Sorry to hear that Vic154. I could be wrong but in terms of the aptitude tests I dont think the pass mark is particularly high. I took and passed my stage 1 a couple of months ago but I remember thinking that I must have failed as I only managed to get through about half of the questions on each of the three sections. If you are confident in the accuracy of the 30ish questions that you answered for each section then you probably did enough to pass.

I know you can get booted out on the basis of your answers given on the online personality test that they set between the 1st and 2nd stage, so I imagine that they could also boot you out based on your answers from the stage 1 personality test. The idea that they can dismiss you this way without actually meeting you is crazy in my opinion but unfortunately this seems to be the case. I think they are probably testing your honesty more than anything else though so if you want my opinion for next time, answer the questions quickly with your gut instinct. As soon as you start pondering an answer, you start thinking about what you think they want to hear and thats when you start answering inconsistently and get caught out.

Good luck for next time!!

Rejection!
 

Thanks for the posts guys, especially Paul, much appreciated. I spoke to a guy who's recently come through the course and told him a few of the answers I put for the personality test and he was like "why did you put that?!" so think that could have been it. I think going for your gut feeling is definitely the way to go for next year! 360 days to go....

If anyone else has done stage one recently it would be great if you also have some feedback from how their stage one went, good or bad. See my earlier post!

Cheers

Vic

Vic - a friend of mine who was in the same position as you in March time (failed on the personality interview) last week got an email inviting him to re-apply because they were in need of applicants.

Based on that, your 360 days may be far less... :)

Just wondered if anyone can shed any light on what happened to me with NATS as I am still confused.

I attended a stage 2 interview at the beginning of April and then promptly went on holiday. While away I received the results, which consisted of one email telling me I had been successful and been invited to Stage 3. Then a second email telling me that I had been sent the first one in error.

Has this happened to anyone else ? I have emailed and left voicemails for NATS HR department since, but no-one has had the courtesy to explain to me what happened? Or even provide feedback about which part was the problem, the interview, the computer tests or motivation paper.

Thanks

HR Emails
 

Hi,

This happend to me last year but the other way around. I was sent an email saying I hadn't passed the first stage and was then sent another straight away saying that the first was sent in error and I had passed. In my case, the second email was correct.

Hope that helps, though it might not be what you want to hear. :bored:

Last Friday I completed my personality questionnaire, having just logged on it says the stage of my application is under consideration; however I got the rejection email. I rung HR they said I failed on the personality questionnaire. How the hell can you refuse to give someone a chance in ATC based on those questions? It’s bewildering! It says at the start of the paper there are no right and wrong answers, that’s just rubbish. I don't believe anyone can base a decent profile of someone without even seeing them. They are struggling to find ATC officers, no wonder, when in my opinion they are refusing applicants who are more than able to do the job solely based on questions on that paper. Can anyone explain this crazy application process of refusing applicants who did well in the aptitude tests and somehow "failed" the personality questionnaire?
:mad:

Shipway,

I am no expert on this, but I believe that the questionnaires are in place in order to ascertain how you approach learning, problems, life etc. When I was going through the selection, it was the one thing that I wasn't worried about failing on. This wasn't because I knew I would pass, but, if I didn't it meant NATS thought I would have struggled as a controller and may have given up my career only to fail as one.

Try not to be to disheartened, as it is certainly not your intelligence that let you down on this occasion.

Regards,

RO13ERTS

shipway,

Psychometric testing features in many job selection procedures, the military, the Police force, I even heard in the news over the weekend that it is to be introduced as part of the driving test, and those who demonstrate a 'poor driving personality' will require more tuition before going through to the test itself.

I went through the NATS selection process in 1997. In recent years I have worked with our HR Recruitment team on a regular basis, with weekly contact with at least one of the team.

While up until a few years ago the psychometric 'testing' that was undertaken was not a pass/fail hurdle, it is now. The current tests are similar to those I sat ten years ago. Now, this is my own opinion, but it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that someone has sat down and collated all the data from the eight or more years of 'non-assessed' psychometric data, and cross referenced those results against the subsequent performance of each trainee ATCO. If trends were identified, for example if 'failures' tended to give a certain answer to certain questions, and successes tended to likewise give a certain answer to other certain questions, why shouldn't that data be used to determine selection?

I wasn't enthused by the personality questionnaire either. I could have answered either way for plenty of questions, so those answers would have by no means been constants for my behaviour or my attitude. I definitely wouldn't want my ability to get through stages 2 and 3, and then the college, to be based on the answers to questions such as those.

