Not sure about figures but i was chatting to HR when they phoned to confirm my pass of stage 3, and they told me that last year they had 45,000 applicants and took 134 to college. Of these roughly 2/3 will pass college, and 3/4 will validate.

Having said that, on tower visits to LGW and LHR i was told that their failure rates on validation are much higher than other aerodromes becuase they have a harder job- around 50% fail! guess that's what you get paid more for though.

So out of 45,000 applicants last year roughly 60 people will become ATCOs- so that's about 0.1% of applicants!

3% is far too high over all- that would be 1350 a year validating as full ATCOs- and its nothing like that in reality,

134 places per year at the college sounds right... figures between 10 and 45 thousand applicants have been mooted around, as someone previously pointed out, a fair amount of people may apply and never show up for the tests.

For what its worth, numbers I heard through the selection process :E

Stage 1 - 90% fail
Stage 2 - 33% fail
Stage 3 - 33% fail
College - 30-40% fail
Live Training - 30-40% fail

Lies, damn lies, and statistics?? :hmm:

If you failed at a point subsequent to the selection process, during training so at college, or during validation, if you failed, are you allowed to re-apply for the trainee role from scratch going through S1/2/3 again the following year?

College Failures
 

The stats are worrying, yet not surprising. I would imagine alot of people apply for the position not quite knowing what it entails. the job description on monster was along the lines of 5 GCSE's, Under 35 (i think) and Earn 40k+, so id expect alot of people have a shot of applying without really understanding the dedication or ability required, so the large Stage1 fail rate doesnt surprise me. I mean, the poor guy on friday who asked to leave the test after 2 exams just goes to show...did he not READ the email? There was nothing in that test that the invite didnt pre-empt already. But i suppose stage 1 is geared for this purpose.

My sole worry at the moment is the Failure rate for the College (which Nats publish as 60%) and why this happens? THEN the failure to Validate. Could anyone shed some light on why validations can fail, and what options are there for TATCOs that fail validation.

Hi Seb,

Was at your stage 2, I see you booked your stage 3 for 7 Oct. I also got through and am going down for my stage 3 that day. Did you find out how the other people did?

How you finding your prep for it? Looking through the competencies, some wierd ones in there. How do you display emotional stability and numerical awareness??? Should hopefully be ok though!!

Have you booked a visit anywhere yet? I'm thinking of going to Manchester to see both areas soonish.

Also ddo you remember if we were told that there are only 4 people in each stage 3?

Well done anyway dude!!

Paul

The 3% statistic is off the NATS website, its the number who get through all 3 stages of selection (not the number of validating ATCO's). See Application process - Jobs and careers at NATS and look under the medical/security clearance tab.

I find it hard to believe that 45,000 or even 10,000 people apply each year. That seems like an extremely high number to me. I read somewhere else that it was more like 5000, which fits the 3% selection pass statistic perfectly if roughly 150 people are starting at the college each year.

Probably true ;)

Hi Paul and Sebby.
I was at stage 2 with you guys as well. i was the one that had done stage one twice. ive got stage 3 on 28th of oct, i want to prepare as much as possible. paul i am pretty certain that there will be six at stage 3. I dont know if they split us into two groups for the group task tho. does anyone know?
well done for getting through!
olly

I was on a visit to Southampton tower the other day and they employ a number of ATCO Assistants. These are people who assist the active ATCO's in a number of ways, carrying out many tasks that an ATCO would also carry out, but they don't have a valid radar licence and aren't allowed to talk directly to pilots on the radio. I asked them about how you become an ATCO Assistant and they said that NATS generally fulfil their requirement for this role by recruiting ATCO's who have failed to validate or pass the college course, presumably because such people have already had much of the necessary training. So that's one possibility that might be open if the you fail at a later stage... otherwise I wouldn't know.

You could always try contacting HR and see what they say.

Cottam approach

Quote:

"You cannot draw comparisons with GCSE's and stage 1. Stage 1 is an aptitude test and check of motivation".

Why not?

You may be right but the fact still remains - at least for 50% (Motivation Paper & SDT questions) of stage 1 paper tests, you HAVE TO LEARN to pass.

Every form of test/exam is a check of motivation/ability anyway. If one is NOT motivated in their GCSE's, A' Levels or Degrees to work hard at it, FAILURE is inevitable.

