New ATC Documentary on BBC2
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Pie Man replied to me:
Perhaps we should treat the airspace above the UK as a national resource for the use of all, much like the roads are. Or at least as they used to be until the government introduced tolls, congestion charges etc.
My problem at the moment is that I see myself paying a large and increasing amount in taxation, both direct and indirect, yet I really don't see a large and increasing improvement in the quality of the country - schools, hospitals, roads, ATC staffing levels, you name it, I bet there have been cuts in the last ten years (and in the ten years prior to that, and...). Something, somewhere is going badly wrong. My personal feeling is that the root cause is that there are too many people looking out for their own little empire and too few looking out for the good of the country as a whole. I'm not trying to point the finger at any individual or group here - my comment is a general one aimed at almost everyone, including myself. The end result is that there are too many people making too much money at the expense of society rather than for the benefit of society.
What I feel is needed is a strong lead towards a more selfless way of thinking about things: taking aviation for an example (this IS PPRuNe after all!) why should the air traffic service around Heathrow be paid for by the users of Heathrow? BAA don't own the airspace. NATS don't own the airspace. The people of the country own the airspace, and they all get some benefit from it, whether through holiday flights or freight imported by air and sold in the shops at low prices. Therefore everyone should pay for the technical facilities and controllers who make the use of the airspace possible, through national taxes.
Too radical? Probably
I guess there's nothing for it - I'll just HAVE to get a Green Card and go live in the States! 
Cheers,
MD.
Bit of a problem there the number of LARS units is ever decreasing, controller shortages and cash may not be available to upgrade the present system - would the GA comunity like to pay more for the service?
My problem at the moment is that I see myself paying a large and increasing amount in taxation, both direct and indirect, yet I really don't see a large and increasing improvement in the quality of the country - schools, hospitals, roads, ATC staffing levels, you name it, I bet there have been cuts in the last ten years (and in the ten years prior to that, and...). Something, somewhere is going badly wrong. My personal feeling is that the root cause is that there are too many people looking out for their own little empire and too few looking out for the good of the country as a whole. I'm not trying to point the finger at any individual or group here - my comment is a general one aimed at almost everyone, including myself. The end result is that there are too many people making too much money at the expense of society rather than for the benefit of society.
What I feel is needed is a strong lead towards a more selfless way of thinking about things: taking aviation for an example (this IS PPRuNe after all!) why should the air traffic service around Heathrow be paid for by the users of Heathrow? BAA don't own the airspace. NATS don't own the airspace. The people of the country own the airspace, and they all get some benefit from it, whether through holiday flights or freight imported by air and sold in the shops at low prices. Therefore everyone should pay for the technical facilities and controllers who make the use of the airspace possible, through national taxes.
Too radical? Probably
I guess there's nothing for it - I'll just HAVE to get a Green Card and go live in the States! Cheers,
MD.
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In one part of the programme a civil pilot who had had an Airprox with a military aircraft stated "as I was flying through the Vale of York", he might well of started off by saying "as I was swimming off the Great Barrier Reef with a pork chop tied round my neck". When will these people realise that if you fly around an area that has a large concentration of fast jets in it you may well meet one sooner or latter. The fact that its not controlled airspace is irrelevant. If the UK military adopted the same rules as the US or Australians and introduced controlled airspace that was regulated by the individual military airfields or area units, the same aircraft could have been doing the same thing provided, in the pilots view, he was still VMC. We have all been stung by an ac popping out of low level but that is exactly why ATCROCAS were written to provide advice and information and not to guarantee separation. If you don’t want this type of service don’t fly in that airspace, it may mean a slightly longer trip but it would also mean that you wont see any sharks. 
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I have to say having watched as an SLF, and hopefully a future Miltary Pilot (I'm in the Cadets atm), that I was surprised at the amount of empahsis putting the blame on the Fast Jets, when aircraft are transiting through airspace that is 'off the beaten track' and regularly used by those aircraft especially in areas of high usage by them (e.g Kinloss/Lossie & Wash Area).
there's blame for incidents, but the way it was shown seemed a tad harsh.
Jordan
there's blame for incidents, but the way it was shown seemed a tad harsh.
Jordan
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Well what about all the passenger aircraft on Advisory routes that our pointy headed friends with their arses on fire seem to ignore ? THAT is an accident waiting to happen. Tornados out of Lossie and Leuchars, other NATO fastjets, controlled? by AWACS who have no concept that these are civil aircraft and that the civil ATCO is trying to avoid them. It's bad airmanship from the military.
What if someone were to fly an aircraft outside the ATZ of an RAF base but inside the MATZ without bothering to speak to the RAF ATC ? Same idea !! So why can't mil jets do the smart thing and recognize Advisory Routes, and get a radar service before crossing.
