB. Let’s assign roles:
- The Luftwaffe: QF Management (who else?)
- The highly trained RAF fighter pilots (with all the right social skills and connections to win a peace time commission in the pre-war RAF). The QF mainline drivers
-The perhaps not so well trained (and lacking in the right connections and social polish) non-commissioned replacement RAF fighter pilots: The Impulse and Qantaslink drivers
-The people of Britain and the Free World): The current Australian GA pilots and future generations of Australian airline pilots
Now a question for you QF mainline drivers: If the doubtlessly higher quality pilots of the pre-war RAF had refused to sully their ranks with lesser mortals in the shape of Czech, French, Polish, along with lower class British and Empire (that’s us Aussie, Kiwi, Canuck and Indian) pilots who’d been rushed through bare-bones wartime training courses – many if not most of whom would never have passed muster as officers and gentlemen in a pre-war RAF officers’ mess - what would have been the outcome of the Battle of Britain, and therefore WW2?
And another question: if we string the history lesson out to the next stage and accept that the pre-war RAF pilots did accept the lesser mortals into their ranks back in 1940, how many of the cheering crowds that line the streets in parades celebrating the British victory knew (or gave a tinker’s cuss) whether you, marching in the parade in your blazer with your medals proudly displayed, were a higher class pre-war pilot or a ‘quickie’ wartime replacement?
May I say, as an outsider not currently employed in Australian Aviation, that anyone who doesn’t see that Australian airline pilots are currently committed to a war no less desperate and with stakes almost as high as the those of a ‘real’ war, they’re wearing blinkers. You all simply MUST get together and form a united front to stop any further erosion of conditions or there’ll be no ‘victory parades’ in later years.
As much as it might stick in the craws of some, you will even have to welcome into your UNITED ranks pilots who didn’t cut the mustard in earlier battles (you know the one I mean) if they are willing to stand – and do stand - with you this time.
And any one of you who think the way that ‘Pete Conrad’ and a few others who’ve posted here do - that you are somehow special because you passed some tests that others didn’t and that’s reason enough to keep these others out of your ranks no matter what - you’re doomed to lose much more than some special status as ‘a Qantas pilot’ that you think you’re defending.
It’s September 1940 and the battle of Britain is reaching crisis levels for the British. The superbly trained pre-war RAF fighter pilot ranks have been thinned considerably by the high attrition any front line force will suffer in such circumstances. The RAF rushes hastily-trained, non-commissioned replacements to front line squadrons, many of them with standards and levels of training that would never have been accepted as little as six months earlier.
Now let’s switch to current times and you’re producing a modern day morality play on the BoB. Let’s assign roles:
- The Luftwaffe: QF Management (who else?)
- The highly trained RAF fighter pilots (with all the right social skills and connections to win a peace time commission in the pre-war RAF). The QF mainline drivers
-The perhaps not so well trained (and lacking in the right connections and social polish) non-commissioned replacement RAF fighter pilots: The Impulse and Qantaslink drivers
-The people of Britain and the Free World): The current Australian GA pilots and future generations of Australian airline pilots
Now a question for you QF mainline drivers: If the doubtlessly higher quality pilots of the pre-war RAF had refused to sully their ranks with lesser mortals in the shape of Czech, French, Polish, along with lower class British and Empire (that’s us Aussie, Kiwi, Canuck and Indian) pilots who’d been rushed through bare-bones wartime training courses – many if not most of whom would never have passed muster as officers and gentlemen in a pre-war RAF officers’ mess - what would have been the outcome of the Battle of Britain, and therefore WW2?
And another question: if we string the history lesson out to the next stage and accept that the pre-war RAF pilots did accept the lesser mortals into their ranks back in 1940, how many of the cheering crowds that line the streets in parades celebrating the British victory knew (or gave a tinker’s cuss) whether you, marching in the parade in your blazer with your medals proudly displayed, were a higher class pre-war pilot or a ‘quickie’ wartime replacement?