Moreover, another qualified ATCO at Swanwick said in this forum that, even though he now has his tickets, he still CANNOT do cubes but got through all the stages; tests, college, validation through incessant practice.

Except I misunderstoond you, practising for these tests as you would do in any exam (GCSE's or not) would GREATLY improve your chances of success.

pugwash4x4
 

Hi pugwash4X4,

Would you be scared then to be posted to Heathrow to validate considering the unfavourable success rates for validation?

By the way, can u pls elaborate on how u went abt arranging visits for LGW and LHR?

tnx

Hell no, would be a great challenge- just means you have to work a bit harder. the harder (if that's the right word- busier maybe?) grades (ie jobs) get paid more anyway- and its only fair that the guys who HAVE to work harder get paid more.
I waited until i'd passed Stage 2 and contacted both NATS HR and the units directly- i ended up speaking to the same person :) found the link through from NATS helped the process immeasurably though.

as to initial stage 1 applications- well when i did stage 1 there were 120 in one afternoong being processed. Say 200/day. Rough guess say 20 application days per month (being based on 6 days/month at 3 locations around the country), thats 4000 applicants per month, with 12 months of applications. 48,000 in total!

i don't think its unreasonable to expect 48,000 applicants over a year!

aerodrome or area
 

been on the phone to HR and i have found out that i now have the choice of choosing between the aero course starting jan or the area course starting feb.
Its a big decision to make, and i am leaning to one side, but i just thought it would be interesting to see what any of you guys on here made of it and what your preference would be if you were in my shoes.
I know i am probably opening up the old aero vs area war here...lol

Who did you speak with in HR? I found out a few weeks ago that the January aero course in January was booked. I just called now again, to make sure, and they said that it is completely booked.

Should I contact HR
 

Hey guys I did my stage one almost 3 weeks ago. Should I contact them or do you think there is just a delay thanks. Anyone else waiting this long :confused:

Bear in mind that every unit has its challenges and the work load at Heathrow could be argued to be just as high as at Gatwick - which holds the title of busiest single runway airport in the world, and the ATCOs there have to work very hard especially in peak times to maintain an expeditious flow of inbounds and outbounds on just one runway - whereas at Heathrow I believe there are several ATCOs working the aerodrome controller position, so less workload individually, as well as Heathrow no doubt being at the forefront of new equipment, making the ATCOs jobs there easier, which may take a while to be introduced to less busy units.

It is similar to the London airport approach/director positions which are all a LTC at Swanwick - Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, City and Luton. They are all band 5 pay (top of the scale), yet City and Luton are much quieter than LHR and LGW, yet get paid the same.....:};)

Tehvron I did my stage one 3 weeks ago and just got the email to say that I had passed :) so check your email again.

Blimey, 120 in one day! Where did you have your S1?

There can't have been more than 20 people max when I did mine at the CTC the other week.

Ooo, I just got my invitation to Stage 2! Very excited, I think I had resigned myself to the fact that I'd failed the online tests and so hadn't got past stage 1 (windows cleaners began banging on my door half way through the calculations...)

Right, now to browse these pages again to find out what stage 2 really involves! From what other people have said I see there's not much people think that can be done for preparation, but does anyone have any advice other than sleep well the night before?

I have no idea which date to choose, suddenly I feel very very busy! All my weekends seem busy and I want time to prepare before I go... but then again if there isn't much to do to prepare then maybe it doesn't matter that mugh :bored:


(And thank you everyone here. I would have been so much more clueless without you all! :ok:)

No you won't be able to. If you get chopped it's because they have decided that you won't be able to validate or pass the college course. They wouldn't then invest more money in you by training you once again after deciding against it the first time. You would normally get offered a recourse or a chance to re-sit a validation board.

Olliey and Paul
 

Guys congrats!!!

I was wondering how everyone did. So thats 4 of us that i know passed! Adrian passed aswell and has his stage 3 on the 7th aswell as u and me paul! Olliey shame u didn't book the same day!

I am in the process of booking Stansted.

Paul did you sit next to the girl or Ollie? Sorry just trying to remember which one you are lol

Its awesome that so many of us got through, just 2 others to find out from. According to the fail rate they would have failed.... supposedly!

