Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

NAS on the skids?

Old 18th Sep 2003, 13:53
  #1 (permalink)  
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NAS on the skids?

The pilots and ATC unions appear to be having their say on NAS with a formal request to defer rollout...

Joint Letter to the Minister for Transport

Any opinions?
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Old 18th Sep 2003, 17:28
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Can't help but agree. So far the NAS implementation leaves me with a real cold feeling in regard to safety.
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Old 18th Sep 2003, 18:14
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Be still my beating heart

The voice of reason raises its head once more. No more wading through the anal emanations of Winstun and BIK 116.8 to try an find a grain of truth in their reality challenged visions of the way the world "should" be.

GA will say that this is the big boys just throwing their weight around to protect their own patches. Too bloody right! The patch that's being protected is home turf to the vast bulk of the travelling public.

It's too good to be true - no doubt Dick will find a way around it.
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Old 18th Sep 2003, 19:20
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Couldn't agree more guys (gals?). A combined approach from the (very concerned) industry is the only way the politicians and government are going to listen to reason.

I invite you to have a look at my comments on NAS lodged today under the topic "Dick Smith and the NAS Design Safety Case". I urge you all to go and buy the mag and read the article by Dr. Neal Fulton carefully, particularly the comments relating to MBZ/CTAF alert times, enroute cruising levels and see-and-avoid.
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Old 18th Sep 2003, 20:47
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Thumbs up

Interesting timing isn’t it that the Minister for “Dick” is parading ADS-B on ABC News tonight.
He made it sound like it is in place now and will replace those antiquated RADAR’s that cost soooo much.

Worried about a lack of surveillance coverage are you “Lye Low John” ???

- No mention of the cost of nationwide ADS-B ground station installations or when or who will pay!
- No mention that **** all aircraft can use it at the moment and only in one part of QLD
- No mention of who will pay for GA/RPT fleet installation

SPIN SPIN SPIN SPIN……………..SPINING HARD as he can…!

I think I might refer to him as “The REVOLVER” from here on in!!

Careful where you point yourself “REVOLVER” you would not want to shoot your own “Richard” now would you..!!

But seriously..

QSK

I have read your post on the safety case thread and have also read the article to which you refer.
BRAVO and CONCUR. Your considered comments and those of our esteemed regular contributors are “right on” for mine.
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Old 18th Sep 2003, 22:32
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Lucky I kept all the documentation from when I was working with the LLAMP project.
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Old 19th Sep 2003, 10:56
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Wink CTAF issue

From todays (19/09/03) Australian

But Mr Anderson said the introduction of CTAF was a critical part of the National Airspace System reforms and would have a much stronger emphasis on good airmanship.

Andersons biography doesn't mention anything about a pilots licence so I am wondering what he understands by the term "good airmanship". If it comes from the dick then I know he has been fed BS.

AS for US CTAFs one thing the John and Martha show didn't point out was that the US has about 420 Towered Airports (vs Aus around 30) and that virtually all of the high speed jet RPT flies between these Airports - they don't have the situation that we have here in Australia at Broome and Uluru where Jets and lots of 210s,310s etc mix it up. Why is the redesignation of MBZs to CTAFs so critical to the reform. I can't see any cost saving there as it is only a proceedural change (for the worse in my opinion).

BTW - exactly who will putting a stronger emphasis on good airmanship?
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Old 19th Sep 2003, 15:28
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I have watched a World Class airspace and procedures system twisted and decimated for over 10 years now all because of the selfishness of one individual, the power that money provided that individual and the sychophancy of supporters with similar self-centred and arrogant attitudes.

I have witnessed the arrogant and disrespectful stupidity of this one person, with five minutes in the industry, who is hell bent on destoying what is left of a once simple and safe system. I have witnessed his disrespect to giants of the industry who have huge levels of experience, expertise and common sense. I have watched amazing orchestrations and productions of wonderfully irrelevent safety statistics to implement a system which has little application to Australia. I have watched some industry and government members prostitute themselves and bypass most of the established safety processes - what for - a 15% bonus?

I remember the safe simplicity of OCTA and CTA. Sure it had its inefficiencies however all of these were manageable to greater efficiency with far less effort compared to the cost and waste of all of these other changes - who has quantified that and why are the perpetrators not accountable.

This past ten years has a future in Four Corners. The fact that such havoc can be wrought on Australia by one minimalist qualified individual is reprehensible and an anathema to our democracy. I have no doubt whatsoever that an investigation would reveal disturbing and questionable methods to attempt to achieve endstate. It would also reveal failure to perform designated function by individuals, political or government body.

I remember the days when the value of the life of a passenger or pilot was not distinguised by the VFR or IFR.