May I say, as an outsider not currently employed in Australian Aviation, that anyone who doesn’t see that Australian airline pilots are currently committed to a war no less desperate and with stakes almost as high as the those of a ‘real’ war, they’re wearing blinkers. You all simply MUST get together and form a united front to stop any further erosion of conditions or there’ll be no ‘victory parades’ in later years.
As much as it might stick in the craws of some, you will even have to welcome into your UNITED ranks pilots who didn’t cut the mustard in earlier battles (you know the one I mean) if they are willing to stand – and do stand - with you this time.
And any one of you who think the way that ‘Pete Conrad’ and a few others who’ve posted here do - that you are somehow special because you passed some tests that others didn’t and that’s reason enough to keep these others out of your ranks no matter what - you’re doomed to lose much more than some special status as ‘a Qantas pilot’ that you think you’re defending.
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Wiley. How are you qualified to comment on training standards. Impulse has been scruitinised alot by qantas check and training Captains. They ride along in the jump and check all facits of the operation. This has been happening for at least 12 months.
Looking down your nose at others certainly does not make you a professional. Most guys who have been around know this.
Nice vitriol.
Looking down your nose at others certainly does not make you a professional. Most guys who have been around know this.
Nice vitriol.
Grandpa Aerotart
Better I think to just ignore the arrogant ravings of the miniscule % of 'real QF' pilots who feel the need to post such utter drivel here.
It's a well known fact that QF have employed many dickheads over the years, we all know a few who stunned us by getting a QF guernsey despite having less than impressive histories in GA/RAAF, and we all know many really good guys who missed out.
So a few of the dickheads believe their own press and are so insecure as to need, at every opportunity, to kick the 'lesser mortals' who didn't get in while they are 'down'.
Get over it guys.....lots of us never even applied to QF.
I even know a bunch of ex QF guys, of all ranks, who left because they didn't much like working there, for whatever reason ranging from the crap dished out by 'God Like' 744 captains to just not wanting to wait their entire adult lives for a command.
I personally know a large number of Jet* guys and I can attest to the fact that their skill levels and professionalism would match up to ANY QF mainline pilot....not better, nor worse...just every bit as good.
So AIPA have once again missed the boat industrially....well that'd be about time 10 that I can think of off the top of my head. They have fought against the integration of all QF (regional) pilots for years and now wonder why it's all coming unraveled....poor diddums!!!
What utter arrogance that they think that the pilot group outside QF mainline must give any consideration WHATSOEVER to the opinions of a bunch of egomaniacs who have fought ONLY for their own self interest for decades.
Let alone the utter nieve stupidity of this pilot group who can't even see the wood for the trees. QF management have played you for the chumps you are....now you want to blame everyone else.
I feel for the larger % of QF mainline pilots who don't share this arrogance but are tarred with the same brush.
Chuck.
It's a well known fact that QF have employed many dickheads over the years, we all know a few who stunned us by getting a QF guernsey despite having less than impressive histories in GA/RAAF, and we all know many really good guys who missed out.
So a few of the dickheads believe their own press and are so insecure as to need, at every opportunity, to kick the 'lesser mortals' who didn't get in while they are 'down'.
Get over it guys.....lots of us never even applied to QF.
I even know a bunch of ex QF guys, of all ranks, who left because they didn't much like working there, for whatever reason ranging from the crap dished out by 'God Like' 744 captains to just not wanting to wait their entire adult lives for a command.
I personally know a large number of Jet* guys and I can attest to the fact that their skill levels and professionalism would match up to ANY QF mainline pilot....not better, nor worse...just every bit as good.
So AIPA have once again missed the boat industrially....well that'd be about time 10 that I can think of off the top of my head. They have fought against the integration of all QF (regional) pilots for years and now wonder why it's all coming unraveled....poor diddums!!!
What utter arrogance that they think that the pilot group outside QF mainline must give any consideration WHATSOEVER to the opinions of a bunch of egomaniacs who have fought ONLY for their own self interest for decades.
