SKOS
 

I heard that you are better off as area unless you get Heathrow (which is hard) to earn that pay. And it normally takes 15 years of service. This is what i was told at Stage 2

Seb

check in!!
 

hello everybody!!
this is my first post in this page and first of all i think you (all of you that usually post) are doing an excellent job, answering questions, posting pages with links, giving support to other users, etc so thank you!!

I did stage 1 on last 7th sept and I've received the answer today, It's negative, I am very very surprised about that, can anyone tell me HOW CAN I CHECK THE RESULT?? or HOW CAN I ASK ANYONE OF THE RECRUITMENT TO CHECK IT?? because I've read somewhere that sometimes they make a mistake sending emails with bad results to people, is it true??

thank you again

It has happened before. But generally people will then get another email informing them of the mistake. I'm afraid you may have not made it through this time round.

I'm pretty sure NATS HR know their own pass marks, I'm afraid its unlikely they've 'made a mistake'.

If you want to check the result, surely on the email you have received, there is a contact number or email address at the bottom? Or maybe check the NATS Recruitment website to look for the details? :ugh::cool:

I managed to get feedback, it just took a couple of minutes looking at the website and then at my emails to find the contact details. :hmm:

OMG! Just got a phone call from HR saying i've passed stage 3!!!!!! I'm absolutely buzzing! Can't belive how good I feel!!! Good luck to all those who sat stg3 on 8th Sept.

check in answers
 

I will read the email again and look for the contac but I think there is only the choice to reply the email,...:ugh:
maybe next year

thanks again

1) Generally it is surely possible that NATS have made a mistake - everybody does. Would not expect it to be too often though.

2) The HR phone number is to be found somewhere, I remember calling them like three times.

3) The HR are quite helpful over the phone, they are usually able to tell you which part you failed or how bad it was. (Not sure about stage 1, surely so with the stage 2)

4) I wouldn't be that surprised over a fail in stage 1 - quite honestly, that's where most people get fired. (Both in numbers and percentage.)

Seromero, were you the morning session on the 7th? I was, and i haven't heard yet. It seems pretty early to be hearing considering they said 15 working days.

test units
 

Just a quick question. On the stage 1 SDT questions, are the units miles or nautical miles?

Thanks.

The speeds and distances will all be in nm so no need to convert.

P-P-Powerbook,

I was at the morning session on the 7th of this month (Sep). Just heard back this afternoon.

I should think you'll hear back soon. I'd check you e-mail...


Anyhoo, onto next stage for me. Eep. Any advice for computer tests anyone?
Any books/practice tests I can do would be good.

Thanks all.
-A

PS. This was my first post on here, I'm just going to have a quick shufty round to try and find answers to my own questions.

Flaps
 

Thanks for that stuff about stage 3, it at least gives us a good idea of what to expect. Also did the day run through until 5 like it says, or did you finish early like in the other stages?

Seb,
I was sat next to the girl, pretty decent that a few of us got through! I'll look forward to nailing the group exercise with you!!

Paul

Hi Sebby,

Can you tell me the exact question you asked to generate that response? Moreover, did they say Heathrow is hard? Why? Or should I say, what do you think they mean by it is hard?

SKOS,

We were asked whether we wanted Area or Aerodrome and she said if pay was what you were after there are few tower jobs that have that high band of pay such as Heathrow. You are more likely to get that band in Area. In terms of hard, thats to do with validation, Heathrow has a high failure rate for validation compared to other places due to how busy it is. Does this help?

Seb

Hi there!
 

I have a few questions too if you don't mind. Are there any multiple choice answers provided in D/S/T questions, or are we required to provide ours in a written form? Do you remember if in both, cube plus diagramming tests there were any "none of these" options as a possible answer, & if yes, how many were there A-D or A-E? Thanks in advance.

Yes, I sat 7th sept not morning session but afternoon session, I really think it is too early (actually I want to think like this... it is my only help at this moment:ouch: )
anyway congratulations for all of those that have passed any of the stages :D(but I'm very very jealous...:E)
tomorrow I will try to find out if I can check the marks...
bye and thanks

CAVOKAY,

At stage 1 all tests are multiple choice including the DST questions.

For the cubes you have options A-E, of which E is "none of these".

I can't remember for sure but I think you had 5 options for the diagramming tests but they were all actual options rather than a "none of these" option..... I think.... anyone else able to confirm?

Stage 1
 

It's a long time I heard sam1 fail stage 1 on this forum. I have been very laid back in my preparation cos I don't have it till the 25th but it looks like I have to step up now.


Squicky bum time!

....not sure I want to ask!

You don't have a choice where you go so don't worry about the money - unless thats what you're after - in which case try another job!!

This is just another problem about banding - everyone wants to go to places because of the money. Your number one priority is to become a Controller, the rest is irrelevent

Basically though, you stay on a stupid scale after validation (3 years after finishing the college I believe) then you move onto the full scale, which takes up to 15 years to reach the top depending on what band you're in. The lower the band, the lower the top of the scale, the lower the money, the quicker you get there.