As an idealist I have always believed that the interests of the passenger was being looked after by the politician or agency tasked with that responsibility. Sadly this has not been the case and the interests of the passenger is now being looked after by the somewhat courageous actions of certain persons employed by commercial operators, union representatives/members and ground operators.

The actions of these groups brings hope to the best of the industry - those who strive for a realistic and responsible balance between efficiency and the safety of pilots and passengers.

Last edited by KAPTAIN KREMIN; 20th Sep 2003 at 04:09.
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Old 19th Sep 2003, 23:31
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KK here here.

This latest reform of course is payment for a full page advert in a certain paper one election. This reminds me of the sickly kid at school who did not have the skills or aptitude to play the game at lunch that we were all playing and wanted to change the rules to suit himself and his band of idiots.......
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Old 20th Sep 2003, 02:39
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Thumbs up THANK you one and all

As many of you are aware the Airport Owners (AAA ) have been fighting the MBZ to CTAF(USA) changes.

Unlike other non professional pilots or ATC experts we have not questioned the enroute aspects of the NAS, though technical reading in particular the Captain B-ville And--son Report and the Unissued Report of the CASA AA and NAS IG of thier USA fact finding tour, made clear there was also concerns in this area.

I will post these reports and other relevant reports next week for others to access.

We have had numerous correspondence with the Dep PM department on the NAS terminal Airspace changes. We recieved letters from them advising that airports like Broome and Ayers Rock work well in CTAF in the USA.

Then later we were to be told via a Mr D S--th Press Release that there are no such airports in the USA and we must install a D Class Tower.

Clearly this tower idea then flows on to other major regional airports and the implications of costs are huge. Once again no thought given to data or analysis. As an engineer I personally find it amazing. Why not flip a coin save time and money.

Heads: CTAF Tails: D Tower if it stands on its edge: keep the same proven MBZ system, done now lets go and save the World.

A number of the regional airports are considering advising the Minister that if they try to impliment CTAF at major regional aiports without a site specific safety case we will close the aiports.

In view of the letter posted here and to stop the union bashing counter attack I will try to get the first letter from concerned airports out Monday.

KK I found my self having to post this comment after reading yours Mr D S--th has been kind enough to ring me on a number of occasions to discuss my concerns, though none of the correspondence we were discussing was initially addressed to him.

These chats take 1 hour plus, though my air time is usually restricted to 10 mins, the last of these chats was two days ago.

Mr D S--th kindly phoned to advise me he had told the Dep PM I was stupid and shelfish and an idiot, who was being hoodwinked by unionist and fools. He couldn't understand how a fellow entrepeneur (me) could be so naive.

I felt rather special to be so mentioned in dispatches at the highest of levels and in my absence.

Now I find I am just a Johnny come lately at the end of a long queue, are well I will console myself with the hope that my fellow fools and idiots gone ahead of me are cut with the same cloth.

We the damned, those precious precious few !!!!



KK
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Old 20th Sep 2003, 03:41
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The intention was for C17 airspace, but in reality we're getting the Nomad...again...



The politicians can blow off the concerns of the pilots, but when the airport owners start making noises and the local councils shift in their seats, life with the National Party gets very, very uncomfortable.
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Old 20th Sep 2003, 04:14
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Thumbs up

Never have so many owed so much to so few
Great to hear the voice of reason with so few dissenting opinions. Maybe people are starting to realise what it is that we're giving away. The relentless push of economic rationalism seems to make special interest groups or individuals have a disproportionally loud voice. Kitchen cabinets are formed - people are appointed to boards and change for the sake of change becomes the order of the day.

Remember the olden days when we had DCA, DOT, DOTC, DOA etc.? Then the razor gangs came through and gutted the service provider in the name of a more efficient industry (with the blessing of politicians slavering at the thought of being associated with reducing the bureaucratic overheads in the eyes of a public fed by media spin from people like Dick).

In the end we provide less service - it's certainly cheaper per movement but did we really save anything or was it a volume based change due to happen anyway? AsA is now much slimmer. I just wonder what the balance sheet looks like if you add together Airservices, CASA, DOTARS, CAGROs, contract maintenance staff (Navaiads, runways etc.) and all the airport staff around the country that used be DCA before the sell-off. I think the actual price the travelling public pays wouldn't be that much better.

Add to this the turmoil in the industry across the past 15 years and personal costs borne to the public in hidden expense such as welfare management for the massive redundancies as people were drummed out of (previously) public services and employed in private industry to perform the same tasks (often at a higher pay rate). Have we backed a winner at all?

I'd be interested to see if anyone has the wherewithall to gather some figures.

PS I didn't mind the Nomad - it's just that it was supposed to be a learjet!
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Old 21st Sep 2003, 01:15
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Slice

While John and Martha were selling the USA GA angle, to be fair after the Perth show we sat down and had a beer.