Shipway,

There isn't a struggle to find people who WANT to be ATCO's there's a struggle to find suitable qualified people with the right temperament and aptitude who can go on to validate. I am no HR expert but personality plays a big part in becoming an ATCO at many stages. If you're serious about it, learn from it and prepare yourself ready for next time. Many people who are now valid were successful on 2nd and 3rd attempts.

I can see the use of the personality questionnaires, especially for the face to face interview process, but I don't think it should be a reason to boot someone off. As an earlier post said, some of the questions were such fine lines, and I often thought do I want to give the obvious answer, thinking that NATS would then grill me if I looked too "perfect". In my opinion, if you have the intelligence, as shown in the aptitude test, then I think that at least warrants a ten minute interview to give you a chance to prove your motivation for the job.

Basically I think a five minute interview will tell NATS more about a person than them filling in some form for 40 minutes which they could easily make up the answers for. I spent a bit of money last week, travelling up to London, a hotel the night before, it would have been nice to have had an interview in order to give myself a real shot at the role. I'm not bitter....honest!

Vic154,

Any selection process had flaws and will eliminate some candidates who would have done well if they'd got through. I'm sure that the opposite applies to some people as well.
It feels like crap (I know!) but just try again and be honest next time.
With the feedback issue, it was possible to find which part you'd failed but that may have changed now.
Good luck:)

Personality questionnaire
 

I’m sorry but I don't agree that personality plays a big part, its simple down to intelligence and initiative to do the job. The job is not that stressful or even that difficult with all the procedures and technology in place now. How does 'I compete to win' 'I believe in traditional methods' or 'I like to analyse peoples behaviour' got anything to do with whether you can do ATC or not. The tests are fine, they see if you or intelligent enough and quick enough to cope with being trained, I've no problem with that. But surely the best way to gain a profile about someone is to meet him or her face to face, nothing more nothing less. Why not do that? Money and time I think is the answer!

I got 2 mates in the police, they never had to do the questionnaire, they had to do tests and hey guess what after that, an interview!

I know a lad that didn't get in with NATS so went to the military now about to become a validated ATC seems like that’s the best place to go to do the job you know full well your capable of doing.

I could sit that questionnaire over and over again and still fail, cause I just don't know what I did wrong, too honest probably, infact how could I do anything wrong the instructions say there are no right and wrong answers.

You want to see if someone has the right temperament to be trained, I say see them, not give them 108 stupid repetitive questions which don't really mean anything certainly not too ATC anyway!

I just did the test today at Manchester and the funny thing is, the personality test that I did, doesn't seem to be the same as everyone else's.

The one I did only had 40 questions and there were 2 statements. I just had to select which I thought suits me better.

e.g.

I like to plan ahead or I take problems as they come

I felt that the test I did was quite reasonable as it shows to NATS what kind of person I am. Wasn't too bad in my opinion.

One question however, there was a question about an aircraft having a failure and you have to select a suitable airport x nm away. To my calculation, the aircraft could make them all, so do you select the airport that is so far that the aircraft would be 10nm, 20nm away when it reaches sea level.

Vic154,

You'd be surprised how accurate the psychometrics are, especially at finding out those who try and play the system and give answers they think we're looking for(!) Also, imagine if I interviewed you for five minutes, and then decided you had failed. How many appeals would we then get saying that five minutes was not nearly enough time for me to get a decent, overall picture of your personality and suitability for the job?

Yes, in many interviews the interviewer will have made a judgement in the first five to ten minutes. The mark of a good interview, and interviewer, is to then use the remaining time to search for both evidence to back that up, and evidence to contradict that. Sometimes the judgement is borne out by the evidence, sometimes not.

shipway,

Oh gosh, it most certainly is not just 'simply down to intelligence and initiative to do the job'. If that is truly what you believe, than to be honest I don't think ATC is the career for you. I know plenty of people who have the mind to do my job, most of them to a far higher standard I would imagine, but not the personality to go with it.
Oh, of course, it's incredibly easy. How silly of me to find last Monday in the tower one of the hardest days I've ever worked, I came away from it feeling exhausted and 'frazzled', for want of a better word, mostly due to an hour's session of Ground Movement Control that I was only just hanging on to. But please do come in to work with me next time and tell me where I was going wrong. My personality is such that I actually welcome criticism, constantly strive for improvement in my own technique, and will not think twice about having another go at the same situation to test myself again.
As with any selection process, the first few hurdles are more blunt than the last few. Last I heard there were 18,000 applicants at various stages of the process (including those that had just failed...I have to be honest and say I'm not sure how far back those figures go..). It is just impossible to see every one of them face to face. To do so would mean there would be no ATCOs doing their day job, they'd all be pulling days for Recruitment! Not to mention we'd go bust within a week!