Extra cash comes in the form of OJTI after a couple of years of being valid, but again this draws in people to be OJTIs when they may not be suitable because they have a cash incentive to do it

And at the moment there's overtime

Hope this helps

Sebby
 

Sebby,

Thanks for the response which clarifies things further. I suppose from what you are saying, so long as you are in Heathrow or Swanwick, then eventually after about 15yrs service, you get over 90K - you don't necessarily need to have progressed on the ladder such as a watch manager/supervisor or unit manager to earn that much, is that right?

By the way, would it be Aero or Area for u?

Rogdabbit:

"You don't have a choice where you go so don't worry about the money - unless thats what you're after - in which case try another job!!"

There aren't too many people out there if any, who would suggest they really enjoy their job if the remuneration is poor! For anyone to suggest they like their job so much they don't care how much they are paid is hypocrisy in my books!! Except one is doing voluntary work I suppose.

As to where you finally find yourself, I think one's preference is taken into account subject to operational needs though so there is some degree of discretion on your part in terms of choice and what you want to do and be placed - I believe that's why the HR asked Sebby if they would prefer Aero or Area.

"Basically though, you stay on a stupid scale after validation (3 years after finishing the college I believe) then you move onto the full scale, which takes up to 15 years to reach the top depending on what band you're in. The lower the band, the lower the top of the scale, the lower the money, the quicker you get there."

Your use of the word "stupid scale" suggests to me you are talking about money, right?

Can you please let me know what OJTI is?

Pat42:

I meant 'squeeky bum time' - a slang i bliv i heard watching football.

SKOS

Don't get distracted by Rogdabbit's obsession with banding. It's just one of his/her hobbyhorses! :bored:

I think the point is that if you are only joining ATC with a view to earning £90k in 15 years' time, you will probably find that that motivation is not going to be enough to keep you going through the sometimes tough periods you will experience on the road through selection, the College and validation training. The majority of people who I know in ATC do it because they are interested in and enjoy it. The remuneration is of course good, but it's not the prime motivator.

OJTI: On the Job Training Instructor. There is an extra payment for training others in the form of a step up the pay scale and also quarterly payments for the hours someone actually trains someone else. Again, selection should be on suitability and motivation for the task, not (as in some cases) on having been valid for the minimum of two years.

Yes there is an automatically-advancing pay scale every year. So if you are successful as an ATCO you can do that for the rest of your career and you will reach the top of the scale in around 15 years. In some cases, you might end up earning more than the ATCO managers around you who are of a higher grade but who don't get extra payments for training or being examiners. That's a sore point for some people!!

It really doesn't make that much difference where you end up. The job's great, and top of the scale at Swanwick and Heathrow is now over £90k with shift allowance. At Scottish it is about £80k, reducing to about £65k at the smaller airfields such as Southampton and Luton. None of those are to be sniffed at, as you will know from a glance through the Appointments section of the Sunday papers and see what you need to do in the real world to earn that!!

SKOS
 

Hey, my initial instinct was Aero but am leaning towards Area now. I'll know more after my tower visit next week. At the end of the day the potential earning says a lot, but i need to look at it that i won't be getting that much for a long time. So may aswell go for what i would enjoy more.

Seb

Aero or Area
 

Is it really a fixed path once you decide? :sad: does anyone know if its possible to retrain later in your career? I mean theres no Areas within 3hours of me, while i know the mobility clause could put me anywhere, theres not alot to choose from if you're Area? Hence never being able to work near my home-town....Ever! :{.

Even if you did aero you could quite easily be sent a long way from home, NATS work at airfields the entire length of the country and from everything I've heard you really don't get a significant say in where you get sent (I believe they will ask for your preference, but its the last thing on their list of considerations when deciding where to send you). NATS make this all pretty clear before you apply, so if you're serious about the job then you have to be prepared to go anywhere they send you.

I get the impression that once you've been sent to a unit there generally isn't a lot of movement. If for some reason NATS decide to move you then of course they would retrain you... but I don't get they impression they are particularly open to you wanting to move.

The other thing to remember is that if you choose area and want to remain in the UK then there is only 1 employer. If you want to leave NATS, you're snookered. With Aero at least there a few other employers out there. Aero gives you a better view too :ok:

From what I've learnt through speaking in person to ATCOs, successful candidates of the recruitment process will normally be asked of their preference between Area and Aerodrome. However, ultimately NATS must allocate Trainees onto courses in accordance with their business needs.

Another interesting point I picked up is that aside from the business needs, NATS may look into the profile of the individual candidate to determine which discipline would suit them better.


---

This is a side note, and probably slightly off topic, but given the PPRuNe is a professional forum, would it not be courteous to adhere to usage of correct spelling, punctuation and grammar whilst using the various pages available? Please correct me if I'm kicking up a fuss over nothing, but the 'text speak' becoming prevalent in many recent posts has been irritating me to a certain extent.

I've not heard of them picking people for either Aero/Area based on how they've done at interview - they haven't really seen enough of you yet to decide something like that.

Course availability and preference are the main (and maybe only) factors - the Aero courses are in a bit of a mess at the moment, so if people want to start at the college asap, I think Area is the best bet.