I explained Broome,Ayers etc traffic levels, Pax, a/c types Martha and John listened, asked relavent questions discussed it at length and finally said "Nope in the USA we have no such airports as CTAF" and in the USA you would have a D class towers but these are paid from aviation general revenue.

They knew the USA regional airports like the back of their hands and were very nice very motivated people.

Interestingly it was not long after their return to the east that D--S--- made the unilateral decision to put out the press release that Broome was to get tower contradicting the Dep PM and NAS IG.

I think after getting the facts John and Martha told DS that CTAF was not the answer for such large mixed use airports. They had previously advised me on the USA mainland they knew of no 737 RPT flights into non towered airports. I think they told DS that as well.

Keen GA trainers wealth of experience nice people probably being missused and not aware of the manipulations going on.

Anyway that was how I found them.
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Old 21st Sep 2003, 02:51
  #14 (permalink)  
on your FM dial
 
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“...so few dissenting [ie pro NAS] opinions”?

There are lots of dissenting [ie pro NAS] opinions.

But the majority of them are held by people who have much better things to do with their time than spend it posting here.

Here, yet again, we have an anti-NAS thread populated predominantly by contributions from air traffic controllers.

Whilst everyone is entitled to express their opinion, it concerns me that this is the professional pilots rumour network, and a casual reader might mistakenly get the impression that the plethora of anti-NAS posts from air traffic controllers are actually the anti-NAS opinions of pilots.

From my own perspective, I’d be interested to know what other pilots think about NAS. Not so much the “back in the good old days” style of post that reminisces about how good things were decades ago, nor the “gold plating” style of contribution that advocates a Rolls Royce airspace system without any regard for how much it costs, rather, I’m more interested to learn what perceived shortcomings (if any) other pilots see in NAS in regard to specific operational rules and procedures.

I have to admit to being somewhat less interested in the all-too predictable contributions from members of self promoting special interest groups like air traffic controllers.

My particular concern is that what’s in the best interests of air traffic controllers is not always precisely the same as (and in many cases is diametrically opposed to) what’s in the best interests of pilots.

The about PPRuNe page says :

Welcome to PPRuNe, The Professional Pilots RUmour Network
and

Although PPRuNe was originally set up to cater for airline pilots, as more and more people who are involved in our industry became interested in our 'network' we accommodated them with their own forums and now they are the core of the website.
and

The PPRuNe community is made up of professional pilots and people from the thousands of other professions and trades that are all a part of one of the most exciting businesses in the world. If you have an interest in the business then you should be reading PPRuNe. After a while you will learn to sort out the 'wheat from the chaff'.
I’d like to be able to easily “sort out the wheat from the chaff”.

I’d like to see some way of quickly and clearly identifying which opinions come from air traffic controllers and which opinions come from pilots.

As a suggestion, Woomera, would you consider creating a D & G Air Traffic Controllers forum where interested persons can go and flagellate themselves until their heart’s content and co-ordinate their self-interested lobbying, but from where they are less likely to distract pilots wanting to discuss topical issues with other pilots, and from where they are less likely to distract the casual reader into a mistaken belief that their consistently anti-NAS posts express the opinions of pilots.
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Old 21st Sep 2003, 04:27
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BIK - if PPRuNe is only for Professional pilots then why do you post?

If you are who others infer you are then you are certainly not and never have been a Professional Pilot. Owning your own aircraft is not a qualification for that and of course that would be, therefore, (another) arrogant and disrespectful assumption for you to make such claim. I believe one, two or more pilots who grew from GA would support that point.

BTW I am a Pilot and I was a 'PAYE' pilot so I guess that makes me a professional pilot. I did not pay for my licence, pay for my aircraft and just go for a jolly old fly and then call myself a professional pilot with the biggest and best knowledge of all things aviation. Bit different mate!

Touche' for me - but again why do you again arrogantly insult a part of the industry (ATC) when you have no qualification and clearly little knowledge of? Most ATC's I have met, have or do fly. They and the airport operators provide a valid angle and input to this debate. Why oh why should you wish to exclude them?
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Old 21st Sep 2003, 05:32
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Keg

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BIK, AIPA represents about 2300 Qantas pilots and the AFAP takes care of DJ, various parts of Qantas Link and so on. Organisations that represent 90%+ of the RPT pilots in the country reckon that NAS has significant flaws in it.

It's not my part of the ship in AIPA but I certainly trust those whose part of the ship it is.
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Old 21st Sep 2003, 16:01
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BIK
I for one state clearlly I am not a prof pilot or ATC. Yet this NAS matter should be made known to Prof pilots and I see this as a good forum to advise them and get their feed back.

I am an aiport Engineer. From KK post you have not displayed your back ground, so do tell.
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Old 21st Sep 2003, 16:37
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WELCOME BACK!!!