Let alone the utter nieve stupidity of this pilot group who can't even see the wood for the trees. QF management have played you for the chumps you are....now you want to blame everyone else.
I feel for the larger % of QF mainline pilots who don't share this arrogance but are tarred with the same brush.
Chuck.
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Bloody hell, McD! Your reply shows exactly why management are going to win this. I'm not for one moment saying that Impulse drivers are lesser in ANY way to QF mainline drivers - I'm trying to point out to SOME mainline drivers that their PERCEIVED superiority, (the patenylt silly attitude that has led to the sorry state of affairs we see today with fragmented pilot groups), means absolutely nothing in the long run and if things continue the way they are going, they'll lose much more than their self-perceived position of superiority because they are 'pre-war trained'.
Look back to my earlier posts. I'm the one who was jumped on by people like you for saying the time has come to amalgamate all pilot unions into one UNION. That's U-N-I-O-N. I'm also the one who said that QF drivers started this rot back in 1983 of whenever it was by breaking away from the AFAP to form AIPA.
Look back to my earlier posts. I'm the one who was jumped on by people like you for saying the time has come to amalgamate all pilot unions into one UNION. That's U-N-I-O-N. I'm also the one who said that QF drivers started this rot back in 1983 of whenever it was by breaking away from the AFAP to form AIPA.
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Gentleman and Ladies
If we can put all the personal attacks aside for the moment and leave the past in the past for a brief moment I believe that the real question is –
WHAT IS YOUR PROFESSIONAL QUALIFICATION WORTH?
QF management have taken the opportunity to say to ALL Pilots in Australia that you are paid TOO much money. In just the same way as Richard Branson did with Virgin Blue a few years ago.
What saddens me is that for a group of professionals, I assume it is just a minority, take great delight in the troubles of others. Are we, unlike all other professional groups, prepared to offer our services at a lower and lower level to the next company that comes along as the going rate gets closer to rock bottom.
We ALL have put the work and personal sacrifices into gaining our professional qualifications and then we have ALL put the time and effort in to maintaining these qualifications. Some of us for longer than others maybe, but I believe that the question is not what one group of Australian pilots is worth because the downward pressure on one group of pilots wages will sooner or later be applied to ALL pilots wages in Australia unless we as a group do something constructive about it.
While every other group of wage earners in the country are pushing for greater remuneration we are arguing amongst our selves in what I believe is a very immature fashion to the benefit of those who definitely don’t have our best interests at heart.
While AIPA is not blameless they and the QF pilots have to act within the law of the land. The past is the past but the future is not yet written.
To those who take delight in the plight of the QF pilots situation remember that you will be next. If you believe that your boss won’t look at what an A320 Captain is now worth in Australia and not think that YOU are now overpaid, well as Michael Caton said in an Australian classic “Tell him he’s dreaming”.
If we can put all the personal attacks aside for the moment and leave the past in the past for a brief moment I believe that the real question is –
WHAT IS YOUR PROFESSIONAL QUALIFICATION WORTH?
QF management have taken the opportunity to say to ALL Pilots in Australia that you are paid TOO much money. In just the same way as Richard Branson did with Virgin Blue a few years ago.
What saddens me is that for a group of professionals, I assume it is just a minority, take great delight in the troubles of others. Are we, unlike all other professional groups, prepared to offer our services at a lower and lower level to the next company that comes along as the going rate gets closer to rock bottom.
We ALL have put the work and personal sacrifices into gaining our professional qualifications and then we have ALL put the time and effort in to maintaining these qualifications. Some of us for longer than others maybe, but I believe that the question is not what one group of Australian pilots is worth because the downward pressure on one group of pilots wages will sooner or later be applied to ALL pilots wages in Australia unless we as a group do something constructive about it.
While every other group of wage earners in the country are pushing for greater remuneration we are arguing amongst our selves in what I believe is a very immature fashion to the benefit of those who definitely don’t have our best interests at heart.
While AIPA is not blameless they and the QF pilots have to act within the law of the land. The past is the past but the future is not yet written.