Yes, of course the business needs and preference are the two main factors.

But if they do choose to consider the individual candidate in order to place him/her onto a suitable course, it's not just their performance at the interview that's taken into consideration.

You'd be surprised at how much information from personality questionnaires and psychometric testing can be analysed to tell a lot about a particular candidate, and consequently, help indicate where they might be more likely to perform at better levels. :)

I agree that they can show these things, but as far as I know, that isn't how they're being used at this time. Everyone on my Aero course and the corresponding Area course were on their respective courses based on their choice, and if that choice wasn't possible, the availability of a course at the right time for them.

This is just how I see things at the college though - maybe there is more going on behind the scenes that we don't see!

Pugwash4x4
Glad someone is on my wavelength re salary, us Brits have a tendancy to be ashamed of asking to be paid. I too am considering a career change, its only right to consider the renumeration, risk and reward of the said career, after all, if it was solely job satisfaction i strived for, id be helping people less fortunate than I am. As pugwash stated we all have bills to pay, and unfortunatley money is the only currency.

People shouldnt be embarassed about being paid, remember your employers goals are just as capitalist. I see it as a healthy offset.

Inky/Pugwash

You'll start at college on the square root of sod all, maybe £900pm take home, thats including the accom payment. College lasts between 4 months (Aero) and 11 months (Area). Add in another 4 months for a failed course and possibly 3 more for a business hold, and if you are unlucky you could be there 2 years.

On leaving college, dependant on where you are posted, you'll get between £15-18k p.a. (+ maybe london weighting). Believe theres still a one off payment when you leave college of £1000 for relocation.

Again, unit dependant, validation takes between 6 months up to (i guess) 3 years? Area usually takes longer than Aero during Live training. Upon Validation, unit dependant, you move to the Valid Trainee point, which is between £34-39k (inclusive of shift pay)

Then on third anniversary of starting college, assuming you are valid, you move to the main ATCO scale, and progress a point up this scale per year till you get to the top. Add in extra point for OJTI duties, 12-15 years to the top of the tree, which is between 65-90+k.

There is also flat rate overtime per shift available at some units.

Hi AJ7,

Your responses are very informative and thorough - thanks. On the issue of where one is posted post college, I wonder if NATS would consider to any extent at all your personal preference for a particular unit say Heathrow or Gatwick taking into account, operational needs and the mobility clause you sign?

They take your preference into account, but its after everything else. Business need comes first everytime. Id suggest they would do what they could to try and get you to a unit you would be happy with, but its definitely a factor to consider before you start college... you could be sent anywhere the business need dictates.

KitKat,

I don't think they could class you as medically unfit because of a history of depression (they could only do so if you currently suffer from it). That said, I think emotional stability is one of the core competencies they ask you about at interview, so this may come up then and I can see how they may possibly decide a candidate may be unsuitable on this basis... it's a tough one, I guess you just have to be honest about it (both with NATS at interview and also with yourself when deciding whether or not this really is the right job for you).

Personally I have been a little worried about this myself, I also have a history of depression and am certainly going to be preparing myself to answer questions on it. In my case the depression was brought on as a result of an adverse reaction to medication I was prescribed for another condition, so I think I can reasonably argue that a) it is well in my past (no symptoms for over three and a half years now) and b) there is no significant evidence that I show any propensity towards emotional instability as the depression was the side effect of the medication I was taking rather than part of any kind of breakdown or failure to cope under pressure.

Hmmm... regarding your friend, it might be worth asking someone at NATS what their position on it is. I have to say, having been in that place, I'm not sure I would have wanted to embark on quite such a notoriously pressured career at that stage in my life (I know that at that point I wouldn't have coped with it). But then everybody is different.

Pat42
 

Thanks a lot for the info, I couldn't remember what it was like since I sat stage 1 last year but sadly failed, though the tests were slightly different. However, I'm preparing myself much much harder to have a go again by the end of this year, fingers crossed I hope I get through this time.
Anyway, thanks again for the information, & good luck to all candidates who are about to sit the tests, also the very best of luck to those who are waiting for their results regardless stage.

whitelighter
 

Hi there, I know I might be rushing ahead in advance, but having read a thread by whitelighter about " Stage 2 Revised" on page 155, which describes the FEAST computer tests, what kind of spoken English test is this? Is there an interview included at stage 2?
Could you please advise, thank you.

Its all a bit hazy now as it was 6 months ago, but the spoken english test is just that - the computer will read a series of sentences to you, and you have to correctly identify the meaning.

For example, the computer may say 'Every morning Mr Jones drives his car to work along the motorway before parking in the car park'

The multiple choice options would then be:

1) Mr Jones works at night

2) Mr Jones uses public transport to get to work

3) Mr Jones has is own car

4) Mr Jones is a plumber

Of those four statements, only one is right (No. 3 of course).

What they are testing is that you correctly understand spoken English and can translate it to the correct meaning.

The above example is probably a bit simplistic, but it gives you an idea of what they test. It is nothing to do with ATC, and all to do with understanding communciation in English.

There is no interview at stage 2, just the computer tests.

Hope that helps.