That would be a good topic for a program, but of the course the BBC never bother to venture (too far) north of Hadrian's Wall.
What if someone were to fly an aircraft outside the ATZ of an RAF base but inside the MATZ without bothering to speak to the RAF ATC ? Same idea !! So why can't mil jets do the smart thing and recognize Advisory Routes, and get a radar service before crossing.
That would be a good topic for a program, but of the course the BBC never bother to venture (too far) north of Hadrian's Wall.
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CPDLC.
Have to agree with BIK116.8 on this, so far as it's use in the Pacific is a great improvement. OVER HF. However, the oz experience showed that where VHF is available, it is far more preferable to use that. It is much faster. But I can certainly see the day where CPDLC will be used in preference to VHF. You know when that day will be, BIK116.8? The day they take human pilots out of the loop. So be careful what you wish for. You may be a rabid controller-hater, but guess what? All that vitriol you spit at us (computers will be able to do it better than you etc) applies equally to pilots. So when we are both out of a job, with the ATC computer directly feeding sequencing instructions into the onboard FMS, you'll be able smile smugly and say "I told you so!". Be careful what you wish for.
ps. What language would you like the CPDLC instructions to arrive in? English, French, Basic, Java.............
Have to agree with BIK116.8 on this, so far as it's use in the Pacific is a great improvement. OVER HF. However, the oz experience showed that where VHF is available, it is far more preferable to use that. It is much faster. But I can certainly see the day where CPDLC will be used in preference to VHF. You know when that day will be, BIK116.8? The day they take human pilots out of the loop. So be careful what you wish for. You may be a rabid controller-hater, but guess what? All that vitriol you spit at us (computers will be able to do it better than you etc) applies equally to pilots. So when we are both out of a job, with the ATC computer directly feeding sequencing instructions into the onboard FMS, you'll be able smile smugly and say "I told you so!". Be careful what you wish for.
ps. What language would you like the CPDLC instructions to arrive in? English, French, Basic, Java.............
Short Blunt Shock
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PH-UKU,
We are well aware of the advisory routes and get our traffic info from London Mil. (AWACS???) You say it's 'an accident waiting to happen'. Well, it hasn't happened because we know where the traffic is and avoid it.
One doesn't get to become a pilot in the military without knowing one's @rse from one's elbow. A mil pilot who displays any tendencies of 'bad airmanship' would not remain in the military for long. The only 'bad airmanship' here comes from civvie halfwits taking shortcuts across well known (and well publicised) mil AIAAs, then complaining about an airprox. And on the subject of GA idiots in MATZs with no R/T call, it happens on a daily basis.
We are well aware of the advisory routes and get our traffic info from London Mil. (AWACS???) You say it's 'an accident waiting to happen'. Well, it hasn't happened because we know where the traffic is and avoid it.
One doesn't get to become a pilot in the military without knowing one's @rse from one's elbow. A mil pilot who displays any tendencies of 'bad airmanship' would not remain in the military for long. The only 'bad airmanship' here comes from civvie halfwits taking shortcuts across well known (and well publicised) mil AIAAs, then complaining about an airprox. And on the subject of GA idiots in MATZs with no R/T call, it happens on a daily basis.
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BIK_116.whatever
I'm sure that Datalink works very well over the Pacific where there is probably 1 aircraft per zillion square miles, nice little toy for the boys to experiment with without having to use nasty HF.
That system will not translate to Europe or the coastal USA without MUCH work, there are more aircraft airborne there at any time than exist in Oz in total, and in about 25% of the area, all going in different directions, climbing and descending to different destinations. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the work and experience will prove useful in defining the final solution, and I am in no doubt that Datalink will form a very large part of our lives at some point ahead in en-route environments, but as to translating it to terminal ops, then that is a step further. Let's cross one bridge at a time.
Ah, I get it now, you are from Oz and possibly an ATC person - you ALREADY think you fly the aircraft, ne c'est pas [French, for your benefit].
I'm sure that Datalink works very well over the Pacific where there is probably 1 aircraft per zillion square miles, nice little toy for the boys to experiment with without having to use nasty HF.
That system will not translate to Europe or the coastal USA without MUCH work, there are more aircraft airborne there at any time than exist in Oz in total, and in about 25% of the area, all going in different directions, climbing and descending to different destinations. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the work and experience will prove useful in defining the final solution, and I am in no doubt that Datalink will form a very large part of our lives at some point ahead in en-route environments, but as to translating it to terminal ops, then that is a step further. Let's cross one bridge at a time.
Ah, I get it now, you are from Oz and possibly an ATC person - you ALREADY think you fly the aircraft, ne c'est pas [French, for your benefit].