To those who take delight in the plight of the QF pilots situation remember that you will be next. If you believe that your boss won’t look at what an A320 Captain is now worth in Australia and not think that YOU are now overpaid, well as Michael Caton said in an Australian classic “Tell him he’s dreaming”.
Longbow
Wiley,
You draw a very long bow in your comparison with the domestic airline situation and WW2. Noone's exactly dying here are they? It ranks up there as a poor analogy, with the 'epic ANZAC day' footie matches where promoters try to trade in on 'ANZAC spirit and tradition'. I can't stand that comparison, it dumbs down the word 'war'.
CS
You draw a very long bow in your comparison with the domestic airline situation and WW2. Noone's exactly dying here are they? It ranks up there as a poor analogy, with the 'epic ANZAC day' footie matches where promoters try to trade in on 'ANZAC spirit and tradition'. I can't stand that comparison, it dumbs down the word 'war'.
CS
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I think the Colonel and Chimbu have just about summed it up.
Best post of the thread Col. When backed into a corner and not supported from day one the result was predetermined.
Give up a career for those who would happily stand by and watch you track direct to the CES. Mmmmmmmm let me think about that for a moment. I certainly feel for the SILENT majority who are misrepresented on this and other forums.
Best post of the thread Col. When backed into a corner and not supported from day one the result was predetermined.
Give up a career for those who would happily stand by and watch you track direct to the CES. Mmmmmmmm let me think about that for a moment. I certainly feel for the SILENT majority who are misrepresented on this and other forums.
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Your point about the CES is valid DM, and I understand and sympathise.
But I've got to ask you.
What would GD have done with Jetstar if you guys did not offer yourselves at the same pay rate? Would he have employed outside pilots at the same rate? Would he have offered it to QF mainline? Other options?
And the next question which leads naturally from above is this: what is an A320 driver in Oz really worth? Managements opinion has been very clearly expressed. Whats your opinion?
And DM, lets hypothesize further. Lets say ****** pilots bid to fly the A320 on half what you guys are getting. How would you feel about that?
But I've got to ask you.
What would GD have done with Jetstar if you guys did not offer yourselves at the same pay rate? Would he have employed outside pilots at the same rate? Would he have offered it to QF mainline? Other options?
And the next question which leads naturally from above is this: what is an A320 driver in Oz really worth? Managements opinion has been very clearly expressed. Whats your opinion?
And DM, lets hypothesize further. Lets say ****** pilots bid to fly the A320 on half what you guys are getting. How would you feel about that?
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Proplever. Id love to earn a million dollars a year. But thats not going to happen. Unfortunately market forces AT THE MOMENT are dictating lower wages. If someone bidded a lower wage case , well good luck to them.
Having been around a bit, I can tell you that you learn to see through the bullsh!t and get on with it. Airlines are not about feathering your own nest. Yes that is a nice byproduct. But at the end of the day, it is the travelling public that dictates terms to the management, who in turn pass it on to us.
Demanding big money is nice in principal. But the realities of the modern day airline operation are quite different to the very very good old days. Id like to think that the majority can forget the lone fools and get together in the future to ensure a health industry. Standing the high moral ground, at the end of the day, will achieve nothing.
Cheers DM
Having been around a bit, I can tell you that you learn to see through the bullsh!t and get on with it. Airlines are not about feathering your own nest. Yes that is a nice byproduct. But at the end of the day, it is the travelling public that dictates terms to the management, who in turn pass it on to us.
Demanding big money is nice in principal. But the realities of the modern day airline operation are quite different to the very very good old days. Id like to think that the majority can forget the lone fools and get together in the future to ensure a health industry. Standing the high moral ground, at the end of the day, will achieve nothing.
Cheers DM
Last edited by Douglas Mcdonnell; 6th Mar 2004 at 17:16.
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I'm struggling with this concept that because Joe Average Ozzie has been convinced that it is his right to be able to travel between SYD and MEL for $30, that we now pay the price.