As regards the police, perhaps it varies from force to force, but the constabulary selection process I'm aware of certainly does make use of psychometric evaluation, and most certainly within the force for candidates wanting to transfer to certain branches. I don't mean they use the same test as us, but a similar profile will be built up on each applicant.

Passion
 

The question that sticks in my mind is the one about whether I'd view a situation/problem "dispassionately", or go wading in and get involved. My honest instinct was to go with "dispassionate" despite thinking the word unfair, as I don't always sit back regarding everything around me with cold mechanical indifference.

Even as I marked it down I thought, "there goes my ATCO application out the window". Is there a "pass mark" on the personality questionnaire or do certain questions have more influence than others? Fortunately, I was useless on the cubes which I'm sure led to my failure, but of all the tests that day I was least comfortable with the personality questions. It almost seemed to consist of trick questions compared with the others, so perhaps that's a sign I'm not cut out to be an ATCO?

Personality tests
 

Having done a degree in Psychology, such tests that NATS use to assess one's personality traits have been repeatedly found to be accurate and stem from personality gurus like Eysenck, McCrae and Costa (Google them to find out more!) They can certainly tell you more about an individual's personalit traits with those 'stupid, repetitive' questions than a 5 minute interview. What they also do is eliminate any unconscious bias by the interviewer based on anything from gender to body size to accent etc. (I think unconscious is important here, not saying that any interviewers are purposely biased!)
Also, intelligence isn't the be all and end all, if so, I could honestly say that any of my graduate friends could pass the seection process with ease but I know that they wouldn't have the specific traits that NATS are looking for.
Some may say I'm biased as I recently got through the selection process. However, it was my 2nd attempt as I failed 1st time round so I know how it feels to be rejected. Upon meeting a few of the HR people, it was emphasised that personality was important and there were specific traits that they were looking for which is understandable as there is absolutely no point in recruiting someone who doesn't show consistency or a hint of the aspects of personality that they are after.
I'll be quiet now :)

Shipway,

You can disagree that personality doesn't play a huge part but try listening to what people who work at units are telling you. I know of people who were able to control but were chopped or failed because of bad attitude or a personality that didn't lend itself to teamwork. There are no wrong or right answers to each of those personality profiling questions because it is only the overall profile which builds a picture of you. Lots of people try to put down the 'right answer' unaware of how that will not work for them.

A recruitment manager once asked me if there was a queue at a two lane approach to a roundabout and I wanted to go left. Would I sit in the left lane and wait for the queue to move along, or nip down the right lane, doing one loop of the roundabout and then making the turn? You might think they 'want' to hear you would follow the rules, sit and wait and do things properly. But the people who pick the other option, breaking no rules whatsoever, generally have some component of what it takes to be an ATCO.

Comparisons with the police and military ATC are not much use as the police tests are very easy (yes, I have and did pass them and turned down a place with a force for NATS) and military ATC do a much different job. Only up to a 4 aircraft at a time in area but in very challenging and complex circumstances.

Is it just me or does it seem the people who have passed the personality tests say that they are useful, and the people who failed saying they aren't useful. I apparently got a high score, so I suppose I should be happy.
People who know more about psychology, such as Steffi and the people who set the tests say they are very successful. Although I suppose they will always say that, as it gives them more work.
I imagine that they probably could help determine who would be useful at a job, although Im not sure people should fail on them until they are interviewed by a professional HR person and go through it again, as then factors like body languague could come into play to help get more accurate results.

rameses, you sound very cynical. you'd fit in well! :ok:

Here's a cheeky one. Please take with a pinch of salt.

Does NATS look good on a CV to an Airline employer ?

And is it common to see ATCOs with a commercial licence jumping ship off to a flying job ?

Ta

h.h.

On the flip side to the question above, does anyone know what NATS thinks of applicants who have a PPL and maybe were going on to do futher training to gain their Commercial licence/ATPL but then decided it was not for them? And instead wanted to be a ATCO?

Ed

Swanwick / West Drayton
 

Hi AK5294,

In response to your question last week, I'd recommend visiting both Swanwick & West Drayton if you possibly can as I found they were both very useful but different. It was good having seen the area control in Swanwick, to then see the approach controllers at work. I had very different experiences at both and I think that the more you try to see on your own, the better bit looks as it shows you've put the effort in and really have the interest. I now just hope I can go and visit a tower soon!
:\

Just a note for anyone reading regarding unit visits.....definitely try to get one. Ideally, like billy girl, go on a few to get an idea of the different types of ATC. But bear in mind that it doesn't have to be a NATS unit.....so billy girl, if you're struggling perhaps Oxford might be an idea (hope I'm not teaching you to suck eggs!)