Seb

Not quite true.....While there are more ATCOs working at Heathrow than Gatwick at any one time, it doesn't mean that the individual workload is lower, nor does it mean that all the traffic is spread out evenly amongst them. A simple calculation of number of aircraft divided by number of ATCOs doesn't tell one anything. As for equipment, the most radical new piece of equipment (electronic strips) was actually introduced first at Stansted and Gatwick before Heathrow.

regarding stage 2, is there an interview? or is it purely tests?

Gonzo
I stand corrected! :)

Its computer tests, 7-8 hour day at NATS HQ. Read the thread for details.

I've not sat mine yet, but from what everyone says there isn't a lot you can do to prepare for stage 2. There's also not a lot of info available about what it involves, though you may find a bit on these forums. There was a bit of info on the FEAST tests on wikipedia a while ago, but it has since been removed (presumably by Eurocontrol). I think you have to sign a non-disclosure agreement or something like that when you sit the FEAST tests, so no-one is allowed to talk about its content.

The HR lady at my stage 1 told us that the best prep you can do for stage 2 was to commit to some serious playstation time (I kid you not) and to make sure you are well rested for the day itself. I've been trying to find games that test similar abilities to those that the tests are designed to. I don't know how directly relevent these are, but can't do any harm and they are quite fun. Check out:

Multitask | Armor Games - really fun multitasking game (my top score so far is 263 - I have played this far far too much)

DACHSER Global Player Reloaded - this is a logistics game that also pushes your multitasking, fast thinking and reactions

Set Daily Puzzle - fun puzzle game involving sorting objects by shape, size, colour etc.

ATC-SIM: a web-based air traffic control simulator - free browser based atc simulator. Not 100% realistic, but a lot of fun (be careful, this can eat hours of your day before you realise it)

Air Traffic Controller - Free Online Game on FavPlay - another free atc sim, spoilt a little by the stupid pop-up man who yells at you and gives you "pay-cuts" if you loose seperation


If anyone who has sat Stage 2 has a little more detail about what the tests actually involve I'd really appreciate it - even if there's nothing to do to prepare I know I'll feel a lot more confident if I have some idea what is going to be thrown at me.

That multitask game is nails!

Does Batman - Arkham Asylum count as playstation time!!?

Thanks Tim :). Perhaps it is only at Eurocontrol you have to sign the agreement, they put something about it on wikipedia as their excuse for deleting all the data.

Out of interest, do NATS only use part of the FEAST test or all of it? The NATS website also mentions that you sit some of NATS own computer tests, and the SDM test. Any info on these?

Just scored 286! Yeah baby!

Pat42
 

If i told you exactly what it involved it would probably put you off more than do any good in your attempts to prepare for what i would have told you. It is better not knowing whats coming. You can't prepare so as i've said before just look forward to the experience. I enjoyed the day!

You get a free lunch!

Hope you don't get sent to a Band 4 or less unit then matey; and you're working your arse off as a trainee; and its been found out that you've made comments like that. You won't get much sympathy!! I don't know, not even at the bloody college and the ego is out already.

I think you'll find that every unit has a busy times; and that some are well higher up the complexity table than others, but get paid less.

Not that I want to start a Band war but in the old days you did Tower at the college first, then moved onto Area - because Twr was easier and quicker to validate on, plus some units you actually did all disaplines. If your theory is correct then no Tower should get paid more than any Area Centre, so LHR should be Band 4 or lower against MACC/Scottish (NPC if you like)

And; in the European Area complexity tables produced by Eurocontrol;
1. London TC
2. Zurich ACC
3. Frankfurt ACC
4. Manchester ACC
blah blah blah
28. Swanwick ACC

So Swanwcik should be Band 4 or less too

Its all peaks and troughs, numbers of aircraft etc that works out the pay in the end (plus Swanwick has more Union members that voted for the banding blah blah blah :bored:)

In the end:
LHR gets the money coz it's the flagship Twr, Swanwick gets the money likewise Area; and the college gets Band 5 coz it needs to attract people to teach trainees.

As MACC, you'll know where I stand on it all ;)

I think someone asked me when I sat S1. I was there on 17th August.