And I'm struggling to come to grips with the idea that (with all due respect, DM) pilots can just shrug their shoulders and say "well lets just get on with it".
I'm not suggesting "big money" by any means. But I am suggesting reasonable money. Show me another profession in Australia where wages are being reduced by half.
There comes a point in time where you have to say NO! If we don't do it now, then when. I've said it on another thread, but I'll say it again;
HOW LOW DO WE HAVE TO GO...?
And I'm struggling to come to grips with the idea that (with all due respect, DM) pilots can just shrug their shoulders and say "well lets just get on with it".
I'm not suggesting "big money" by any means. But I am suggesting reasonable money. Show me another profession in Australia where wages are being reduced by half.
There comes a point in time where you have to say NO! If we don't do it now, then when. I've said it on another thread, but I'll say it again;
HOW LOW DO WE HAVE TO GO...?
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Col.w.e.Kurtz
So can we take it from your quote that you are against allowing the regional pilots progression to the bottom of the J* list, maybe you should reread your post, seems you may have a bit of a double standard going.
WRT to QF Group regionals missing out, well this is a disappointment too. But again, this is a problem mainline are attaching to Impulse as well. For mainline to more or less exclude experienced regional pilots from their ranks is ludicrous - that should be agreed upon. So why expect Jetstar, a seperate entity within the QF 'Group' be obligated to take the regional crews as a progression, where mainline is not? So, another battle that Jetstar has to fight because mainline will not.
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To "Woftam" and "Blueloo"
Woftam, read my post again. What I am saying is that to compete 'head to head" with Virgin/a similar model operation, the operating costs and structure of the current QF domestic operation are too high for an all budget fare operation - hence a competitive operation - in this case "Jetstar" HAS to adopt a lower and more efficient cost structure. I made no comment on the profitability of QF domestic as such.
This could be and should be a reasoned and intelligent debate - all I see from over here is another industrial "self destruct" scenario underway, driven by industrial and economic naievity.
Blueloo, you said :
"Unfortunately and dare i say it, what this country really needs in several accidents to prove what a pilots worth. Its a horrible thought, and I hope it doesnt eventuate."
Firstly, IMO, to think that is "sick". However, more to the point, it shows up one of the flaws in your argument (shared by some others here) - that the rate paid for a job will determine the quality of the job done. Elsewhere there has been an equating of "pay" with "standards".
If you or anyone is seriously suggesting (and regrettably I believe some are) that the Jetstar payrates will mean that their pilots are less qualified, capable, or "safe" than a QF pilot on the basis of pay, or that the opposite holds true, while choosing to overlook the realities of the Australasian/Pacific aviation scene, then you are setting yourselves up for a nasty fall. There are enough recent examples to provide cautionary tales without the need to enumerate them.
This could be and should be a reasoned and intelligent debate - all I see from over here is another industrial "self destruct" scenario underway, driven by industrial and economic naievity.
Blueloo, you said :
"Unfortunately and dare i say it, what this country really needs in several accidents to prove what a pilots worth. Its a horrible thought, and I hope it doesnt eventuate."
Firstly, IMO, to think that is "sick". However, more to the point, it shows up one of the flaws in your argument (shared by some others here) - that the rate paid for a job will determine the quality of the job done. Elsewhere there has been an equating of "pay" with "standards".
If you or anyone is seriously suggesting (and regrettably I believe some are) that the Jetstar payrates will mean that their pilots are less qualified, capable, or "safe" than a QF pilot on the basis of pay, or that the opposite holds true, while choosing to overlook the realities of the Australasian/Pacific aviation scene, then you are setting yourselves up for a nasty fall. There are enough recent examples to provide cautionary tales without the need to enumerate them.
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nzer,
QF domestic IS competing head to head against Virgin NOW!
AND making a handsome profit,thank you very much.
What Jetstar is about is smoke and mirrors and arresting the market share slide as well as a huge industrial relations "cleansing".