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ICAO Annex 6 'Operation of Aircraft' makes no statement that I can find, directly or indirectly, as to the language to be used for RT etc.
Language requirements for R/T are in Annex 1 and Annex 10.
The requirements have just been updated and now encompass pilots as well as air traffic controllers.
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ferris makes a good point which I fully endorse.
Maybe we should all just get our brains embalmed in a comfortable pot of goo with a drip feed of Stella Artois and let the computers do everything.
Maybe we should all just get our brains embalmed in a comfortable pot of goo with a drip feed of Stella Artois and let the computers do everything.
16 blades, you are wrong. Might I suggest you take a visit to ScOACC and ask them what happens on the advisory routes.
(edited to say, radar707, I trust that an 18yo Dalwhinnie will suffice )
(edited to say, radar707, I trust that an 18yo Dalwhinnie will suffice
)
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ModernDinosaur,
You mean an Air Traffic service provided by, and funded by the UK Government? A Civil Service, so to speak? That rings a bell......I'm sure I've herd of that before somewhere!
You mean an Air Traffic service provided by, and funded by the UK Government? A Civil Service, so to speak? That rings a bell......I'm sure I've herd of that before somewhere!
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Ah, I get it now, you are from Oz and possibly an ATC person - you ALREADY think you fly the aircraft, ne c'est pas [French, for your benefit].
Last edited by eastern wiseguy; 5th Aug 2003 at 19:36.
Thread Starter
Next episode details...
"Crowded Skies
Sun 10 Aug, 9:00 pm - 10:00 pm 60mins
In 1977 the world's worst ever air accident claimed the lives of some 583 people when two aircraft collided in thick fog on a runway on the island of Tenerife. Unable to see through the fog, the air traffic controller responsible for guiding the jets didn't even know they'd collided. In 2001 a remarkably similar accident occurred at Milan, when again, two aircraft at the airport collided in heavy fog. This programme asks how, 24 years after the catastrophe that was Tenerife, history was able to repeat itself with the tragic loss of over a hundred lives?"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/listings..._4224_62800_60
LXGB
"Crowded Skies
Sun 10 Aug, 9:00 pm - 10:00 pm 60mins
In 1977 the world's worst ever air accident claimed the lives of some 583 people when two aircraft collided in thick fog on a runway on the island of Tenerife. Unable to see through the fog, the air traffic controller responsible for guiding the jets didn't even know they'd collided. In 2001 a remarkably similar accident occurred at Milan, when again, two aircraft at the airport collided in heavy fog. This programme asks how, 24 years after the catastrophe that was Tenerife, history was able to repeat itself with the tragic loss of over a hundred lives?"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/listings..._4224_62800_60
LXGB
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Gonzo asked:
At least then we knew our tax money was going to provide a useful service. Now we have less idea where the money goes and a less useful service (not through any fault on the part of those at "the sharp end" I hasten to add).
Is this what they call progress?!
MD
You mean an Air Traffic service provided by, and funded by the UK Government? A Civil Service, so to speak? That rings a bell......I'm sure I've herd of that before somewhere!
Is this what they call progress?!
MD
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I'm very ambivalent about DataLinking's usefulness and value.
For one thing, as the programme pointed out, there are many systems under trial, none of which are compatible with any others.
Furthermore, its usefulness will be circumscribed by how many aircraft in a sector are fitted with the necessary equipment.
Next, it will actually reduce situational awareness since you will "hear" no instructions to other aircraft.
Finally, since situational awareness will be degraded quite considerably, there is no ability to question an instruction that appears erroneous.
For one thing, as the programme pointed out, there are many systems under trial, none of which are compatible with any others.
Furthermore, its usefulness will be circumscribed by how many aircraft in a sector are fitted with the necessary equipment.
Next, it will actually reduce situational awareness since you will "hear" no instructions to other aircraft.
Finally, since situational awareness will be degraded quite considerably, there is no ability to question an instruction that appears erroneous.
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PH-UKU makes the point of advisory routes in scotland and mil fast jets. As the responsibility for the vast majority of these advisory routes have been turned over to Millitary ATC ie Lossiemouth I cant understand what he is talking about. civil ac quite merrily ply there trade up and down them in the safe knowledge that controllers used to dealing with unidentified conflicting traffic are looking after them. The amount of times I have seen civil sector controllers wait until the last miniute to find out what is going on is the real scary issue.
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Vale Of York
The program had both ligitimate and sensationalised points -lets face it, though, if it didnt it wouldnt have made on tv.