And of course, for my area ATCO colleagues who are no doubt reading, as soon as you step into a tower you'll see that that's where the proper ATC is done.... :E:ok:

That's great thanks! I actually live in Oxford and am heading to Brize Norton in a couple of weeks so I'm hoping that will help too!

On another note, do you know where I could find any sample questions to practice things like "If an aircraft runs out of fuel 60 miles from an airport..."? I know I passed that bit before but not due to my answers on those questions and could do with doing a couple before I take part 2 again!

Has anyone ever heard of anyone not getting past stage one and getting an email a few months down the line inviting them to re-apply? I know this can happen with people who fail at stage two so was just wondering. I don't want to wait a year....:sad:

From A New Recruit!
 

Big Eddie,
I was part way sponosred by a major helicopter company 5 years ago, the first JAA CPL course in fact so doing the ATPL exams. Had half the flying and half the exams out of the way when I had to return home due to an illness in the family, which in turn developed into my own personal struggle against anxiety when flying (according to the medical folks as a result of the stress I had gone through). Had already got a fixed wing PPL too. Spent the last few years trying to get back in the cockpit then realised I wanted to persue a career in another interest of mine, so applied to NATS at the start of this year, and after going to Belfast last week for stage 3, got a call last Friday saying I was in, should be on the september course. So to answer your question, I don't see why you (if it's you you refer to) should not be considered. At my interview last week the fact I'd passed 6 ATPL exams wasn't even mentioned


On another note, thanks to all those who provided useful info on the recruitment process here. Every time I've needed input or advice over the last few years I've always found some great stuff and professionals to pass down their experteese, though we have to ignore some people's stuff now and again........ Medical permitting, looking forward to working with you all who are already there, and maybe shout you a beer if our paths come together! (and well done to Gastra who had the stage 3 experience with me!!) :ok: :) :{ :E :eek:

Hello all,
I wish i'd been told about this site a couple of weeks ago, I've just done the stage 1 tests in Manchester today and it would have been a real help. Never mind I think/hope I did OK. Although, like a few people before me have said, I ran out of time before finishing the 3 aptitude tests, I was thinking I rather get the ones I did do correct rather than rush through and mess it up.
One thing thats slightly worrying me is that most the people posting on this thread seem to be graduates, and I'm not! Do many non-graduates get through the selection process or am I too stoopid!?:confused:
Also does anyone know the best way to go about organising a visit to the tower at Birmingham Airport?

Hi There,

Just wanted to say a big thanks for all the advice that people have provided me with on this forum.
I have got through my stage three and providing i pass the medical i start in September.Im really excited:}
Thanks Simfly...well done to you too.I had fun in Belfast with you and the other candidate.
If anyone needs any advice on anything related tothe process i will try and help if i can...just pm me.

The best of luck to everyone who has stages looming.

Won Ton,

No need to be a graduate at all. There's plenty who aren't on our course (myself included) and it doesn't make you stoooopid. :ok:

Splendid! Thats a relief. Thanks smellysnelly!:)

Won_ton,

Quite a few of us do not have degrees. It doesn't mean you're stupid. It just means you didn't go to uni!:ok:

Hi there,

I recently applied for NATS and have kinda been following this thread from the word go. Recently had Stage 1 in ManC and have since been informed I've not cut the mustard.

Im gutted. Absolutely gutted. I'm kind of at a bit of a loss too coz i naively thought I'd breeze stage 1, did loads of prep for it, yet, depsite my efforts and subtle confidence i have apparently crashed and burned. What is most frustrating is i have no idea where or how i went wrong. :ugh:

I came out feeling like i may have blown it purely down to the diagrammatical reasoning test. I felt all the other tests, including the cubes, went well (i think?? but will never truely know as its not like i can get feedback...) but i only managed 33 out of 50 on the diagrammatic reasoning Qs.

I just feel really quite lost. I have no idea whether i may have blown it purely because i didnt manage enough of the Diagrammatic Qs; irrelevant of how accurate i was with my answers. Or whether perhaps i did well in all of it but was let down on my response to the personality Qs, or whether i actually just screwed up everything??! I understand NATS' policy on not giving feedback but invariably right now, i have no idea what happened.