Dear BIK,

Thanks for finally wading in. It was with a heavy heart that I read all the supporting opinions in this thread - mind you I never for a moment considered that mine or the other opinions posted before your vitriolic spray of fertiliser indicating that the professional users of the airspace aren't entitled to a say, was the ONLY opinion.

Of course different viewpoints will be there depending what your usage is. I just can't reconcile a system where you do whatever you want whilst the RPTs pay for it. There's plenty of scope for you to pull on your terry-towelling hat and strap on your kneeboard before going flying for free. You can't do everything for free - be satisfied with a balance that ensures that someone will come looking for you when you don't cancel your SARtime (indeed that there's somewhere for you to lodge your SARtime), and equally when you do go flying at 70KTS true, the SAAB running up your arse gets reasonable warning before the flysh!t on the windscreen sprouts wings.

In the words of Tobzalp "Grow up". The 6000 odd pilots and controllers whose signatures are behind the letter to the Minister should be entitled to a say.

PS I may not be a pilot but I am professional. Don't forget it.
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Old 21st Sep 2003, 20:32
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Bindick_116.8

Well, well, well, didn't take long for that tried and true tactic of yours- SHOOT THE MESSENGER- to surface, did it? It must really gall you that the internet allows an infomation flow that can't be stifled by power and influence. Really, really sticks in the craw, doesn't it? Do you ever feel embarrassed when you re-read your posts? You've tried, spin, misinformation etc to try and change the system, and now that the wheels are falling off (which as an aside, if you had listened to the professional pilots and others would never have got this far with this farce) you're lashing out. Shame that the letter comes from AIPA and AFAP as well. Sort makes you look, well, petulent and silly. BTW......

“...so few dissenting [ie pro NAS] opinions”?

There are lots of dissenting (not just ATC) opinions.

But the majority of them are held by people who have much better things to do with their time than spend it posting here.

Here, yet again, we have an anti-NAS thread populated predominantly by contributions from wealthy gents with country estates.

Whilst everyone is entitled to express their opinion, it concerns me that this is the professional pilots rumour network, and a casual reader might mistakenly get the impression that the plethora of pro-NAS posts from yourself are actually the pro-NAS opinions of PROFESSIONAL pilots.

From my own perspective, I’d be interested to know what other pilots think about NAS. Not so much the “back in the good old days” style of post that reminisces about how good things were in the USA, nor the “tin plating” style of contribution that advocates a safe airspace system without any regard for how little it really costs, rather, I’m more interested to learn what perceived shortcomings (other than the many already pointed out) other pilots see in NAS in regard to specific operational rules and procedures.

I have to admit to being somewhat less interested in the all-too predictable contributions from members of self promoting special interest groups like wealthy gents with country estates.

My particular concern is that what’s in the best interests of wealthy gents with country estates is not always precisely the same as (and in many cases is diametrically opposed to) what’s in the best interests of PROFESSIONAL pilots.

The about PPRuNe page says :



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to PPRuNe, The Professional Pilots RUmour Network
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



and


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Although PPRuNe was originally set up to cater for airline pilots, as more and more people who are involved in our industry became interested in our 'network' we accommodated them with their own forums and now they are the core of the website.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



and


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The PPRuNe community is made up of professional pilots and people from the thousands of other professions and trades that are all a part of one of the most exciting businesses in the world. If you have an interest in the business then you should be reading PPRuNe. After a while you will learn to sort out the 'wheat from the chaff'.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I’d like to be able to easily “sort out the wheat from the chaff”.

I’d like to see some way of quickly and clearly identifying which opinions come from wealthy gents with country estates and which opinions come from PROFESSIONAL pilots.

As a suggestion, Woomera, would you consider creating a D & G Wealthy Gents with Country Estates forum where interested persons can go and flagellate themselves until their heart’s content and co-ordinate their self-interested lobbying, but from where they are less likely to distract PROFESSIONAL pilots wanting to discuss topical issues with other PROFESSIONAL pilots, and from where they are less likely to distract the casual reader into a mistaken belief that their consistently pro-NAS posts express the opinions of PROFESSIONAL pilots.

And Bindick, just for the record, I am a private pilot, too.

Last edited by ferris; 21st Sep 2003 at 20:44.
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Old 22nd Sep 2003, 04:30
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Binnie mate...

Just doing a little investigative journalism here. Have a quick look at BIK 116.8's profile

Location: Bindook
Interests: Morse Code
Occupation: Navigation Aid
Forgive me for stating the blatantly obvious but this doesn't appear to qualify for either a CPL or PPL. What's the story Binnie?

PS BIK VOR/DME owned and operated by Airservices Australia (Who's a special interest group now? Don't get much more specialised than that!)
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