Pilots don't need to be paid crap to make a profit. Look around the world.
QF domestic is bringing home the bacon NOW before "Jetstar" has turned a wheel.
QF domestic IS competing head to head against Virgin NOW!
AND making a handsome profit,thank you very much.
What Jetstar is about is smoke and mirrors and arresting the market share slide as well as a huge industrial relations "cleansing".
Pilots don't need to be paid crap to make a profit. Look around the world.
QF domestic is bringing home the bacon NOW before "Jetstar" has turned a wheel.
Nunc est bibendum
Market forces? WE are the market. Pilots. The 'forces' on us are the company. Sure, WE may be under considerable stress but that doesn't mean that we just accept whatever bones are thrown our way.
QF put a gun to the IPG head. IPG made the best decision possible under the circumstances. I'm cool with that. I've even challenged a bunch of QF people on occasion that 'we' would probably have done the same thing if in the same place. The caveat that I always add is that because of the fractured set up of pilot representational bodies in Australia, the IPG made a decision (that would have been extremally emotional) based on flawed, incomplete and almost mischevious information from the company. Was a proper decision making process gone through after that? Were all sources of information sought? What 'other' information did the IPG try to gather. They certainly didn't ask AIPA who may have had some other information (like it ain't a gun, it's a pea shooter) and this brings me to my final point.
Why didn't they ask? Lack of trust. We screw each other over for the slightest advantage and it has to stop. This forum is a prime example where we take great delight in labelling each other all the time. Sure, occasionally it is a 'righteous' kill (such as NG and his 'independant audit' crap) however the personal hate and disgust with each other based on who we happened to be offered a job by is just nuts. It's selfish and arrogant and ultimately self defeating. We've got to get past the past and move forward together. A wise bloke once said, 'United we stand. Divided, we fall'. Is it any surprise why we're 'falling' at the moment? I don't care why we've been divided in the past except to learn how we can be united from now on.
It IS that simple.
QF put a gun to the IPG head. IPG made the best decision possible under the circumstances. I'm cool with that. I've even challenged a bunch of QF people on occasion that 'we' would probably have done the same thing if in the same place. The caveat that I always add is that because of the fractured set up of pilot representational bodies in Australia, the IPG made a decision (that would have been extremally emotional) based on flawed, incomplete and almost mischevious information from the company. Was a proper decision making process gone through after that? Were all sources of information sought? What 'other' information did the IPG try to gather. They certainly didn't ask AIPA who may have had some other information (like it ain't a gun, it's a pea shooter) and this brings me to my final point.
Why didn't they ask? Lack of trust. We screw each other over for the slightest advantage and it has to stop. This forum is a prime example where we take great delight in labelling each other all the time. Sure, occasionally it is a 'righteous' kill (such as NG and his 'independant audit' crap) however the personal hate and disgust with each other based on who we happened to be offered a job by is just nuts. It's selfish and arrogant and ultimately self defeating. We've got to get past the past and move forward together. A wise bloke once said, 'United we stand. Divided, we fall'. Is it any surprise why we're 'falling' at the moment? I don't care why we've been divided in the past except to learn how we can be united from now on.
It IS that simple.
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Spinout, I suggest you re-read my post because I am not infering what you believe I am.
If you read it again you will see that I am infering that mainline are expecting others to fight their fights for them (in this case, Jetstar providing a career progression for QF regional pilots, instead of mainline).
I think that the idea of QF regional pilots progressing through J* would bring some more skill and experience into the company, which can only be positive. I argue that mainline should be doing the same, and expecting J* to do this alone is just another example of shirking leadership and responsibility onto other peoples shoulders.
As I am led to believe, that there is some 'history' between the IPG and QF group regional pilots, which further clouds the issue.
Let me digress...(what, further????)
What you have is an 'orphaned' pilot group in the IPG. I'm not so sure that they got the support that they probably should have been given when they were brought into the QF 'Group', considering the size of the group, and the thin ice they were walking upon. Considered the illegitimate baby, over time they have been blamed, slandered and villified for all sorts of reasons and problems that occur today for reasons that had more to do with modern corporate management and the free market society we all 'love so dearly', than with pilots desire to 'get ahead' and get 'a foot in the door'.