I thought the problem of aircraft flying through the Vale of York being at risk from unpredictable military traffic was wrongly attributed to ATC, surely if the airlines chose to fly outside of the airways system they are the ones putting passengers at risk. They could rectify this by sticking to the airways. The capt they interviewed should be thanking the controller for giving him avoiding action and reviewing his decisions while making a flight plan
I thought the problem of aircraft flying through the Vale of York being at risk from unpredictable military traffic was wrongly attributed to ATC, surely if the airlines chose to fly outside of the airways system they are the ones putting passengers at risk. They could rectify this by sticking to the airways. The capt they interviewed should be thanking the controller for giving him avoiding action and reviewing his decisions while making a flight plan
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Jack-Oh, civil controllers don't wait until the last minute, we provide a service as do the military controllers, and i don't want this to turn into a civil v military slagging match because we all do the same job, albeit slightly differently.
the fact is that outside CAS, form Scottish, you will only get a RIS, from Glasgow, you will generally get a RAS (again subject to terrain safe level restrictions), my understanding (and it is very limited) from Scottish Mil, you wil get a RAS subject to level and then a RIS.
Outside CAS, anybody can fly with/out a radio or transponder and can do whatever the hell they like.
We controllers have to do our best to stop the aircraft we do and do not KNOW about bumping into each other.
Maybe if more pilots chose to actually call an ATC unit for a service then the less work the Airprox board will have to do.
I will never understand why pilots choose to fly in known areas of high intensity military traffic (Vale of york for example) and not contact a relevant ATC unit. (Is Linton still open???)
Our job is all about safety, inside CAS (A-D) it's fairly easy, E is a class unto it's own and always will be, outside controlled airspace we can only do our best to advise traffic we are working and pass the relevant traffic information or avoiding action depending on the service being provided.
But just how many pilots know the difference between RIS and RAS and their responsibilities.
or for those flying in the Scottish TMA (Class E) are aware that it is technically an unknown environment?????
the fact is that outside CAS, form Scottish, you will only get a RIS, from Glasgow, you will generally get a RAS (again subject to terrain safe level restrictions), my understanding (and it is very limited) from Scottish Mil, you wil get a RAS subject to level and then a RIS.
Outside CAS, anybody can fly with/out a radio or transponder and can do whatever the hell they like.
We controllers have to do our best to stop the aircraft we do and do not KNOW about bumping into each other.
Maybe if more pilots chose to actually call an ATC unit for a service then the less work the Airprox board will have to do.
I will never understand why pilots choose to fly in known areas of high intensity military traffic (Vale of york for example) and not contact a relevant ATC unit. (Is Linton still open???)
Our job is all about safety, inside CAS (A-D) it's fairly easy, E is a class unto it's own and always will be, outside controlled airspace we can only do our best to advise traffic we are working and pass the relevant traffic information or avoiding action depending on the service being provided.
But just how many pilots know the difference between RIS and RAS and their responsibilities.
or for those flying in the Scottish TMA (Class E) are aware that it is technically an unknown environment?????
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TheRev:-
You miss one major point the programme was trying to make, which is that there are a significant number of regional airports in the UK that have very limited or non-existent access to the airways, and that we have to go off-airways to get to and from those airports.
Were all airlines to keep to controlled airspace at all times, the operating costs of many routes would immediately make them totally unviable as a commercial prospect.
As the person interviewed, who skippered that flight through the Vale of York, yes, I could have told the company that I didn't intend to fly that route, and intended to route down the NORCA to GASKO and then head off to STN. They would probably have decided they could function quite nicely without my assistance. In my (fairly long) career I have had a few airmisses. The instance discussed in the programme was one of the hairiest, and was caused by a foreign mil. pilot who didn't understand the rules of operation of UK airspace.
My backside was saved by a Pennine controller who was very much on the ball (as they always were) who gave me a very good service. I thanked him at the time for his very professional service, and sent another message of thanks through our ops later.
I suggest that you save your criticism of airlines and pilots for a time when you have accumulated a little knowledge of how the system works.
You miss one major point the programme was trying to make, which is that there are a significant number of regional airports in the UK that have very limited or non-existent access to the airways, and that we have to go off-airways to get to and from those airports.
Were all airlines to keep to controlled airspace at all times, the operating costs of many routes would immediately make them totally unviable as a commercial prospect.
As the person interviewed, who skippered that flight through the Vale of York, yes, I could have told the company that I didn't intend to fly that route, and intended to route down the NORCA to GASKO and then head off to STN. They would probably have decided they could function quite nicely without my assistance. In my (fairly long) career I have had a few airmisses. The instance discussed in the programme was one of the hairiest, and was caused by a foreign mil. pilot who didn't understand the rules of operation of UK airspace.
My backside was saved by a Pennine controller who was very much on the ball (as they always were) who gave me a very good service. I thanked him at the time for his very professional service, and sent another message of thanks through our ops later.
I suggest that you save your criticism of airlines and pilots for a time when you have accumulated a little knowledge of how the system works.