The fact i crashed'n burned at Stage 1... i dont know whether to be embarrassed, ashamed... I mean, what is the pass rate at Stage 1, anyone know? I mean jeez, im just at a loss.

So, in light of my lack of success, I would just like to wish anyone and everyone who has a stage anytime soon, the very, very best of luck. :ok:

A few years ago the pass rate of the stage 1 tests was around 30%

Buzz,

I know your pain. I suffered the same last week as had stage one in London. I thought I did ok, and I too got to question 33 on the diagrammatic tests! 33 is quite reasonable I believe, so you did ok there. In the first number matching one I got to 30, and in the letter matching I go to 32. The cube one I don't how many I did, most of the first section and only a few of the second, that was hard!

Where I think I fell down is on the personality test. I've spoken to people who have got through stage one and told them the answers I gave for the personality test, and they were always like, ah you shouldn't have put that, so I think it was the personlity and motivation paper that messed me up. It could be the same for you.

I am still absolutely gutted as I also felt I had a decent chance of getting through at least to stage two, and knowing people who are on the course, I feel I'd have a good chance of passing if selected....fingers crossed one day it happens.

I emailed NATS to see if they would at least tell me the areas I need to work on but I got a flat NO, but haven't tried ringing them so that might be worth a go.

I just want to say I know how you feel, ATC is the only career I want to do, so I'm not going to give up. 12 months will hopefully fly by...

If want to discuss it feel free to PM me, and we might conclude something, might be interesting to see what answers you gave for the personality test, as if we both put the same answers that could be where we went wrong!

Best of luck for the future,

Vic

Hello friendly people,

I've been lurking on this site for a day or two now and i'd like to say its been extremely helpful and i'd like to thank you all. I've recently been invited for a stage 2 assessement for the 25th of June....smack bang in the middle of my A-levels....nice. I'm a little nervous but also excited. Look forward to hearing how you all get on with your applications etc.

Luke x

Cheers Vic,
Yeah thats my other concern; granted i will never know if i did badly on the Ap tests but im fairly confident my accuracy was not my downfall. Thus, i concluded it must either be the Personality test or the lack of Qs answered on diagrammatical reasoning.
Im not here to have a pop at any part of the tests as i genuinely believe they all have their usage - however... :hmm: if i didnt get thru cos of that bleedin personality test... hmmm, i know they've already been talked about on this thread so will keep my rantings brief, but what annoys me most is you never get the opportunity to justify your answers. I mean i felt that so many statements were true; take the old 'leader or follower' example, i'll lead a group if it needs direction but in all fairness theres also times when i'll follow someone elses lead. Or, 'take the advice of experts?' well, if i know nothin about a subject, then yes, i would invariably take the advice of an expert without question and probably would never question him until i had expanded my own knowledge sufficiently?
And of course for every person that says "just be honest" someone else says "jeez why on earth did you put that??"...
Tis all experience, i'll make my notes as it were and busy myself for a yr until i get another crack when, hopefully, ...they'll have ditched the personality Qs... hehe na only kiddin ...when hopefully I will be successful :)
Buzz

What are your plans?
 

For those that were unsuccessful for whatever reason, what are your plans for the next 12 months?

I have just finished the personality test and like others, I agree that most of the times, it is hard to pick one least one when they all apply. Or simply that certain tasks requires different approaches.

course212, about to start CATC were given a Meyers-Briggs [sp] test with 80-something questions, don't know if its the same one as they give after stage 1, but at THIS stage the results are used for you to know a little bit more about yourself and your styles.
Its not so much a learning style questionnaire as we had one of those separately.

and one of the questions on this latest test was a right good-un:
"would you...
a) like to argue the meaning of most of the questions asked
b) say that they are mostly straight-forward!"

not too sure on the exact wording but i was in the 'I'm contradicting myself' stage, and that Q felt like it balanced it all out!

anyway its possible that the personality quiz after stage one is also given/should be given to people that have already failed. that way they can see what profile WOULDN'T pass the tests etc.

kind of like card-counting... you would be MORE sure of your assumption if you knew the cards you HADNT seen yet:confused:... and thereby not eliminating anyone in those mutually inclusive sets

stage 2
 

Hello, I've got my stage 2 assessment in 2 weeks time and was wondering if the test on the motivational document is computer based or is it like the motivational test at stage 1. Also, for the DST calculation questions are you allowed pencil and rough paper for calculations?

BTW for those who were asking for a source of practice DST Q's the book
Air Traffic Control, Career Prep. by Patrick Mattson has about 30 or so such questions and also some more on the accompanying CD-ROM.