Looking at this a little further, one could even argue the merits of paying for their own endorsements; but you can be sure this was a decision they had to make, definitely against their own wishes and preferences, but if you wanna play in the game, and someone else hold the cards, what does one do?
If the shoe was on the other foot, and people who had dreamed of getting into QF were required to foot the bill for endorsements in the form of securities/bonds etc, few would baulk at that, let's be honest.
I really couldn't see mainline pilots going out of their way to stop or protect the B717's from going once the leases are finished and effectively putting the IPG pilots out on the street. It would have been more a matter of 'they're finally gone'. Now they have managed to gain an ace in their deck in the form of the A320's, as a matter of SURVIVAL, and suddenly, they are the centre of all the wrong sort of attention.
Let me finish by saying that I have no doubt that the majority of pilots are thoroughly skilled and motivated professionals. This high motivation also makes them do things that are self centred and in the self interest. I also believe that alot of mainline pilots do not share the opinion of a vocal minority who come across as arrogant and uncaring. The crux of the matter is how fractionalised pilots are in this country - that's a given. Until all pilots are willing to stop acying like school girls in a school yard, get together as a unified and organised workforce/fraternity/guild or whatever, and unless each individual pilot is willing to stand together to defend or improve pilot conditions UNIVERSALLY (in Australia, at least), well then one has to be prepared for the inevitable slide.
Or, you can get out whilst you still have your youth
If you read it again you will see that I am infering that mainline are expecting others to fight their fights for them (in this case, Jetstar providing a career progression for QF regional pilots, instead of mainline).
I think that the idea of QF regional pilots progressing through J* would bring some more skill and experience into the company, which can only be positive. I argue that mainline should be doing the same, and expecting J* to do this alone is just another example of shirking leadership and responsibility onto other peoples shoulders.
As I am led to believe, that there is some 'history' between the IPG and QF group regional pilots, which further clouds the issue.
Let me digress...(what, further????)
What you have is an 'orphaned' pilot group in the IPG. I'm not so sure that they got the support that they probably should have been given when they were brought into the QF 'Group', considering the size of the group, and the thin ice they were walking upon. Considered the illegitimate baby, over time they have been blamed, slandered and villified for all sorts of reasons and problems that occur today for reasons that had more to do with modern corporate management and the free market society we all 'love so dearly', than with pilots desire to 'get ahead' and get 'a foot in the door'.
Looking at this a little further, one could even argue the merits of paying for their own endorsements; but you can be sure this was a decision they had to make, definitely against their own wishes and preferences, but if you wanna play in the game, and someone else hold the cards, what does one do?
If the shoe was on the other foot, and people who had dreamed of getting into QF were required to foot the bill for endorsements in the form of securities/bonds etc, few would baulk at that, let's be honest.
I really couldn't see mainline pilots going out of their way to stop or protect the B717's from going once the leases are finished and effectively putting the IPG pilots out on the street. It would have been more a matter of 'they're finally gone'. Now they have managed to gain an ace in their deck in the form of the A320's, as a matter of SURVIVAL, and suddenly, they are the centre of all the wrong sort of attention.
Let me finish by saying that I have no doubt that the majority of pilots are thoroughly skilled and motivated professionals. This high motivation also makes them do things that are self centred and in the self interest. I also believe that alot of mainline pilots do not share the opinion of a vocal minority who come across as arrogant and uncaring. The crux of the matter is how fractionalised pilots are in this country - that's a given. Until all pilots are willing to stop acying like school girls in a school yard, get together as a unified and organised workforce/fraternity/guild or whatever, and unless each individual pilot is willing to stand together to defend or improve pilot conditions UNIVERSALLY (in Australia, at least), well then one has to be prepared for the inevitable slide.
Or, you can get out whilst you still have your youth