I've got S2 on the 30th of this month. Anyone else got it that day? Should be a good laugh anyway! I hope they have those old BBC PC style games again. They took me on a lovely trip down memory lane!

Anyone else a pilot too? I want to find a cross country buddy.

Or because business needs dictated that they needed you there. You can see that banding is flawed by the fact that Manchester ACC is the fourth most complex piece of airspace in Europe and is only a band 4.

Quote:

The HR lady at my stage 1 told us that the best prep you can do for stage 2 was to commit to some serious playstation time (I kid you not) and to make sure you are well rested for the day itself.

Well honestly, I am not surprised and she is most probably right. One ATC i read abt on the net said the job is like playing a 'computer game' so if u enjoy playing computer games, then u wud enjoy it - just that with being an ATC, u get paid for doing it!

Well honestly, I am not surprised and she is most probably right. One ATC i read abt on the net said the job is like playing a 'computer game' so if u enjoy playing computer games, then u wud enjoy it - just that with being an ATC, u get paid for doing it!

...only thing is you can't lose...and there is no reset button if you do!

Stage 3 experience
 

I had my stage 3 recently so here is a short list of things that might come handy to somebody else. Sorry if this has been posted somewhere, I just thought a recent info might help.

1) Six participants per day.
2) The HR people say it is not a competition and that if everybody is fit, everybody passes. If you actually trust them in this, that's up to you.
3) First, there is the traffic game. There is a board with a plan of a city and each participant is given their own task - planning a bus route meeting certain conditions. When you are done, you have 1 minute to present your solution to the others. Then the group is given a common task which they have to incorporate whilst trying to keep as much of the individual routes as possible. Then the group is asked to evaluate how it went and if they succeeded. Each individual also must state how the big scenario screwed up his own route. Now the important thing: The HR's apparently do not care at all about your solution. They can hardly see the board from their positions, they make no notes about locations of the bus stops etc. The real trick is that the game is there just to introduce a situation where you must cooperate, communicate etc. Therefore you do not win this if you have the best bus route but if you do not behave like an idiot.
4) The interview - the HR people do not know a thing about ATC (or maybe some general popular knowledge at best). It is really hard to judge what exactly they are lookign for during the interview but be prepared that knowing the UK AIP by heart is not gonna win the game for you. You should be able to demonstrate some very general knowledge of the topic like that there are radars and various units servicing various sectors etc. Nobody's gonna ask you about pecularities of a PAR approach.
5) There is a list of areas the interview will be about. The interviewers are looking for real life examples of your behaviour in situations illustrating those personal traits. They want specific examples. Stuff like "this happens to me often and I generally do this..." is not right. What they wanted over and over again is a story like "I was doing X the other day and Y happened, so I did Z."
6) They have a list of questions they use to examine your story closely. They are especially - how did you feel about the situation, what was the outcome of the situation, what obstacles did you need to overcome. Be prepared to answer those.

And yeah - rumours only :)

Flaps
 

Thanks for telling us about your experience, i shall prepare with that in mind. How do you think you did, let us know your result!

Seb

thanks Flaps15
 

hey there,

thanks for sharing
how do you feel after all? it's a relief now, huh?:]
can you write me one example question what's asked on the interview?

thank you again + fingers crossed. of course.

Thanks for the great post Flaps15, if I pass S2 this will be hugely helpful.

And Best of luck to you!

I don't know if it is really a "relief", it was quite an OK experience, nothing to be nervous about.
If it went OK I don't know - I am not completely sure what they are looking for. I feel good about it but that does not matter too much, does it ;-)

Uhm... example question.
- Can you tell us about a situation where you had to work under pressure?
- A story about having to meet a certain deadline being told.
- What did you do to overcome the stress?
- Several measures named.
- How did it influence your work?
- Several negative impaxcts named.

and so on. Take the list of possible topics provieded by NATS and that's it - they basically ask a direct question about each of those and then go on with more detailed questions about what you did to fight the situation, how it influenced you, how you felt and what the outcome was. It is a repeating pattern.

Pay Bands
 

Hi Everyone,

The current forum discussion has had some centred around pay bands and responsibility.

My question is, in terms of career progression that could potentially lead to the over 90K that NATS talk abt at Heathrow and Swanwik, I was wondering where would be the better of the two and the sort of timeframe we are looking at to be earning that much?